Airline Moves For RAAF Top Guns
Thread Starter
There is a term you serving RAAF types may be unfamilar with. It's 'professional mobility'. Never existed previously to the extent it does to day. Professional mobility enables type endorsed, high time and experienced pilots to circumvent traditional boundaries of seniority in airlines.
So, a RAAF A330 pilot could have access immediatly to 15-20K packages a month, in the civilian world. A current RAAF F18 or P3 driver say (or future C17 pilots) will not have this professional mobility. It will take him - if lucky - a decade to access this level of experience. Possibly never, if joining traditional, seniority based legacy airlines such as QF.
Two year ROSO equals 1000 widebody command ours. Nice. And Defence doesn't realise it yet! Could someone else join the line up of Defence bueracrats, sitting around with nothing better to do than burning $100 bills, at taxpayers' expense.
Captain Sand Dune
Let's hope the corporate culture sound enough to realise asymetric flying in a 330 can be ably demonstrated in a simulator. And further, lets also hope that the RAAF doesn't use the QF A330 operation as a source of Airbus wisdom.
So, a RAAF A330 pilot could have access immediatly to 15-20K packages a month, in the civilian world. A current RAAF F18 or P3 driver say (or future C17 pilots) will not have this professional mobility. It will take him - if lucky - a decade to access this level of experience. Possibly never, if joining traditional, seniority based legacy airlines such as QF.
Two year ROSO equals 1000 widebody command ours. Nice. And Defence doesn't realise it yet! Could someone else join the line up of Defence bueracrats, sitting around with nothing better to do than burning $100 bills, at taxpayers' expense.
Captain Sand Dune
Let's hope the corporate culture sound enough to realise asymetric flying in a 330 can be ably demonstrated in a simulator. And further, lets also hope that the RAAF doesn't use the QF A330 operation as a source of Airbus wisdom.
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ROSO
ROSO has been previously found to be unworkable. It sounds good on the surface, and initially has some impact, but what happens in reality is that it gives the individual the opportunity to refuse a posting.
ROSO is a two way contract. i.e we will let you fly a BBJ if you promise to stay two years. This may be attractive to some and they will take it. On the other hand, if you have an experienced jet driver who is looking to get out he may choose to reject the ROSO rather than be posted to the wedgetail project because he doesn't need the experience or want to make the commitment.
It happened in all areas in the mid 90's where 2fts instructors were refusing postings to CFS and Squadron pilots were refusing postings to instructors course. In the end it became unmanageable from DPO's point of view, so they scrapped all roso on conversions.
ROSO is a two way contract. i.e we will let you fly a BBJ if you promise to stay two years. This may be attractive to some and they will take it. On the other hand, if you have an experienced jet driver who is looking to get out he may choose to reject the ROSO rather than be posted to the wedgetail project because he doesn't need the experience or want to make the commitment.
It happened in all areas in the mid 90's where 2fts instructors were refusing postings to CFS and Squadron pilots were refusing postings to instructors course. In the end it became unmanageable from DPO's point of view, so they scrapped all roso on conversions.
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Guys,
ROSO for BBJ, C17, A330 is 3 years, The RAAF are struggling to find suitably qualified captains (operational experience, glass cockpit etc) because of this ROSO requirement. Guys with suitable experience generally prefer to fly an A330 or 737 for Qantas than for the RAAF. More flying, better pay, 4 star hotel, no RAAF currencies.
Gnads,
You raise many great points. I personally have suggested similiar thoughts to some very senior RAAF commanders. I have been given the " don't you worry about that - we are considering all options". Bottom line, RAAF are looking for experienced reserve QFIs to teach in the sim, however have not yet opted for reserve operational pilots.
Personally I think the RAAF is lacking in experience in many areas and could certainly use and learn from the experience of airline pilots. However, I think the RAAF culture will prevent non PAF personnel from flying operational sorties. I hope Im wrong
ROSO for BBJ, C17, A330 is 3 years, The RAAF are struggling to find suitably qualified captains (operational experience, glass cockpit etc) because of this ROSO requirement. Guys with suitable experience generally prefer to fly an A330 or 737 for Qantas than for the RAAF. More flying, better pay, 4 star hotel, no RAAF currencies.
