Pilot-drain - The new aviation crisis
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Still doubt they will get a pay rise though
Aussie
I agree with the sentiments of the article, last year saw a record in terms of new aircraft orders, over 20,000 pilots alone will be required to crew those aircraft.
The order last year saw a large demand from India, where I understand that the domestic civil pilot training capability is less than 200 pilots a year. The situation in Australia is by no means as grave as India.
One of the reasons I see the drain for pilots overseas has a lot to do with QF HR. The way they stuff people around in the interview process, hold files etc is demoralizing, and in my view unethical. They have been interviewing people for months now knowing no courses are coming up, this is at the expense of the applicant.
I understand that they have not hired a pilot for some time, however they are still testing and interviewing many applicants when there is not real course date.
QF need to rapidly change its recruitment process to recruit only from its subsidiary airlines, make cadets fly with the subsidiary airlines, and everyone on the same level playing field in terms of seniority.
In my view RFDS requirements correctly reflect the experience levels needed in order to pass the training and to do the job. I remember 4 new applicants did not pass their training in one year in the section I was in.
RFDS is an all or nothing operation, the nature of the work is that you can be thrown into a large mixture of flying on any one day.
I loved my time at the RFDS, the best organisation I have EVER worked for, I felt like I contributed to the community, and those personal rewards I cannot put a price tag on.
We were lucky with the chief pilot and C&T team that we had. In terms of standards, ability, and personal qualities, you would have to look long and hard to better elsewhere.
Everyone has different career goals, for many the RFDS is their goal, and are very happy with it. Money or a big flash widebody is not everyone’s goal, it does not interest many, and does not provide the same sort of job satisfaction.
Yes sounds like Steve, however to be fair, he is a manager and had to also look after the organisations interest. If he had funding for airline style wages for his crew, they would pay them, you cannot pump unlimited funds from a fairly dry well.
EBA negotiations are a game, a game where the employees are not holding the upper hand.
Good luck next round.
The order last year saw a large demand from India, where I understand that the domestic civil pilot training capability is less than 200 pilots a year. The situation in Australia is by no means as grave as India.
One of the reasons I see the drain for pilots overseas has a lot to do with QF HR. The way they stuff people around in the interview process, hold files etc is demoralizing, and in my view unethical. They have been interviewing people for months now knowing no courses are coming up, this is at the expense of the applicant.
I understand that they have not hired a pilot for some time, however they are still testing and interviewing many applicants when there is not real course date.
QF need to rapidly change its recruitment process to recruit only from its subsidiary airlines, make cadets fly with the subsidiary airlines, and everyone on the same level playing field in terms of seniority.
Where operators such as the RFDS require such inflated high experience before considering an applicant, then no wonder they have trouble trying to attract someone to live in the outback. Why fly a Kingair or PC12 in the bush competing with millions of flies for your steak and eggs when you can go overseas and fly to exotic destinations and stay at top class hotels on a better salary and this is available with less flying experience than it takes to qualify for the RFDS.
RFDS is an all or nothing operation, the nature of the work is that you can be thrown into a large mixture of flying on any one day.
I loved my time at the RFDS, the best organisation I have EVER worked for, I felt like I contributed to the community, and those personal rewards I cannot put a price tag on.
We were lucky with the chief pilot and C&T team that we had. In terms of standards, ability, and personal qualities, you would have to look long and hard to better elsewhere.
Everyone has different career goals, for many the RFDS is their goal, and are very happy with it. Money or a big flash widebody is not everyone’s goal, it does not interest many, and does not provide the same sort of job satisfaction.
EBA negotiations are a game, a game where the employees are not holding the upper hand.
Good luck next round.
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Another factor is that RAAF pay seems to be finally overtaking what is on offer at airlines such as JetStar.
PAF can probably confirm this but sources say that a six year Flight Lieutenant is now on around 105k per year with another pay rise, significantly more than CPI, on the way.
This means that a change of job into the right seat of a Jetstar 787, on the package negotiated by the ....erudite... JPC, is now a significant pay drop even if you discount the 30k they will charge you for the endorsement.
Jobs at Qantas will also look a lot less attractive. Word is that the S/O briefing this week will reveal that new-hire S/O's will be on an AWA. QF is also asking CASA to approve dual endorsements for the A380/A330 for these pilots. What is the rate they will be paid for this flexibility? A330 rates.
