Airline Moves For RAAF Top Guns
Originally Posted by amos2
So, havik...let me get this straight...
you're 22 right?...
and you expect me to reply to you??
what a goose!!
you're 22 right?...
and you expect me to reply to you??
what a goose!!
Amos,
Lets not get into a pis*ing contest here, I may be 22, but at least I can make an educated comment as have experienced it from both sides of the fence instead of ranting and raving like yourself.
And I don't like to be captain obvious, however you just did reply to me in your last post, even though I am 22..
Lets not get into a pis*ing contest here, I may be 22, but at least I can make an educated comment as have experienced it from both sides of the fence instead of ranting and raving like yourself.
And I don't like to be captain obvious, however you just did reply to me in your last post, even though I am 22..
Last edited by havick; 22nd Jun 2006 at 20:54.
Thread Starter
Some recent ranting are somewhat moot. Possible crewing options from the commercial world, involving former RAAF pilots as reservists ( with high time on legacy airliners ), are unlimited. The use of non-military trained, current high time airline pilots as reservist unneccessary and a significant risk. The product is unknown as opposed to the ability of defence to 'buy back' former RAAF pilots who not only now have exposure to the A330, but have a common military operational background including post graduate military flying qualifications- advanced instructing, test flying, FCI, mission planning within coalition air packages etc. Three grand a month, tax free, Defence could have as much of this lost investment back as it wants.
The next ranting alluded to was the legitimacy of RAAF pilots, now with never before widebody exposure and a 330 endorsement in place, having the ability to slot in as Direct Entry Captains. Will a RAAF pilot now be able to go straight into, say Emirates, as DEC's as opposed to their previous apprenticeships as F/O's? The obstacles are the following. Low time, but market forces may negate this considering the value of the 330 endorsement. Military stigmas. As ably demonstated here. Service pilots aren't always warmly welcomed. The nature of the flying. A330 tanker op's may not prepare a RAAF pilot adequatly enough for the civilian management of an airliner, without an apprenticeship as a co-pilot.
The next ranting alluded to was the legitimacy of RAAF pilots, now with never before widebody exposure and a 330 endorsement in place, having the ability to slot in as Direct Entry Captains. Will a RAAF pilot now be able to go straight into, say Emirates, as DEC's as opposed to their previous apprenticeships as F/O's? The obstacles are the following. Low time, but market forces may negate this considering the value of the 330 endorsement. Military stigmas. As ably demonstated here. Service pilots aren't always warmly welcomed. The nature of the flying. A330 tanker op's may not prepare a RAAF pilot adequatly enough for the civilian management of an airliner, without an apprenticeship as a co-pilot.
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Gnads, I'd like you to know that I reside in a glasshouse atop my well polished ivory tower
Pissing contests aside, this remains an interesting topic. I'm still curious as to the motivation of ex-RAAF commercial types expounding the virtues of them returning to suck on the generous bossum of the Commonwealth. I'm sure that it's motivated by a strong sense of duty and service to the nation...
The yank variant is known at the KC30.
Pissing contests aside, this remains an interesting topic. I'm still curious as to the motivation of ex-RAAF commercial types expounding the virtues of them returning to suck on the generous bossum of the Commonwealth. I'm sure that it's motivated by a strong sense of duty and service to the nation...
Designating RAAF A330's to KC330's
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Amos2,
I thought you weren't interested in this thread. You are still posting 10 days after you said you weren't interested. I see you are still adding your dribble.
So sad to see someone so bitter. Have you heard of this thing called CRM?
I'd listen to a 22yr old any day of the week. You must be a joy to fly with.
Point O five, peoples motivation are varied. For myself the camraderie that exists in the RAAF, and the flying they do, is enough motivation for myself to want to be able to fly part time with them.
Bring it on I say.
I thought you weren't interested in this thread. You are still posting 10 days after you said you weren't interested. I see you are still adding your dribble.
So sad to see someone so bitter. Have you heard of this thing called CRM?
I'd listen to a 22yr old any day of the week. You must be a joy to fly with.
Point O five, peoples motivation are varied. For myself the camraderie that exists in the RAAF, and the flying they do, is enough motivation for myself to want to be able to fly part time with them.
Bring it on I say.
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Hmm. Amos2 an ex-Ansett captain??
sounds like bitterness to me. It must be hard working for a major company for years, thinking you've made it. Then the company goes broke.