Gnads,
You raise many great points. I personally have suggested similiar thoughts to some very senior RAAF commanders. I have been given the " don't you worry about that - we are considering all options". Bottom line, RAAF are looking for experienced reserve QFIs to teach in the sim, however have not yet opted for reserve operational pilots.
Personally I think the RAAF is lacking in experience in many areas and could certainly use and learn from the experience of airline pilots. However, I think the RAAF culture will prevent non PAF personnel from flying operational sorties. I hope Im wrong
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Let's hope the corporate culture sound enough to realise asymetric flying in a 330 can be ably demonstrated in a simulator. And further, lets also hope that the RAAF doesn't use the QF A330 operation as a source of Airbus wisdom.
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When are you RAAF guys going to realise that as a military pilot you don't have what it takes to make the grade in an airline as an airline captain?
Accept your lot, join as an F/O ( you'll no doubt get through the interview process without any problems ) and then learn how it's all done and progress through the ranks like the rest of us!
Rather simple really when you think about it!
Let's face it, you've got the goods, the RAAF employed you!
Accept your lot, join as an F/O ( you'll no doubt get through the interview process without any problems ) and then learn how it's all done and progress through the ranks like the rest of us!
Rather simple really when you think about it!
Let's face it, you've got the goods, the RAAF employed you!
Originally Posted by amos2
When are you RAAF guys going to realise that as a military pilot you don't have what it takes to make the grade in an airline as an airline captain?
Accept your lot, join as an F/O ( you'll no doubt get through the interview process without any problems ) and then learn how it's all done and progress through the ranks like the rest of us!
Rather simple really when you think about it!
Let's face it, you've got the goods, the RAAF employed you!
Accept your lot, join as an F/O ( you'll no doubt get through the interview process without any problems ) and then learn how it's all done and progress through the ranks like the rest of us!
Rather simple really when you think about it!
Let's face it, you've got the goods, the RAAF employed you!
A poorly constructed argument or a sad attempt at a wind-up! (Which I usually love!)
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When are you airline guys going to realise that as a airline pilot you don't have what it takes to make the grade in the RAAF as an military captain?
Accept your lot, join as an FLGOFF [only changed that one slightly
]( you'll no doubt get through the interview process without any problems ) and then learn how it's all done and progress through the ranks like the rest of us!
Rather simple really when you think about it!
Let's face it, you can afford to take the pay cut, you paid for your training!
Accept your lot, join as an FLGOFF [only changed that one slightly
]( you'll no doubt get through the interview process without any problems ) and then learn how it's all done and progress through the ranks like the rest of us!Rather simple really when you think about it!
Let's face it, you can afford to take the pay cut, you paid for your training!
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Point0Five
But seriously, there hasn't been any discussion of the additional systems that will be fitted to the MRTT. I'm yet to see any airliners that emply DIRCM etc.
What's your point?
The discussion is about reserve RAAF pilots, with a world of experience in RAAF operational flying and thousands of ours on type! They are already current on the aircraft through their airline training and regular flying. Reserve training would would entail the mission currency you may be alluding to.
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I think that it's a worthwhile discussion about the merits of using reserve pilots on commerical airline variants used by the RAAF. I'm just surprised that discussion to date has only revolved around the ability to captain or fly an aircraft; rather than operate a weapons system.
For what it's worth, I'm not really a fan of "legacy" experience. It inevitably ends out to be trouble... back in my day etc.
For what it's worth, I'm not really a fan of "legacy" experience. It inevitably ends out to be trouble... back in my day etc.
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Point0Five
I think that it's a worthwhile discussion about the merits of using reserve pilots on commerical airline variants used by the RAAF. I'm just surprised that discussion to date has only revolved around the ability to captain or fly an aircraft; rather than operate a weapons system.
For what it's worth, I'm not really a fan of "legacy" experience. It inevitably ends out to be trouble... back in my day etc.
