Qantas pilots hit turbulence with JetStar
I think Alan Joyce may want to have a look into what other airlines around the world are paying their pilots before he gets quoted in newspapers and he may discover that QF have some of the cheapest labour in the world.
Maybe he needs to look at what the likes of Jetblue and Southwest are paying before he starts talking about market rates.
I also love how all these senior management types compare their pilot salaries with 3rd World LCC startups saying that Australian pilots are to expensive whilst comparing their own salaries with United and BA claiming that they are paid "on par with people in similar positions". Alan should investigate what Southwest pay their managers and CEO's before he talks about "market rates"
He may have a bit of a rude shock if he does!
Maybe he needs to look at what the likes of Jetblue and Southwest are paying before he starts talking about market rates.
I also love how all these senior management types compare their pilot salaries with 3rd World LCC startups saying that Australian pilots are to expensive whilst comparing their own salaries with United and BA claiming that they are paid "on par with people in similar positions". Alan should investigate what Southwest pay their managers and CEO's before he talks about "market rates"
He may have a bit of a rude shock if he does!
On my caculations as follows
* Note that in the US you work up the income levels each year. The hours a month are the MINIMUM that is guarenteed*
South West FO after 7 years gets US$ 111 384 for 78 hours guaranteed a month
Maximum income for a Captain at Southwest is US $ 177 840 for 78 a month
Have read elsewhere it is US$ 220 000
Jet Blue 7th year FO's are US $62 160 guarenteed 70 a month
Captains maximum US $116 760 for 70 a month
I would imagine that Jet blue pilots will earn more than this with extra flying time. If I remember correctly it is quicker to get to the top level in jetblue too
These are two domestic LCC in the US yet Alan Joyce thinks that Jetstar paying about $137 000 and $83 000 for 85 hours (???) a month is the market average.
* Note that in the US you work up the income levels each year. The hours a month are the MINIMUM that is guarenteed*
South West FO after 7 years gets US$ 111 384 for 78 hours guaranteed a month
Maximum income for a Captain at Southwest is US $ 177 840 for 78 a month
Have read elsewhere it is US$ 220 000
Jet Blue 7th year FO's are US $62 160 guarenteed 70 a month
Captains maximum US $116 760 for 70 a month
I would imagine that Jet blue pilots will earn more than this with extra flying time. If I remember correctly it is quicker to get to the top level in jetblue too
These are two domestic LCC in the US yet Alan Joyce thinks that Jetstar paying about $137 000 and $83 000 for 85 hours (???) a month is the market average.
Grandpa Aerotart
Looks like VB and Jetstar, at around AU$160-170K captains with typical hrs overtime, are paying same or better?
That 220k figure would be for Check and Trainers probably...if so compares favourably with Jetstar as well.
VB or Jetstar FOs similar too and in some cases better than their US counterparts.
Ryanair adds on this site indicate up to GBP100k for a captain and GBP70k for FO and they alledgedly pay better than similar LCCs in the UK.
Seems to me VB or Jetstar win again.
That 220k figure would be for Check and Trainers probably...if so compares favourably with Jetstar as well.
VB or Jetstar FOs similar too and in some cases better than their US counterparts.
Ryanair adds on this site indicate up to GBP100k for a captain and GBP70k for FO and they alledgedly pay better than similar LCCs in the UK.
Seems to me VB or Jetstar win again.
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Chimbu,
Ryanair 100,000 GBP = $247,000 AUD and they are having trouble getting pilots.
JetBlue Capt at 116K US is Minimum Guarantee - at 85 hours it would be around 153K (Credit of 150% stick aboved 70 hours) therefore $205,000 AUD.
Southwest Capt at 177K US is again Minimum Guarantee - at 85 hours it would be 194K which is $262,000 AUD.
THESE FIGURES DO NOT INCLUDE ALLOWANCES AND SUCH LIKE!
THE FIGURES ARE FOR SHORT HAUL NARROW BODY OPS NOT WIDEBODY LONGHAUL!
So yeah, you're right Jetstar pays similar amounts - For the WHOLE CREW.
AJ really does not know the market, he just knows that due to unique cirmumstances (AN going down and Impulse blokes seeing any jet job as better than a 1900) there are desperate pilots (others might call them foolish) who will sign up for less then market rates - simple!
Ryanair 100,000 GBP = $247,000 AUD and they are having trouble getting pilots.
JetBlue Capt at 116K US is Minimum Guarantee - at 85 hours it would be around 153K (Credit of 150% stick aboved 70 hours) therefore $205,000 AUD.
Southwest Capt at 177K US is again Minimum Guarantee - at 85 hours it would be 194K which is $262,000 AUD.
