US pilot salaries . . . portend of things to come?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Posts: 311
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
US pilot salaries . . . portend of things to come?
Several things jump out of this article from today’s Airline Transport World . . . further proposed 'contract' pilot pay cuts of between 14% for Delta (current total reduction of 32%) and 24% for North West AND the so-called LCC (Southwest) is paying the highest amongst the American majors (15% more than highest and 49% more than the lowest of the ‘legacy’ carriers). The aviation industry is changing as we watch.
NWA pilot pay cuts go deeper than Delta's
Tuesday April 25, 2006
The tentative pilot contract at Delta Air Lines, if ratified by ALPA membership, will drop the carrier from having the third-highest-paid narrowbody captains to the middle of the pack, while Northwest Airlines, if its pilots ratify their agreement, will fall even further, from having the second-highest-paid work group to the No. 8 position, just above JetBlue.
Interestingly, the NWA and DL pilot ratification voting periods overlap. This sets up a scenario in which the NWA pilots may develop a case of "Delta envy" because the terms of the Delta TA "appear significantly richer than those at Northwest," according to a report from JP Morgan.
The analysis, which cited as sources JP Morgan research, Atlanta-based AIR, Inc., and union contracts, shows that a 12-year Northwest A320 captain currently earns $180 per hr., which falls to $137 under the TA. By comparison, a 12-year Delta 737 captain's hourly pay will fall from $173 to $149. Prior to their November 2004 concessionary agreement, Delta captains were the highest-paid in the industry, earning $202 per hour.
In addition, Delta pilots will receive a $2.1 billion unsecured claim and management has agreed that if the pilot pension plan is rejected--as appears likely--they will get cash and securities worth $650 million. Furthermore, the Delta contact runs through 2009, versus 2011 for NWA. Voting on the NWA contract began April 6 and ends May 3. Pilots can recast their votes up until polls close at 10 a.m. on May 3.
The overall salary leader among US passenger carriers is Southwest Airlines, whose 12-year 737 captains earn $186 per hr., according to JP Morgan. Among legacy network carriers, the leader is American Airlines at $161. At the bottom is US Airways at $125, followed by United at $131 and America West at $134. US Airways and America West pilots are in discussions about merging seniority lists.
by Perry Flint
NWA pilot pay cuts go deeper than Delta's
Tuesday April 25, 2006
The tentative pilot contract at Delta Air Lines, if ratified by ALPA membership, will drop the carrier from having the third-highest-paid narrowbody captains to the middle of the pack, while Northwest Airlines, if its pilots ratify their agreement, will fall even further, from having the second-highest-paid work group to the No. 8 position, just above JetBlue.
Interestingly, the NWA and DL pilot ratification voting periods overlap. This sets up a scenario in which the NWA pilots may develop a case of "Delta envy" because the terms of the Delta TA "appear significantly richer than those at Northwest," according to a report from JP Morgan.
The analysis, which cited as sources JP Morgan research, Atlanta-based AIR, Inc., and union contracts, shows that a 12-year Northwest A320 captain currently earns $180 per hr., which falls to $137 under the TA. By comparison, a 12-year Delta 737 captain's hourly pay will fall from $173 to $149. Prior to their November 2004 concessionary agreement, Delta captains were the highest-paid in the industry, earning $202 per hour.
In addition, Delta pilots will receive a $2.1 billion unsecured claim and management has agreed that if the pilot pension plan is rejected--as appears likely--they will get cash and securities worth $650 million. Furthermore, the Delta contact runs through 2009, versus 2011 for NWA. Voting on the NWA contract began April 6 and ends May 3. Pilots can recast their votes up until polls close at 10 a.m. on May 3.