For what it's worth, I'm not really a fan of "legacy" experience. It inevitably ends out to be trouble... back in my day etc.
Polishing a very shiny, Ivory Tower there 05! And why wouldn't you? Professional mobility and an instantly gratifying, 15-20K contract monthly packages, or to be targeted by HK carriers who eventually offer more. This has never previously existed for RAAF pilots- sure beats a career in CASA or as a possibly, industrialy stranded S/O at QF!
American ANG & Reserve units have successfully converted from being F15 units, to tanker units. The transition uncomplicated by the fact that a pilot who has flown complex military missions and now flies 'legacy' airliners, adapts easily to relatively uncomplicated tanker op's. I've worked with guys incidently, who at 23 were commanders on tankers on combat operations in Vietnam and were the cornerstone of their countries manned nuclear deterrence during the Cold War- with a thousand hours experience!
Is the modern military tanker mission that complicated to preclude highly experienced former RAAF pilots, current with thousands of hours on type, being mission capable or brought quickly to mission capability if war clouds loom?
All this in mind with the "Force Multiplier" rantings you hear from Defence and RAAF Brass. If we have a 100 JSF fleet, 5 330's will fly at surge levels- 5 x 4 hour cycles daily. It may be lost on Defence, but the ultimate Force Multiplier on your Force Multiplier fleet, is multiple crews. Which could only be justified by extensive use of reservists. Same goes for Wedgetail- although perhaps not as critical with cross polinisation of the VIP fleet.
There is inevitably introductory problems with Airbus aircraft, in an Airbusless culture. Sometimes hull loss. As Sand Dune alludes to, use of reservists, as long as not all from the QF 330 operation, will help make for a smooth introduction. Bearing in mind the Airbus training at Touluse is a very low standard.
So, for the modest sum of 3 grand a month, with 'special tax concessions', Defence can buy back a pool of expertise for ease of introduction and a wartime pool of crews. Our modest fleet of 330's has been force multiplied through common, crewing sense.
Thinking outside the square, if RAAF wants to be nasty, it could get onside with CASA and remove a degree of professional mobility from exposure to RAAF A330 op's. Designating RAAF A330's to KC330's would have Middle Eastern and Asian airline HR companies, caught in a bueraucratic impasse, in not being able to recognise the experience.
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amos2,
I see your school holidays have started early.
Only some are unfamiliar with that concept. This little black duck happens to be very familiar with it, and did alright out of it!
Unfortunately some of those in the ivory TWR may not be!
You're not getting bitchy now, are you? I don't fly for QF so I wouldn't know.
Vorsicht,
ROSO was in fact in its hey day during the mid/late 80's. Every conversion (and refreshers!
) attracted a ROSO. It all came to a sudden halt in the mid (I think) 90's, when I suspect some legal types gently reminded those in the ivory TWR that the concept of ROSO would be difficult to defend in a court of law.
However, I see ROSO is creeping back in.
IMHO non-PAF (I assume you mean reservists) should not fly operational sorties where there's a PAF pilot available. All sorts of of legal/moral/ethical minefields there I reckon. However reservists have long been proven to be very valuable in the training world, and that's where they should be used primarily.
The RAAF has demonstrated similar "nastiness" in the past. You guys figure it out!
I see your school holidays have started early.
There is a term you serving RAAF types may be unfamilar with. It's 'professional mobility'. Never existed previously to the extent it does to day. Professional mobility enables type endorsed, high time and experienced pilots to circumvent traditional boundaries of seniority in airlines.
Unfortunately some of those in the ivory TWR may not be!
lets also hope that the RAAF doesn't use the QF A330 operation as a source of Airbus wisdom.
I don't fly for QF so I wouldn't know.Vorsicht,
ROSO was in fact in its hey day during the mid/late 80's. Every conversion (and refreshers!
) attracted a ROSO. It all came to a sudden halt in the mid (I think) 90's, when I suspect some legal types gently reminded those in the ivory TWR that the concept of ROSO would be difficult to defend in a court of law.However, I see ROSO is creeping back in.