THESE FIGURES DO NOT INCLUDE ALLOWANCES AND SUCH LIKE!
THE FIGURES ARE FOR SHORT HAUL NARROW BODY OPS NOT WIDEBODY LONGHAUL!
So yeah, you're right Jetstar pays similar amounts - For the WHOLE CREW.
AJ really does not know the market, he just knows that due to unique cirmumstances (AN going down and Impulse blokes seeing any jet job as better than a 1900) there are desperate pilots (others might call them foolish) who will sign up for less then market rates - simple!
Last edited by speeeedy; 26th Jul 2006 at 06:23.
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Yeah, I have to admit to being a little confused as to what exchange rates Chimbu is using! Cost of living comparisons may make the European figures slightly less favourable, but certainly not the US ones!
1000 applications? How many of those even meet the qualification requirements? Doesn't sound much for a new airline flying modern jets even if every single one of them did have the prerequisites.
1000 applications? How many of those even meet the qualification requirements? Doesn't sound much for a new airline flying modern jets even if every single one of them did have the prerequisites.
Grandpa Aerotart
I will tell you the exchange rate I am using 1 for 1.
It is NOT appropriate to use any exchange rate at all unless you are sending the money home.
A Ryanair pilot is paid in GBP and spends in GBP.
I liter of fuel in the UK is GBP1.30. in Oz its AU$1.30.
A Big Mac is GBP4.50 in Oz its AUD4.50.
Rent is several hundred pounds a week...in Oz it is several hundred dollars a week.
I spend quite a few days a mth in London and the costs in the UK are painful when you are not earning in GBP.
To suggest a Ryanair captain is making the equivalent of AU$245k is UTTER BS
There may well be a few unmarried Ozzies/Kiwis with no kids working at Ryanair who manage to save and repatriate some of their pay...that is the only part that is effected by exchange rates.
It is NOT appropriate to use any exchange rate at all unless you are sending the money home.
A Ryanair pilot is paid in GBP and spends in GBP.
I liter of fuel in the UK is GBP1.30. in Oz its AU$1.30.
A Big Mac is GBP4.50 in Oz its AUD4.50.
Rent is several hundred pounds a week...in Oz it is several hundred dollars a week.
I spend quite a few days a mth in London and the costs in the UK are painful when you are not earning in GBP.
To suggest a Ryanair captain is making the equivalent of AU$245k is UTTER BS
There may well be a few unmarried Ozzies/Kiwis with no kids working at Ryanair who manage to save and repatriate some of their pay...that is the only part that is effected by exchange rates.
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Chuck, you might be gilding the lilly a little there. Fuel £1.30, not yet. Maybe after a few nukes get tossed around the middle east, but at the moment fuel is below the pound. Paid £0.94/litre yesterday. Admittedly haven't eaten in Maccas for a while, but £4.50 would get a whole meal not just a burger.
Not going to enter into the wages argument J* versus the world, but what Chuck is trying to express is true. The only time you can compare what you are earning overseas to back in Aus is when you leave and go home, go on hols or pay off an Aussie mortgage. The only problem is you still have to live up here. LCC Captains would be on over $200K aus up here. The only time that number is any good is during a d..k pulling contest down the pub!
Haven't been home for years but am told it is a hell of a lot more expensive than when i left (pre GST) and you get shafted on income tax. What is the top rate now? $0.48 in the $1, ouch! Guess you have to keep the guys on the beach in beer money.
Not going to enter into the wages argument J* versus the world, but what Chuck is trying to express is true. The only time you can compare what you are earning overseas to back in Aus is when you leave and go home, go on hols or pay off an Aussie mortgage. The only problem is you still have to live up here. LCC Captains would be on over $200K aus up here. The only time that number is any good is during a d..k pulling contest down the pub!
Haven't been home for years but am told it is a hell of a lot more expensive than when i left (pre GST) and you get shafted on income tax. What is the top rate now? $0.48 in the $1, ouch! Guess you have to keep the guys on the beach in beer money.
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First up:
A Big Mac in the UK cost 1.94 GBP (25th March 2006 Price).
Fuel cost 98.4p per Litre (Avg of UK wide price as of Today), importantly a whopping 70% of this is TAX, so unless you start looking at the total tax situation it is meaningless.
Secondly:
AJ was talking about Market rates - your argument is irrelevant from that point of view.
A Big Mac in the UK cost 1.94 GBP (25th March 2006 Price).
Fuel cost 98.4p per Litre (Avg of UK wide price as of Today), importantly a whopping 70% of this is TAX, so unless you start looking at the total tax situation it is meaningless.
Secondly:
AJ was talking about Market rates - your argument is irrelevant from that point of view.