The overall salary leader among US passenger carriers is Southwest Airlines, whose 12-year 737 captains earn $186 per hr., according to JP Morgan. Among legacy network carriers, the leader is American Airlines at $161. At the bottom is US Airways at $125, followed by United at $131 and America West at $134. US Airways and America West pilots are in discussions about merging seniority lists.
by Perry Flint
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Dad's Bag
Posts: 134
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It will be interesting to see what your opinion on the matter of pay cuts will be qfcainer when GD comes wielding his scythe to your t & c's (if you do work at QF) as he is bound to do, due...rising oil costs, remaining competitive etc...pprune D & G will be unbearable to look at. I cannot imagine the QF pilot group would be happy accepting the 14-24% paycuts as proposed in the above post.
ps for the sake of the abysmal state of Australian aviation I hope it never occurs...but it will.
ps for the sake of the abysmal state of Australian aviation I hope it never occurs...but it will.
Last edited by Blown Seal; 25th Apr 2006 at 19:05.
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 160
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Take a look at what the Americans are earning as a total package compared to us. The hourly rate times hours flown is not their total package. Before their paycuts started, many were earning nearly twice as much as a QF pilot. Even with their paycuts, they are still ahead of what people earn here. A 767 Captain with the majors still earns a significant amount more than an overpaid QF 767 Captain.
Funnily enough,the company also told us all last year at the briefings that we were among the most competitive on a worldwide scale when comparing the cost to each airline of a 747 or 777 Captain (they produced a slide showing the numbers). Believe what you will when QF produces numbers, but it seems a bit strange they produced these to us as a motivational tool to accept the EBA when all they do is go to show us that there are a lot of others better off. A look at United, BA, or Cathay and you would find some of them were worth almost twice as much to the company in terms of costs to keep employed per year. QF pilots were among the top 3 or 4 out of about 15 with regards to productivity (hours flown per year) and in the top 5 with regards to cheapest cost (all from memory, so all figures are ball park).
From the figures shown, the cheapest was a Thai airways Captain on the 400 and the most expensive was a United 400 Captain, who on average cost United two and a half times what a QF 400 Captain costs, and the United pilot flew on average less than two thirds what a QF one does per annum. Surely a 30% pay cut still leaves them further ahead. BA was also up there, while Emirates were very similar to Aus, but slightly more productive on average. Air NZ was marginally lower in terms of cost (for also marginally lower average productivity) while Singapore was also very marginally cheaper than QF on the local scale, but much more expensive on the expat scale. Cathay A scale were also very expensive, but more productive than United or BA, while the Cathay B scale was also far above QF for cost while being less productive on average than QF.
All the figures they showed to us however were the cost to the companies of a Captain only. The biggest crunch comes however, when you factor in that many international carriers operate with 2 Captains and 2 F/O's on long haul sectors. Others do it with 1 Capt, 2 F/O and 1 S/O. When you take into account that QF operates with 2 S/O's, the total cost of crewing a long haul aircraft is very close to being the cheapest in the world.
Bugger any rational reality however, lets continue the push to lower QF wages back to Virgin and Jetstar. Would make more sense than trying to get Virgin and Jetstar up to Qantas levels, wouldn't it people.
Funnily enough,the company also told us all last year at the briefings that we were among the most competitive on a worldwide scale when comparing the cost to each airline of a 747 or 777 Captain (they produced a slide showing the numbers). Believe what you will when QF produces numbers, but it seems a bit strange they produced these to us as a motivational tool to accept the EBA when all they do is go to show us that there are a lot of others better off. A look at United, BA, or Cathay and you would find some of them were worth almost twice as much to the company in terms of costs to keep employed per year. QF pilots were among the top 3 or 4 out of about 15 with regards to productivity (hours flown per year) and in the top 5 with regards to cheapest cost (all from memory, so all figures are ball park).
From the figures shown, the cheapest was a Thai airways Captain on the 400 and the most expensive was a United 400 Captain, who on average cost United two and a half times what a QF 400 Captain costs, and the United pilot flew on average less than two thirds what a QF one does per annum. Surely a 30% pay cut still leaves them further ahead. BA was also up there, while Emirates were very similar to Aus, but slightly more productive on average. Air NZ was marginally lower in terms of cost (for also marginally lower average productivity) while Singapore was also very marginally cheaper than QF on the local scale, but much more expensive on the expat scale. Cathay A scale were also very expensive, but more productive than United or BA, while the Cathay B scale was also far above QF for cost while being less productive on average than QF.
