Qantas to introduce AWA'a
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ausflying, from what source have you deemed that more Australians are working for themselves, than are union members?
The ACTU, the Labor Party, nor any other organisation has claimed that "work choices" would, overnight, result in mass sackings.
This legislation will, however, inevitably lead to the degradation of the wages, terms and conditions of the majority of working people, but it is also slow-burning. It was specifically designed to be such, so as not to imperil the hegemony of the howard party.
Your willful ignorance of facts, combined with blind ideological pandering to a political party that has not been able to remain true to is founding philosophies, does not form the basis of a sound argument.
The ACTU, the Labor Party, nor any other organisation has claimed that "work choices" would, overnight, result in mass sackings.
This legislation will, however, inevitably lead to the degradation of the wages, terms and conditions of the majority of working people, but it is also slow-burning. It was specifically designed to be such, so as not to imperil the hegemony of the howard party.
Your willful ignorance of facts, combined with blind ideological pandering to a political party that has not been able to remain true to is founding philosophies, does not form the basis of a sound argument.
Last edited by jaded boiler; 23rd Aug 2006 at 17:07.
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Ausflying, I have a niece who was summarily sacked from her job last week. The supposed offence was trivial in the extreme and she wasn't a union member either. Her boss was a petty tyrant who seemed to relish the power the new laws gave him... no warnings.. no counselling.. nothing... your gone!
The blame for this as far as she is concerned, her friends, parents and extended family as well, has been placed squarely on the new IR laws.
We are going to hear more of this kind of thing. Try telling backbench Liberal MP's in marginal electorates that this issue is not rating. They will tell you a different story.
Australians have shown time and time again that they want practical government, not ideology. These laws are ideologically driven. The public will make Howard pay.
The blame for this as far as she is concerned, her friends, parents and extended family as well, has been placed squarely on the new IR laws.
We are going to hear more of this kind of thing. Try telling backbench Liberal MP's in marginal electorates that this issue is not rating. They will tell you a different story.
Australians have shown time and time again that they want practical government, not ideology. These laws are ideologically driven. The public will make Howard pay.
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Ausflying "We are so much worse off now than ten years ago"
Actually mate where I was working ten yrs ago they are worse off!! Thank God I was fortunate enough to get out when I did, but you can't keep running forever.
Jaded boiler - your last paragraph - very well done
Actually mate where I was working ten yrs ago they are worse off!! Thank God I was fortunate enough to get out when I did, but you can't keep running forever.
Jaded boiler - your last paragraph - very well done
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Actually mate where I was working ten yrs ago they are worse off!! Thank God I was fortunate enough to get out when I did, but you can't keep running forever.
Last edited by ausflying; 24th Aug 2018 at 03:10. Reason: old
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Originally Posted by Fliegenmong
Actually mate where I was working ten yrs ago they are worse off!! Thank God I was fortunate enough to get out when I did, but you can't keep running forever.
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We are going to hear more of this kind of thing. Try telling backbench Liberal MP's in marginal electorates that this issue is not rating. They will tell you a different story.
Last edited by ausflying; 24th Aug 2018 at 03:10. Reason: old
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Ausflying the average Aust wage is utter BS, artifically inflated by those at the top, Just the same way that if you are employed for 1 hour a week you are considered employed
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Ausflying the average Aust wage is utter BS, artifically inflated by those at the top, Just the same way that if you are employed for 1 hour a week you are considered employed:mad
Last edited by ausflying; 24th Aug 2018 at 03:09. Reason: old
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Originally Posted by The_Cutest_of_Borg
.....The public will make Howard pay.....
The really sad thing about Howard going down is that he will continue to live like a lord (at least not in Kirribili) with his mega dollar pension, taxpayer funded office, cars and transport until the ba$tard falls off his perch.
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Ausflying
Its obvious that you still live at home with Mommy and Daddy and have little contact with reality
Its obvious that you still live at home with Mommy and Daddy and have little contact with reality
Last edited by ausflying; 24th Aug 2018 at 03:09. Reason: old
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Time to be enlightened ausflying.
Remember the old adage, "There are lies, damn lies, and then there are statistics". You appear to have seized upon data that has been gleefully bandied about by that bastion of impartiality, the Institute of Public Affairs, to push its ideological agenda. That being that 1.9 million Australians are self-employed, whilst only 1.8 million Australians are members of a union. However, these numbers in isolation do not tell the whole story.