However, I think the RAAF culture will prevent non PAF personnel from flying operational sorties. I hope Im wrong
Thinking outside the square, if RAAF wants to be nasty, it could get onside with CASA and remove a degree of professional mobility from exposure to RAAF A330 op's
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Captain Sand Dune
IMHO non-PAF (I assume you mean reservists) should not fly operational sorties where there's a PAF pilot available. All sorts of of legal/moral/ethical minefields there I reckon.
I got the impression, we were looking at ways of dollar cost reducing, air force bombs on target. What are these ethical minefields in an institution whose job it is to kill the enemy?
Instead of using creative reservist concepts to crew what are essentially widebody airliners, expensive and possibly inappropriate air force training resources are going to be used in providing a 'nominal' operational level of crewing on the A330.
A two million dollar, 2FTS graduate, to sit in the RHS of an A330 to "Read ECAM". Or, an experienced transport type whose real business should be in more complex roles such as the new C17, where mission currency is significantly more perishable than holding in a tanker track, off an air force bombing range.
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Can someone please answer the following.
I am a GA trained heavy jet captain. My military experience is limited to school Army cadets
Would the RAAF accept me as a direct entry A330 Captain?
If not, why not?
If RAAF pilots fly our (company) aircraft, do they expect to do so as instant Captains?
If yes, why?
I am a GA trained heavy jet captain. My military experience is limited to school Army cadets
Would the RAAF accept me as a direct entry A330 Captain?
If not, why not?
If RAAF pilots fly our (company) aircraft, do they expect to do so as instant Captains?
If yes, why?
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Gnads,
OK, so
may not have been the best choice of words.
However like it or not, how reserves are utilised is at the whim of the particular Service chief. To my knowledge during the last 20 years reserve pilots in the RAAF have been used in the training role, not on operational missions. I'm happy to stand corrected on that one. I don't consider our tax paying public or our political masters would be happy with the concept of operational missions being flown by reservists while there are permanent pilots capable of doing so.
However with the introduction of some "airline types" of aircraft into the RAAF, judicious use of appropriately qualified reserve pilots would be of great benefit. IMHO there would be a valuable role for reserve pilots to play in the expeditious introduction of the tanker into service. However the long term aim should not be to have a squadron largely manned by reservists, rather to transfer their experience to the permanent force as soon as possible. Once that has been achieved, the numbers of reservists should be wound back to what is needed to supplement the training role.
If I were in charge (heaven forbid, many would say!) I’d say; “welcome aboard Capt Nuff. Here’s a two year contract to fly A330 MRT. Your role is to impart your knowledge of A330 operations to RAAF pilots and participate in the development of training packages. After two years your performance will be reviewed and your contract may or may not be renewed”.
Although it would be nice, I think it would be arrogant to assume that would automatically be the case.
OK, so
legal/moral/ethical minefields
However like it or not, how reserves are utilised is at the whim of the particular Service chief. To my knowledge during the last 20 years reserve pilots in the RAAF have been used in the training role, not on operational missions. I'm happy to stand corrected on that one. I don't consider our tax paying public or our political masters would be happy with the concept of operational missions being flown by reservists while there are permanent pilots capable of doing so.
However with the introduction of some "airline types" of aircraft into the RAAF, judicious use of appropriately qualified reserve pilots would be of great benefit. IMHO there would be a valuable role for reserve pilots to play in the expeditious introduction of the tanker into service. However the long term aim should not be to have a squadron largely manned by reservists, rather to transfer their experience to the permanent force as soon as possible. Once that has been achieved, the numbers of reservists should be wound back to what is needed to supplement the training role.
I am a GA trained heavy jet captain. My military experience is limited to school Army cadets
Would the RAAF accept me as a direct entry A330 Captain?
If not, why not?
Would the RAAF accept me as a direct entry A330 Captain?
If not, why not?
If RAAF pilots fly our (company) aircraft, do they expect to do so as instant Captains?
Originally Posted by amos2
When are you RAAF guys going to realise that as a military pilot you don't have what it takes to make the grade in an airline as an airline captain?