He's probably dirty that RAAF transport was used to break the unions.
sounds like bitterness to me. It must be hard working for a major company for years, thinking you've made it. Then the company goes broke.
He's probably dirty that RAAF transport was used to break the unions.
Grandpa Aerotart
There is lots of overlap within the RAAF/Airline aviation tasking/roles.
Fighter and Bomber pilot are two roles rightly reserved for the young tyros produced by the RAAF's finest...and that is about it.
Anything else can be done by any competent civvy with the desire.
I am with Gnads....open up the reserve and pay em well....but open it up to all airline pilots not just the ex RAAF ones.
Fighter and Bomber pilot are two roles rightly reserved for the young tyros produced by the RAAF's finest...and that is about it.
Anything else can be done by any competent civvy with the desire.
I am with Gnads....open up the reserve and pay em well....but open it up to all airline pilots not just the ex RAAF ones.
Anything else can be done by any competent civvy with the desire.
Chimbu,
when you write on topics you are knowledgeable about you are very informative; sometimes you write about things you DONT know about and you come across a little less knowledgeable.
Tankers and AWACS do more than just go round in circles; and the transport guys need to learn a lot more theory and systems knowledge, as well as regularly practice extremely perishable skills that airline only experienced guys wouldn't even know where to start.
Grandpa Aerotart
Fighter pilots often fly tankers, VIP etc, when their days in fighters are over...are you saying it's so specialised any competent airline pilot couldn't be taught how to do it?
We actually have to learn systems and other stuff in the civvy world too you know.
C130 Trashies used to fly in and out of Chimbu on training flights when I was based there...the pilots used to tell me it was the most challenging flying they did in 'normal' trash hauling...not including special ops obviously...The Caribou pilots used to fly in and out of other more challenging strips in PNG. All of them were places I flew Twotters in and out of all day every day...not to mention scores of other strips I used as part of my daily bread that the RAAF would not go near.
Those of us 'lucky' enough to have flown on Bouganville during the 'war' on that island flew tactically to minimise exposure to ground fire..we were shot at and virtually all the civvy choppers operating down there were hit and several pilots/engineers were wounded. One of our Twin Otters came back with nearly 30 bullet holes, one dead pax, one wounded pax and the rudder nearly blown off the verticle stab by a grenade that exploded under the tail as the pilot was getting airbourne from a strip we flew into deap in BRA territory. The pilot rolled the aeroplane over and dove into the valley off the end of the strip and they stopped firing to watch him crash...must have been pissed off when he rolled upright again and flew away...he didn't even take stress leave after that flight...he just kept working because we were short of pilots. The passenger cabin looked like and abbotoir. He went airline flying and having attained jet command decided it wasn't really his 'thing' and still flys Twin Otters and King Airs in PNG.
One of my mates landed at a strip one day and saw all these people laying around the parking bay....it wasn't until he shut down one engine he heard all the firing and realised he'd landed in the middle of a fire fight. He loaded all the wounded then flew them out. He nows flys for CX.
My only claim to fame down there was seeing tracer pass by my wing while enroute between two strips in SW Bouganville at < 50'...I got to where I was going (I was doing shuttles getting people out), but the weather was really bad and I couldn't quite line up between the hills to land so I gave it away and flew home..that airstrip/village fell to the BRA before I landed back at home base 40 minutes later. That same day I roared over a tree line at dot feet to be confronted with a village being burnt to the ground by BRA rebels..I pushed over into the clearing and flew through the village at full power and 20' as all the rebels on the left side watched me fly past with their mouths hanging open...too stunned to even draw a bead I didn't get hit so I suppose those on the rhs were similarly caught unawares
I have the deepest respect for what military pilots do that is specific to military flying but the RAAF is not the sole repository of all dangerous or difficult flying. Everything you do in the airforce is merely a learned skill...some of it needs young fit pilots who haven't yet developed a sense of their own mortality but most is just flying.
Experienced bush and airline pilots could be used in a reserve capacity as VIP pilots, awacs pilots, trashies, tanker pilots etc with, relatively speaking, minimal training...releasing the full time, RAAF trained, young tyros for the stuff that needs balls of titanium.
If we ever find ourselves in a really big war again you could be sure that the experience that resides in civvy street would be put to good use.