Grandpa Aerotart
Ok I was thinking about avgas I must admit Only realised it after my mistake was pointed out...and Big Mac meals as opposed to a burger...but the basic premise still holds true.
Still by your calcs they are paying AU$2.50 odd/liter for petrol....nearly double what it costs in Oz. That is not correct either.
It is rediculous to use exchange rates to compare wages across the world and then proclaim Jetstar are underpaid without looking at relative costs of living.
Still by your calcs they are paying AU$2.50 odd/liter for petrol....nearly double what it costs in Oz. That is not correct either.
It is rediculous to use exchange rates to compare wages across the world and then proclaim Jetstar are underpaid without looking at relative costs of living.
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AJ was talking about Market rates and I am talking about Market rates, what Chimbu is talking about, I have no idea!
It does not matter how many big macs an employee can buy, it is the cost to the business of the employees that is the relevant comparison in this case.
Cost of living and different tax policies are the concern of the employee, not the employer.
It does not matter how many big macs an employee can buy, it is the cost to the business of the employees that is the relevant comparison in this case.
Cost of living and different tax policies are the concern of the employee, not the employer.
'costs of living'
While 'cost of living' might be a factor in job acceptance or otherwise, surely it is 'cost to the company' which determines the competitiveness of various employment packages.
No doubt J* and VB are cheaper than QF on many counts, especially when QF spin is regurgitated, as in today's Australian, without comparative analysis of real bottom lines. Min guarantee hours/month, no shorthaul overtime, CAO exemptions, heavy crews with S/Os vs multiple Capts and F/Os narrow the gap between QF and others a lot.
In short, the Dixon/Joyce/etc spin supported by sloppy investigative journalism manifested in an uncritical acceptance of management pronouncements is not serving any Australia-based pilots well at present. I'm just surprised that after the years of being called 's*#t c*+ks' by all and sundry, now that AIPA is attempting to take a stand on several issues which may eventually benefit more than just AIPA pilots, they get a different crowd of nay-sayers calling them the same thing!
No doubt J* and VB are cheaper than QF on many counts, especially when QF spin is regurgitated, as in today's Australian, without comparative analysis of real bottom lines. Min guarantee hours/month, no shorthaul overtime, CAO exemptions, heavy crews with S/Os vs multiple Capts and F/Os narrow the gap between QF and others a lot.
In short, the Dixon/Joyce/etc spin supported by sloppy investigative journalism manifested in an uncritical acceptance of management pronouncements is not serving any Australia-based pilots well at present. I'm just surprised that after the years of being called 's*#t c*+ks' by all and sundry, now that AIPA is attempting to take a stand on several issues which may eventually benefit more than just AIPA pilots, they get a different crowd of nay-sayers calling them the same thing!
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Who gives a rats about the fuel price in the UK? For the couple of years I lived there, you virtually didn't need your car at all (they, unlike OZ, actually have decent public transport). Rent was also expensive if you lived in town, but very cheap away from the centre of action (again, how much do you pay to rent in the Eastern Suburbs as opposed to out a little way - say Strathfield?).
As for beer at todays prices, well at least you get a pint over there for the equivalent of about $5 Aus (in the city). Last time I drank in the heart of Sydney, most establishments charged around $4 for a schooner, which given the volume of the pint doesn't make it that much more expensive overall.
Its time for people to admit that wages in Aus are heading the way of third world LCC's, not western nations market averages.
As for beer at todays prices, well at least you get a pint over there for the equivalent of about $5 Aus (in the city). Last time I drank in the heart of Sydney, most establishments charged around $4 for a schooner, which given the volume of the pint doesn't make it that much more expensive overall.
Its time for people to admit that wages in Aus are heading the way of third world LCC's, not western nations market averages.
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Now I'm really confused. A pound in the UK doesn't necessarily buy what an AUD buys in Oz (yes there are coincidental exceptions, but it ain't the rule by any stretch!), or what a $US buys in the US. The price of goods and services (or if you like, the "cost of living") is highly variable between the 3 countries, even if you had a universal currency. A 1 to 1 comparison is meaningless. An exchange rate comparison on it's own is also meaningless. As is a gross income comparison. Anyone flying LH will be able to tell you that!
Yes there are 2 discussions here. Whether Jetstar pilots are more "competitive" in terms of what they cost the company, and whether Jetstar pilots are on good pay & conditions for a comparable LCC. Two quite different answers I suspect.
Yes there are 2 discussions here. Whether Jetstar pilots are more "competitive" in terms of what they cost the company, and whether Jetstar pilots are on good pay & conditions for a comparable LCC. Two quite different answers I suspect.