All this means is that Qantas/ J* will less and less be the airlines of choice for anyone leaving the RAAF. They will be looking to take their skills elsewhere.
PAF can probably confirm this but sources say that a six year Flight Lieutenant is now on around 105k per year with another pay rise, significantly more than CPI, on the way.
This means that a change of job into the right seat of a Jetstar 787, on the package negotiated by the ....erudite... JPC, is now a significant pay drop even if you discount the 30k they will charge you for the endorsement.
Jobs at Qantas will also look a lot less attractive. Word is that the S/O briefing this week will reveal that new-hire S/O's will be on an AWA. QF is also asking CASA to approve dual endorsements for the A380/A330 for these pilots. What is the rate they will be paid for this flexibility? A330 rates.
All this means is that Qantas/ J* will less and less be the airlines of choice for anyone leaving the RAAF. They will be looking to take their skills elsewhere.
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Gee what a surprise someone from a flying school (good ole Wendy Dow) spouting of about a pilot shortage 
I suppose she was also telling everyone about the glut of pilots a few years back??? Anway its the same ol drival she has like many flying schools spout....yawn.....
I suppose she was also telling everyone about the glut of pilots a few years back??? Anway its the same ol drival she has like many flying schools spout....yawn.....
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As mentioned a RAAF FLTLT (6 years) earns 104K + 12% pay rise over 3 years + super 18% of salary and increasing. With options to fly the A330 tanker (now called the KC-30B), the C17, 737 NG why would you leave to fly an A320 with J* on less money, working much harder and with reduced job security.
That said, with Cathay announcing the purchase of 18 777ERs and hiring heavily, offering a much better career structure and potential Australian basing, why would a qualified candidate sign an AWA with Qantas and potentially be at the whim of future Dixon changes.
The Australian aviation market is presently playing up on the desire for some pilots to return home from overseas operations. However, things are starting to tighten and potential Q and J* candidates (of quality) will now start to reject proposed conditions and move into more luctrative markets.
I just hope this bites mangement and the tide turns once again.
That said, with Cathay announcing the purchase of 18 777ERs and hiring heavily, offering a much better career structure and potential Australian basing, why would a qualified candidate sign an AWA with Qantas and potentially be at the whim of future Dixon changes.
The Australian aviation market is presently playing up on the desire for some pilots to return home from overseas operations. However, things are starting to tighten and potential Q and J* candidates (of quality) will now start to reject proposed conditions and move into more luctrative markets.
I just hope this bites mangement and the tide turns once again.
Look around overseas, admittedly difficult and expensive if you don't have a reasonable type on your licence, but there are jobs around. Once management realise that pilots won't accept KMART money just because the job is based in Oz the pay will be more inline with what's on offer abroad.
If Virgin Blue were based in Kabul or Port Moresby their filing cabinet wouldn't be full of applications from highly suitable candidates willing to take a pay cut just to get to Brisbane.
Expand your horizon a bit, do yourself and everyone else a world of good
If Virgin Blue were based in Kabul or Port Moresby their filing cabinet wouldn't be full of applications from highly suitable candidates willing to take a pay cut just to get to Brisbane.
Expand your horizon a bit, do yourself and everyone else a world of good
Grandpa Aerotart
In talking to mates who are working as expats and have been offered J* contracts which they have knocked back perhaps the worm is turning...the lure of Oz is not enough for some.
But I am at a loss to understand how admitting aviation to the HECS system will help shorten the lines of unemployed pilots...I think it would lower the barriers to this career even further...which is not a good thing.
But I am at a loss to understand how admitting aviation to the HECS system will help shorten the lines of unemployed pilots...I think it would lower the barriers to this career even further...which is not a good thing.
I predicted this years ago- when VB pilots blasted on to the scene paying for their training and undercutting all and sundry. Overseas airlines would base pilots in Australia, in numbers, taking advantage of the 'race to the bottom' mentality afflicting local professionals.
It's not just a domestic thing either. Australian pilots abroad seem to be the first to break ranks, look after themselves and undercut with a short term outlook.
If you can't beat them, join them! Financially, I am just a few years away from being able to afford to fly an airliner in Oz for 40K a year.
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pilot shortage-Hmmmm
I applied to RFDS South east section.
I was told I do not meet the required experience.
I have 6000Hrs total.
2000 Multi command.
600 night.
I am now on hold for an asian job.