Or is the real problem that the RAAF is afraid that really experienced civvy pilots will pollute the RAAF culture?
The other real problem of using experienced civvy pilots in roles they were suited to would be the resulting lack of 'transferable to an airline' skills gained by RAAF pilots wanting to go airline flying after their ROSO.
We actually have to learn systems and other stuff in the civvy world too you know.
C130 Trashies used to fly in and out of Chimbu on training flights when I was based there...the pilots used to tell me it was the most challenging flying they did in 'normal' trash hauling...not including special ops obviously...The Caribou pilots used to fly in and out of other more challenging strips in PNG. All of them were places I flew Twotters in and out of all day every day...not to mention scores of other strips I used as part of my daily bread that the RAAF would not go near.
Those of us 'lucky' enough to have flown on Bouganville during the 'war' on that island flew tactically to minimise exposure to ground fire..we were shot at and virtually all the civvy choppers operating down there were hit and several pilots/engineers were wounded. One of our Twin Otters came back with nearly 30 bullet holes, one dead pax, one wounded pax and the rudder nearly blown off the verticle stab by a grenade that exploded under the tail as the pilot was getting airbourne from a strip we flew into deap in BRA territory. The pilot rolled the aeroplane over and dove into the valley off the end of the strip and they stopped firing to watch him crash...must have been pissed off when he rolled upright again and flew away...he didn't even take stress leave after that flight...he just kept working because we were short of pilots. The passenger cabin looked like and abbotoir. He went airline flying and having attained jet command decided it wasn't really his 'thing' and still flys Twin Otters and King Airs in PNG.
One of my mates landed at a strip one day and saw all these people laying around the parking bay....it wasn't until he shut down one engine he heard all the firing and realised he'd landed in the middle of a fire fight. He loaded all the wounded then flew them out. He nows flys for CX.
My only claim to fame down there was seeing tracer pass by my wing while enroute between two strips in SW Bouganville at < 50'...I got to where I was going (I was doing shuttles getting people out), but the weather was really bad and I couldn't quite line up between the hills to land so I gave it away and flew home..that airstrip/village fell to the BRA before I landed back at home base 40 minutes later. That same day I roared over a tree line at dot feet to be confronted with a village being burnt to the ground by BRA rebels..I pushed over into the clearing and flew through the village at full power and 20' as all the rebels on the left side watched me fly past with their mouths hanging open...too stunned to even draw a bead
I didn't get hit so I suppose those on the rhs were similarly caught unawares I have the deepest respect for what military pilots do that is specific to military flying but the RAAF is not the sole repository of all dangerous or difficult flying. Everything you do in the airforce is merely a learned skill...some of it needs young fit pilots who haven't yet developed a sense of their own mortality but most is just flying.
Experienced bush and airline pilots could be used in a reserve capacity as VIP pilots, awacs pilots, trashies, tanker pilots etc with, relatively speaking, minimal training...releasing the full time, RAAF trained, young tyros for the stuff that needs balls of titanium.
If we ever find ourselves in a really big war again you could be sure that the experience that resides in civvy street would be put to good use.
Or is the real problem that the RAAF is afraid that really experienced civvy pilots will pollute the RAAF culture?
The other real problem of using experienced civvy pilots in roles they were suited to would be the resulting lack of 'transferable to an airline' skills gained by RAAF pilots wanting to go airline flying after their ROSO.
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 25th Jun 2006 at 04:28.
no, all I am saying is that the skills (and more particularly the maintenance of) and the systems and threat knowledge required does not lend itself to airline pilots without previous military experience; in a Reserve environment (especially in a Service the size of the RAAF).
Note; I am talking airline pilots without previous military experience here.
Note; I am talking airline pilots without previous military experience here.
Grandpa Aerotart
Why not?....I also flew Banderaintes and DHC7s into Chimbu...a C130 is just another aeroplane. One of the C130 trainee captains I met had 1100 TT and was on his final international command check....he bounced so hard on landing he burst some of his tyres and they needed to send another C130 with a jack and spares....he seemed mortal to me.
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 25th Jun 2006 at 05:14.
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The issue was never that C130 pilots are any more capable than you, Chimbu.