The mathematical flaw in using the simple comparison of these two figures in order to bolster an argument, is that the numerical samples are not mutually exclusive, that is, a significant number of the self-employed also belong to unions (not personal opinion, ABS data). A large proportion of self-employed people are classed as such, by reason of the fact that they act as independent contractors, not necessarily through personal choice, but often by being presented with no alternative by unscrupulous employers seeking to minimise or eradicate their legal obligations to employees. When then comparing the number of people who belong to unions, as against the number of self-employed people who do not belong to unions, the resultant ratio is radically different.
There has been a large body of work undertaken by labour market economists into the effects of the introduction of AWAs, and associated legislation. Try this for starters to whet your appetite www.econ.usyd.edu.au/download.php?id=4301. Overwhelmingly, empirical and projected outcomes with respect to the wages and conditions of most employees are negative. Freedom of information requests to access study papers the government commissioned when framing work choices have been refused as "not being in the public interest".
With regard to opinion polls, consider this quote from a recent speech on work choices, given to a small cheer squad of like-minded luvvies, by one of the luminaries of the political party that you seem to have such a blinkered adoration for, one senator Nick Minchin, "Poll after poll demonstrated that the Australian people don't agree at all with anything we're doing on this - we have minority support for what we're doing".
Remember the old adage, "There are lies, damn lies, and then there are statistics". You appear to have seized upon data that has been gleefully bandied about by that bastion of impartiality, the Institute of Public Affairs, to push its ideological agenda. That being that 1.9 million Australians are self-employed, whilst only 1.8 million Australians are members of a union. However, these numbers in isolation do not tell the whole story.
The mathematical flaw in using the simple comparison of these two figures in order to bolster an argument, is that the numerical samples are not mutually exclusive, that is, a significant number of the self-employed also belong to unions (not personal opinion, ABS data). A large proportion of self-employed people are classed as such, by reason of the fact that they act as independent contractors, not necessarily through personal choice, but often by being presented with no alternative by unscrupulous employers seeking to minimise or eradicate their legal obligations to employees. When then comparing the number of people who belong to unions, as against the number of self-employed people who do not belong to unions, the resultant ratio is radically different.
There has been a large body of work undertaken by labour market economists into the effects of the introduction of AWAs, and associated legislation. Try this for starters to whet your appetite www.econ.usyd.edu.au/download.php?id=4301. Overwhelmingly, empirical and projected outcomes with respect to the wages and conditions of most employees are negative. Freedom of information requests to access study papers the government commissioned when framing work choices have been refused as "not being in the public interest".
With regard to opinion polls, consider this quote from a recent speech on work choices, given to a small cheer squad of like-minded luvvies, by one of the luminaries of the political party that you seem to have such a blinkered adoration for, one senator Nick Minchin, "Poll after poll demonstrated that the Australian people don't agree at all with anything we're doing on this - we have minority support for what we're doing".
Last edited by jaded boiler; 24th Aug 2006 at 08:11.
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Defcon4, get a grip of yourself, or is that the problem, you already have?
Really...
Safety and emergency procedures,medical responses,defibrillating,child birth,dealing with psychotic episodes from pax...the list goes on.
Similar skill set?!...Westaway needs a good smack in the chops
OK, I'll agree with the safety and emergency,but the rest??? Morel like psychotic episodes from FA's!
Really...
Safety and emergency procedures,medical responses,defibrillating,child birth,dealing with psychotic episodes from pax...the list goes on.
Similar skill set?!...Westaway needs a good smack in the chops
OK, I'll agree with the safety and emergency,but the rest??? Morel like psychotic episodes from FA's!
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Huh?
JaPJoK
Don`t pilots in this part of the world have enough problems without needing to resort to taking potshots at CC?....kuso baka jijii...a japanese expression I am sure you get to hear a lot...and probably from Japanese girls...cibi chin chin I am sure would be another.
Don`t pilots in this part of the world have enough problems without needing to resort to taking potshots at CC?....kuso baka jijii...a japanese expression I am sure you get to hear a lot...and probably from Japanese girls...cibi chin chin I am sure would be another.
Last edited by Machinegun Fellatio; 24th Aug 2006 at 12:48.
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Ive been on an AWA for 10 years now-no problems so far.
I didnt have to sign and a lot of union die-hards didnt,not to start with,but eventually either left or signed on.
If wages and conditions were the same then not many would have signed but we got the carrot dangled with about 10% more money.
If your currently employed by a company all goes along normal.
You will find all AWA,s offered are the same--not going in one by one to try and negotiate a wage.
This is for new employees,especially ones with experience and multi skilling.
If the market is flooded then it will be min. starting wage,like it or lump it.
The minimum being what is currently the starting wage.