Better pay, 6 on/ 2 off.
I was told I do not meet the required experience.
I have 6000Hrs total.
2000 Multi command.
600 night.
I am now on hold for an asian job.
Better pay, 6 on/ 2 off.
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Just bought my third house (my retirement plan) and I am looking into a bit of commercial property as well.............
Chimbu is right, the lure of OZ, or NZ for that matter is there, but not for a 50% pay cut
If the part funding system is introduced, the outcome will be identical to what happened in NZ.........hundreds more low-time, no life experience, fresh out of school, wannabe airline pilots, all sold a dream with no real prospects of a job
Chimbu is right, the lure of OZ, or NZ for that matter is there, but not for a 50% pay cut
If the part funding system is introduced, the outcome will be identical to what happened in NZ.........hundreds more low-time, no life experience, fresh out of school, wannabe airline pilots, all sold a dream with no real prospects of a job
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That's basically correct PAF. And it sucks. Defence Super is a joke in almost every respect. None of the super is funded. Everything written on your Super statement with the exception of your own contributions is 'notional'!
What the guys above are saying though is true - RAAF salary and no frills airline wages have converged markedly. One going up. The other starting at a very low benchmark (for major airline flying). The work hours wouldn't be any better either.
What the guys above are saying though is true - RAAF salary and no frills airline wages have converged markedly. One going up. The other starting at a very low benchmark (for major airline flying). The work hours wouldn't be any better either.
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That's basically correct PAF. And it sucks. Defence Super is a joke in almost every respect. None of the super is funded. Everything written on your Super statement with the exception of your own contributions is 'notional'!
I contribute the bare legal minimum to MSBS and salary sacrifice into my own fund. Guess which one's doing HEAPS better?!
As someone else hinted at earlier, the phrase "pilot shortage" is quite mis-leading. "Experienced pilot shortage" is more accurate. I personally view the European/Asian trend of recruiting pilots straight out flying schools into the RHS of an RPT jet with some trepidation.
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I applied to RFDS South east section.
I was told I do not meet the required experience.
I have 6000Hrs total.
2000 Multi command.
600 night.
I was told I do not meet the required experience.
I have 6000Hrs total.
2000 Multi command.
600 night.
Having worked there myself, these hours would be more than suitable if they also included 500 turbine.
Fortunately the experience requirements are high, because the tasks that are carried out, day in, day out, by the RFDS Crews (pilot/nurse) in every section of the service, are to this day, the most demanding operations I have witnessed.
As swh said
I loved my time at the RFDS, the best organisation I have EVER worked for, I felt like I contributed to the community, and those personal rewards I cannot put a price tag on.
It is all to dissapointing that current pilots do not feel this to the same extent. This is because the pay and conditions of these crews, particularly the pilots, are being eroded. That is maybe why Western Ops is having trouble securing sufficiently qualified pilots.
Let us hope these "Pilot shortages" turn some of the section's managers minds around, and improve the job security and satisfaction of jobs like the RFDS.
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Why all these "turbine" hours? You can hop into an Elite synthetic trainer for $120 an hour and learn how to start a Kingair engine in a few minutes. In another life the RAAF had two Viscounts based at Canberra where pilots who had only flown pistons we were checked out after 5 hours dual and those aircraft had four Rolls Royce Dart turbines. 600 flying hours later and no problems with starting and flying "turbines". In a further "other life" RAAF fighter pilots hopped straight into single seat Vampires (one turbine) and these pilots only had 250 hours!
It doesn't take an ace to fly a small turbo-prop aircraft likea Kingair or PC12. So why all the demand for hundreds of turbine hours before the RFDS will look at you?
The RFDS was my first turbine job: I loved it, and was quite sad to leave.
What was more important to the section I worked for though seemed to be night bush experience. It's experience in manoeuvering around the circuit that has a couple of flares, hills on the other side and it's darker than a proctologist's worst nightmare that can't be trained in a sim.
Different sections have different preferences and minimums no doubt dependent on the number of people applying, the experience of people applying, the beliefs of the CP for that section and the nature of the flying work in that section.
What was more important to the section I worked for though seemed to be night bush experience. It's experience in manoeuvering around the circuit that has a couple of flares, hills on the other side and it's darker than a proctologist's worst nightmare that can't be trained in a sim.