The point is that a C130 is a fark of a lot bigger than a Twotter. The critical aspects of ensuring that you achieve a landing touchdown zone at Chimbu are a magnitude more difficult in a C130 than a Twotter or a Caribou for that matter. I am sure that there are other strips that are equally challenging for a Twotter that C130s can not operate into.
BTW C130 final international command checks are not done into PNG highland strips. This is a totally different qualification that is done when the proposed Captain has far more experience than you have quoted. Usually at least a QFI.
The point is that a C130 is a fark of a lot bigger than a Twotter. The critical aspects of ensuring that you achieve a landing touchdown zone at Chimbu are a magnitude more difficult in a C130 than a Twotter or a Caribou for that matter. I am sure that there are other strips that are equally challenging for a Twotter that C130s can not operate into.
BTW C130 final international command checks are not done into PNG highland strips. This is a totally different qualification that is done when the proposed Captain has far more experience than you have quoted. Usually at least a QFI.
Grandpa Aerotart
This was nearly 20 years ago during my first year in PNG..the first of nearly 14...I am merely quoting what he told me...or my memories version. The poor bloke was mortified at having broken his aeroplane.
I did not take your post as an attack on my qualifications or whatever ability I may be blessed with.
My only point is that a large proportion of RAAF flying could be done by any competent, well trained, experienced civvy pilot.
I would love the opportunity to join as a reservist and use up some of my 8 weeks annual leave to relieve the boredom of long haul wide body flying. Who knows...after 9500 hrs in PNG in everything from C180s to F28s I might be able to teach mountain flying to young RAAF trashies.
I did not take your post as an attack on my qualifications or whatever ability I may be blessed with.
My only point is that a large proportion of RAAF flying could be done by any competent, well trained, experienced civvy pilot.
I would love the opportunity to join as a reservist and use up some of my 8 weeks annual leave to relieve the boredom of long haul wide body flying. Who knows...after 9500 hrs in PNG in everything from C180s to F28s I might be able to teach mountain flying to young RAAF trashies.
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I am in no doubt that you or someone else with similar experience would have a great deal to pass on.
I don't think the RAAF considers it is the font of all knowledge and would not benefit from outside experience give the current low levels it suffers from at the moment.
Have you approached you local recruitment office to see what is available? And if not, why not?
I don't think the RAAF considers it is the font of all knowledge and would not benefit from outside experience give the current low levels it suffers from at the moment.
Have you approached you local recruitment office to see what is available? And if not, why not?
Grandpa Aerotart
I have flown with lots of ex RAAF knucks and trashies. Several of whom were retired Wing Commanders off F111s who, in those days, still went back and flew F111s as reservists ....I asked them 10 years ago and was told that the active reserve was only available to ex RAAF pilots.
I have yet to see or hear anything which suggests that has changed and they would be interested in a 44 yr old, slightlyoverweight, balding airline pilot/ ex bush pilot.
If that changes I will be there in a flash...I am almost finished raising my teenage daughter single handed....and looking for a new challenge
I have yet to see or hear anything which suggests that has changed and they would be interested in a 44 yr old, slightly
overweight, balding airline pilot/ ex bush pilot. If that changes I will be there in a flash...I am almost finished raising my teenage daughter single handed....and looking for a new challenge
My only point is that a large proportion of RAAF flying could be done by any competent, well trained, experienced civvy pilot.
A very SMALL amount of military flying can be done by airline reservists; and is pretty much being done now and has been for years by ex-military; basically instructing and unit test flying.
'Sign-on' to 'Sign-off' is only half of what's involved in military operations.
P.S: Your C130 example will be landing lights out on NVG's; inserting troops into a possibly hot landing zone.
Whilst teaching low flying, can you also pass on gouge for avoiding shoulder launched SAM's; detection and avoidance of small arms fire, at the same time listening to the air war on big picture frequency???
Thread Starter
The Gentleman Aviators- A RAAF Tanker Tale.
The year is 2012. The RAAF's A330 tankers are fully operational with 33 Squadron at it's new Amberly base. Simulator is in place. Qantas provides maintainence support ably through generous Defence contracts. The project has been a resounding success with the aircraft proven capable in it's role on operations with allied air forces.