Not a 100% sure but i think a 4th year AME is on more than a 1st year one.Dont know how aircrew etc work.
as an example a 4th year AME jumps ship for another mob on an equal pay scale.His AWA offered will be of a 1st year AME.He can accept or negotiate.
Being a large company with wages vaying so much they may have different levels.
stratum 1 for the lowest earners-base salary ?
up the straum 4 for pilots--base salary ?
Base salary is 8-5 mon to fri workers
then the add ons---weekend rosters ,12 hour shifts,diiferent type ratings etc
In other words ,what ya get now.
They will throw in a few sneakies,probably the likes of if a plane is 1 hour late landing then you dont get paid for it but will probably have an allowance for such things that some will gain on and others will lose--luck of the draw.
Read it ,get advise from a lawyer.
From a company point of view they dont have to worry about strikes etc which qantas dont have many anyway.
Another advantage for them is timekeeping--not working out hours worked ,benefits etc ,just sending out your monthly cheque as per your agreement.
So poor old timekeeping will get rid of about 80% of personel.
Time will tell i suppose
I didnt have to sign and a lot of union die-hards didnt,not to start with,but eventually either left or signed on.
If wages and conditions were the same then not many would have signed but we got the carrot dangled with about 10% more money.
If your currently employed by a company all goes along normal.
You will find all AWA,s offered are the same--not going in one by one to try and negotiate a wage.
This is for new employees,especially ones with experience and multi skilling.
If the market is flooded then it will be min. starting wage,like it or lump it.
The minimum being what is currently the starting wage.
Not a 100% sure but i think a 4th year AME is on more than a 1st year one.Dont know how aircrew etc work.
as an example a 4th year AME jumps ship for another mob on an equal pay scale.His AWA offered will be of a 1st year AME.He can accept or negotiate.
Being a large company with wages vaying so much they may have different levels.
stratum 1 for the lowest earners-base salary ?
up the straum 4 for pilots--base salary ?
Base salary is 8-5 mon to fri workers
then the add ons---weekend rosters ,12 hour shifts,diiferent type ratings etc
In other words ,what ya get now.
They will throw in a few sneakies,probably the likes of if a plane is 1 hour late landing then you dont get paid for it but will probably have an allowance for such things that some will gain on and others will lose--luck of the draw.
Read it ,get advise from a lawyer.
From a company point of view they dont have to worry about strikes etc which qantas dont have many anyway.
Another advantage for them is timekeeping--not working out hours worked ,benefits etc ,just sending out your monthly cheque as per your agreement.
So poor old timekeeping will get rid of about 80% of personel.
Time will tell i suppose
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Information
The problem with AWAs is trying to locate information
Am I compelled to sign one?
When my EBA expires can I elect to maintain the same T&Cs?
Can I employ an advocate to act on my behalf?
Do I have any redress whatsover?
Do I just have to cop it all?.
If so, am I still really living in a free and democratic Australia?
Or am I just bloody kidding myself?
Am I compelled to sign one?
When my EBA expires can I elect to maintain the same T&Cs?
Can I employ an advocate to act on my behalf?
Do I have any redress whatsover?
Do I just have to cop it all?.
If so, am I still really living in a free and democratic Australia?
Or am I just bloody kidding myself?
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Quote-
"If so, am I still really living in a free and democratic Australia?
Or am I just bloody kidding myself?"
--------------
Can you see the link between the three following words?
Fascist, johnny, jackboot.
"If so, am I still really living in a free and democratic Australia?
Or am I just bloody kidding myself?"
--------------
Can you see the link between the three following words?
Fascist, johnny, jackboot.
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PAF
Note. Does not play well with others
Cannot understand or accommodate any point of view other than his/her own
Derives some form of joy from being a contrarian
EQ index zero
A likely failed commercial pilot wannabe
Cannot understand or accommodate any point of view other than his/her own
Derives some form of joy from being a contrarian
EQ index zero
A likely failed commercial pilot wannabe
Last edited by argus.moon; 25th Aug 2006 at 10:55.
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You obviously haven't associated with too many pilots in your time Frozo.
Most of the ones I've known or met over the years have had politically conservative leanings. Now that a government has introduced poor legislation, some seem to be doing what bright, pragmatic people do when presented with a different set of circumstances, they change their mind.
Most of the ones I've known or met over the years have had politically conservative leanings. Now that a government has introduced poor legislation, some seem to be doing what bright, pragmatic people do when presented with a different set of circumstances, they change their mind.
Last edited by jaded boiler; 26th Aug 2006 at 02:15.