Different sections have different preferences and minimums no doubt dependent on the number of people applying, the experience of people applying, the beliefs of the CP for that section and the nature of the flying work in that section.
Why all these "turbine" hours? You can hop into an Elite synthetic trainer for $120 an hour and learn how to start a Kingair engine in a few minutes. In another life the RAAF had two Viscounts based at Canberra where pilots who had only flown pistons we were checked out after 5 hours dual and those aircraft had four Rolls Royce Dart turbines. 600 flying hours later and no problems with starting and flying "turbines". In a further "other life" RAAF fighter pilots hopped straight into single seat Vampires (one turbine) and these pilots only had 250 hours!
It doesn't take an ace to fly a small turbo-prop aircraft likea Kingair or PC12. So why all the demand for hundreds of turbine hours before the RFDS will look at you?
That does not happen every night when working for the RFDS, but it does happen. You need to be able to step up to the plate when required, people are depending on you.
For your information the doctors and nurses that also work for the organization are some of more highly trained and experienced people in their fields, the qualification requirements and experience levels for those people in their professions would be equivalent to what they ask of pilots in their terms.
The RFDS cargo and mission is important, they want the very best candidates. If you were in need of the RFDS services one day, I am sure you would want the same.
They are a medical service, not an air force, not an airline, not a charter company, and definitely not a flying school. They are a good bunch of guys and girls working very hard to provide a medical service to regional and remote Australia.
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250 hours?
When we have 21year old, 250 hour Boeing captains in our airliners, that will be the right time to put 21year old, 250 hour pilots in the RFDS aeroplanes.
The size of the aeroplane is irrelevent.
The size of the aeroplane is irrelevent.
Don Quixote Impersonator
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bushy
And that time approaches faster than we would hope.
Not sure the of the current status but some time ago mate who was then an IFALPA VP was having a bit of a problem with an American country turning out sorta 500hr ATPs from their flight school almost straight into the LHS of their new and well kept Airbus types. Competentcy OK no problems All in the view of local skilling etc. Cheaper to keep the aircraft up to date than have expat pilots.
Combined cockpit experience what, maybe 1500hrs. Very strong SOPs and procedures, basic automaton stuff and an ATC system US that looks after em.
And personally I don't really have a problem with that, the electronics, SOPS and hopefully reliable modern aircraft that keep em out of trouble.
Unfortunately for the RFDS you can't write a SOP for the every day is different that would have a manual heavier than the aircraft. But there are those computer thingummys now you know.
The RFDS whether they mean to or not then set de facto standards that the rest adopt without necessarily understanding the why.
This is going to get me into trouble, but you and I know if Geoff were to give us the keys to one of his Boing aircraft and the usual flt planning resources, we could between us, make a pretty good fist of a days work anywhere. It might not be pretty but it would be reasonably workmanlike and wouldn't frighten the horses. I am not sure about an Airbus because neither of us were brought up on Xbox or Sega
and the automatics might get us foxed for a bit. But if we did know how to use em it would be even easier.
Then we could get to say "I wonder what it's doing now" with the best of em.
And that time approaches faster than we would hope.
Not sure the of the current status but some time ago mate who was then an IFALPA VP was having a bit of a problem with an American country turning out sorta 500hr ATPs from their flight school almost straight into the LHS of their new and well kept Airbus types. Competentcy OK no problems
All in the view of local skilling etc. Cheaper to keep the aircraft up to date than have expat pilots.Combined cockpit experience what, maybe 1500hrs. Very strong SOPs and procedures, basic automaton stuff and an ATC system US that looks after em.
And personally I don't really have a problem with that, the electronics, SOPS and hopefully reliable modern aircraft that keep em out of trouble.
Unfortunately for the RFDS you can't write a SOP for the every day is different that would have a manual heavier than the aircraft. But there are those computer thingummys now you know.
The RFDS whether they mean to or not then set de facto standards that the rest adopt without necessarily understanding the why.
This is going to get me into trouble, but you and I know if Geoff were to give us the keys to one of his Boing aircraft and the usual flt planning resources, we could between us, make a pretty good fist of a days work anywhere. It might not be pretty but it would be reasonably workmanlike and wouldn't frighten the horses. I am not sure about an Airbus because neither of us were brought up on Xbox or Sega
and the automatics might get us foxed for a bit. But if we did know how to use em it would be even easier.Then we could get to say "I wonder what it's doing now" with the best of em.