Due poor project management a decade earlier, RAAF fighter strength is down to three understrength squadrons. Operationally, the RAAF has little ability to provide more than token fighter support with US expeditionary operations around the globe. A solid alliance partner, Government committs a good portion of the RAAF A330 fleet, in support of USAF, USN & USMC air operations in places as far afield as Kandahar & Al Udeid. The Americans, due their own poor tanker replacement project, see the highly capable RAAF A330's as the most useful defence asset Australia can provide ( number one being Australian Army special operations expertise ).
With three RAAF tankers on permament loan to the US, a token training capability is maintained at home- with servicing requirments one aircraft shuffles between Amberley & Tindal providing support for Hornet, C17 and Wedgetail squadrons.
Crewing requirments are at wartime surge levels- not seen since Vietnam Iroquois needs . The aircraft and associated systems have proven highly reliable. Defence initiates "Project Gentleman Aviators". Buy back long-lost RAAF pilot talent, with lucrative tax free pay and bring A330 crewing levels to wartime requirments.
The single operational A330 leaves Amberley for a two week Tindal deployment. The crew includes a detachment commander, who is the only regular. The three other pilots are RAAF Reservists lured back onto reserve flying status by Project Gentleman Aviator. The Reservists are all current Airbus pilots and all are former RAAF pilots- two from transport and one from a fighter background ( whose exchange posting with USMC has proved invaluable in liason and standardisation of tanking SOP's when working with the Americans ).
After the airborne refuelling of a C17 enroute north, the 330 lands at Tindal in the early, hot afternoon. Cheap beer, swimming pool and mess- not neccessarily in that order. Being well remunerated, the beer tastes better than an airline nightstop.
The next day, the flying programme involves a morning and afternoon launch of the tanker. Each sortie, between four an five hours duration.
The A330 departs Tindal, and with ATC obligations met, is passed over to a Wedgetail circling not much beyond the circuit area. A networked air force being all the rage, and for the benefit of reservist military currency, the Wedgetail, via datalink, directs the tanker to it's holding track, positioned advantageously to support ingressing, visiting USMC F18's, using the Delamere weapons range. The tanker track is moved to support an egress off the target, providing the Marines with another hook up. Completing realistic, live weapons training in unhindered airspace, with a coalition tanker in support. The training value here can't be replicated at their Japanese home base.
The A330 is vectored closer to base, in support of RAAF Hawk air-air refuelling. That done, Wedgetail directs the tanker crew to another holding track, in support of 75 Squadron. This is the beginning of the mission currency of the reservist crew. The aircraft's defensive suite is run through it's paces- active and passive countermeasures, culminating in their simultaneous use with the aircraft, in it's limited ability to manoeuvre against a fighter threat.
Wedgetail positions the protagonists in the pre-briefed, set piece defensive-offensive moves. One Hornet will simulate a battlespace saturation and "break through" of an enemy fighter; the Wedgetails defensive CAP must shootdown the enemy before the tanker is hit. Profile 1 assumes an early model, Indonesian if you like, F16. So it begins. Once alerted, the A330 goes into a well orhestrated defensive move. Thrustlevers idle, full lateral sidestick, half speedbrake, 5 degrees nose down. Rollout 90 degrees offset, 5000-7000 feet lower with the magic box doing it's thing including chaff deployment. Continue the turn at 67 degrees bank and power up- rollout as per Wedgetail's instructions. Idle engines, full fwd sidestick, countermeasure turret does it's stuff if the enemy hasn't been shotdown- it has. Release sidestick, don't over G, climb power and reposition.
Wedgetail sets up profile 2. Indonesian Su27 "break through". Same as before, more active role from Wedgetail this time. An escape vector which buys the most time or gives the best geometry for defending F18's to put missiles on the target.
Games over and the Reservists mission current. A330 "dir to" mouth of the Daly River. 300kts @ 1500 feet, croc spotting before a run into the circuit area at Tindal.
The morning and afternoon sorties are virtually mirror image. Except, the permament pilot not as aircraft current and undertakes practice Non-Precision approaches at Tindal with overshoot, followed by an autoland. At $15,000 an hour, the regular's currency more expensive than keeping a Reservist on the payrole for 6 months.
Gentleman Aviators. Force multiply the Force Multipliers!
The year is 2012. The RAAF's A330 tankers are fully operational with 33 Squadron at it's new Amberly base. Simulator is in place. Qantas provides maintainence support ably through generous Defence contracts. The project has been a resounding success with the aircraft proven capable in it's role on operations with allied air forces.
Due poor project management a decade earlier, RAAF fighter strength is down to three understrength squadrons. Operationally, the RAAF has little ability to provide more than token fighter support with US expeditionary operations around the globe. A solid alliance partner, Government committs a good portion of the RAAF A330 fleet, in support of USAF, USN & USMC air operations in places as far afield as Kandahar & Al Udeid. The Americans, due their own poor tanker replacement project, see the highly capable RAAF A330's as the most useful defence asset Australia can provide ( number one being Australian Army special operations expertise ).
With three RAAF tankers on permament loan to the US, a token training capability is maintained at home- with servicing requirments one aircraft shuffles between Amberley & Tindal providing support for Hornet, C17 and Wedgetail squadrons.
Crewing requirments are at wartime surge levels- not seen since Vietnam Iroquois needs . The aircraft and associated systems have proven highly reliable. Defence initiates "Project Gentleman Aviators". Buy back long-lost RAAF pilot talent, with lucrative tax free pay and bring A330 crewing levels to wartime requirments.
The single operational A330 leaves Amberley for a two week Tindal deployment. The crew includes a detachment commander, who is the only regular. The three other pilots are RAAF Reservists lured back onto reserve flying status by Project Gentleman Aviator. The Reservists are all current Airbus pilots and all are former RAAF pilots- two from transport and one from a fighter background ( whose exchange posting with USMC has proved invaluable in liason and standardisation of tanking SOP's when working with the Americans ).
After the airborne refuelling of a C17 enroute north, the 330 lands at Tindal in the early, hot afternoon. Cheap beer, swimming pool and mess- not neccessarily in that order. Being well remunerated, the beer tastes better than an airline nightstop.
The next day, the flying programme involves a morning and afternoon launch of the tanker. Each sortie, between four an five hours duration.
The A330 departs Tindal, and with ATC obligations met, is passed over to a Wedgetail circling not much beyond the circuit area. A networked air force being all the rage, and for the benefit of reservist military currency, the Wedgetail, via datalink, directs the tanker to it's holding track, positioned advantageously to support ingressing, visiting USMC F18's, using the Delamere weapons range. The tanker track is moved to support an egress off the target, providing the Marines with another hook up. Completing realistic, live weapons training in unhindered airspace, with a coalition tanker in support. The training value here can't be replicated at their Japanese home base.
The A330 is vectored closer to base, in support of RAAF Hawk air-air refuelling. That done, Wedgetail directs the tanker crew to another holding track, in support of 75 Squadron. This is the beginning of the mission currency of the reservist crew. The aircraft's defensive suite is run through it's paces- active and passive countermeasures, culminating in their simultaneous use with the aircraft, in it's limited ability to manoeuvre against a fighter threat.
Wedgetail positions the protagonists in the pre-briefed, set piece defensive-offensive moves. One Hornet will simulate a battlespace saturation and "break through" of an enemy fighter; the Wedgetails defensive CAP must shootdown the enemy before the tanker is hit. Profile 1 assumes an early model, Indonesian if you like, F16. So it begins. Once alerted, the A330 goes into a well orhestrated defensive move. Thrustlevers idle, full lateral sidestick, half speedbrake, 5 degrees nose down. Rollout 90 degrees offset, 5000-7000 feet lower with the magic box doing it's thing including chaff deployment. Continue the turn at 67 degrees bank and power up- rollout as per Wedgetail's instructions. Idle engines, full fwd sidestick, countermeasure turret does it's stuff if the enemy hasn't been shotdown- it has. Release sidestick, don't over G, climb power and reposition.
Wedgetail sets up profile 2. Indonesian Su27 "break through". Same as before, more active role from Wedgetail this time. An escape vector which buys the most time or gives the best geometry for defending F18's to put missiles on the target.
Games over and the Reservists mission current. A330 "dir to" mouth of the Daly River. 300kts @ 1500 feet, croc spotting before a run into the circuit area at Tindal.
The morning and afternoon sorties are virtually mirror image. Except, the permament pilot not as aircraft current and undertakes practice Non-Precision approaches at Tindal with overshoot, followed by an autoland. At $15,000 an hour, the regular's currency more expensive than keeping a Reservist on the payrole for 6 months.
Gentleman Aviators. Force multiply the Force Multipliers!
Last edited by Gnadenburg; 25th Jun 2006 at 08:32.