All the figures they showed to us however were the cost to the companies of a Captain only. The biggest crunch comes however, when you factor in that many international carriers operate with 2 Captains and 2 F/O's on long haul sectors. Others do it with 1 Capt, 2 F/O and 1 S/O. When you take into account that QF operates with 2 S/O's, the total cost of crewing a long haul aircraft is very close to being the cheapest in the world.
Bugger any rational reality however, lets continue the push to lower QF wages back to Virgin and Jetstar. Would make more sense than trying to get Virgin and Jetstar up to Qantas levels, wouldn't it people.
I wish you guys would stop saying things like "although its a bit of a pay drop, its still alot higher then the average wage in the world".
Piloting is NOT an average job and that's why it pays more. Tom Cruise is not an average person (he's weird) that's why he gets $20million a movie. Good for him. Pilots have specialised skills thats why they get paid more than average. Simply accepting crap conditions just because they might be 'better than average' is myopic in the extreme. Aim high people.
These US pay adjustments are really only adjustments of the 30+% rises they received pre 911 and WILL again improve - and soon. 9 in 20 of the monthly quota of Delta furloughed pilots recalled are not coming back, they have better positions elsewhere and this will heighten the issue.
The only law affecting pilot salaries is Supply and Demand. In Australia there are too many pilots and the salaries are attrocious. Internationally there are too few pilots and salaries are rising (and very rapidly).
This article is not a portent of things to come, it's a temporary correction.
Piloting is NOT an average job and that's why it pays more. Tom Cruise is not an average person (he's weird) that's why he gets $20million a movie. Good for him. Pilots have specialised skills thats why they get paid more than average. Simply accepting crap conditions just because they might be 'better than average' is myopic in the extreme. Aim high people.
These US pay adjustments are really only adjustments of the 30+% rises they received pre 911 and WILL again improve - and soon. 9 in 20 of the monthly quota of Delta furloughed pilots recalled are not coming back, they have better positions elsewhere and this will heighten the issue.
The only law affecting pilot salaries is Supply and Demand. In Australia there are too many pilots and the salaries are attrocious. Internationally there are too few pilots and salaries are rising (and very rapidly).
This article is not a portent of things to come, it's a temporary correction.
Exactly as you say, supply and demand will determine salaries. Unfortunately for Aussies way to much supply for now and the forseeable future to expect decent conditions in Australia.
Virgin Blue set the bench mark for future conditions. Despite offering terms well below QF they are not exactly short of applicants (how many blue stars just to get an interview ?). Quite a few of their pilots gave up "better" jobs overseas to come home. And not to mention the cost of a 737 endorsement.
Some of their pilots do leave, but the turnover seems to be managable for them.
It may be easier to crew a domestic operation with 737/A320 than an international one with long haul aircraft so J* may need to pay a bit more than they first expect for the A330 drivers.
Future conditions based on the going rate for similar types overseas, minus a % for living in Oz instead of HKG/DBX etc. The rate of turn over decides if the package needs to be improved
Virgin Blue set the bench mark for future conditions. Despite offering terms well below QF they are not exactly short of applicants (how many blue stars just to get an interview ?). Quite a few of their pilots gave up "better" jobs overseas to come home. And not to mention the cost of a 737 endorsement.
Some of their pilots do leave, but the turnover seems to be managable for them.
It may be easier to crew a domestic operation with 737/A320 than an international one with long haul aircraft so J* may need to pay a bit more than they first expect for the A330 drivers.
Future conditions based on the going rate for similar types overseas, minus a % for living in Oz instead of HKG/DBX etc. The rate of turn over decides if the package needs to be improved
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Mars
Age: 20
Posts: 153
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Some good points above. The key detail here is Delta and NW are BANKRUPT! The pilots have been forced to accept these paycuts or face the very real proposition of losing their job. Qantas is expected to post a profit in excess of $500 million this year! When QF is facing an Ansett type situation, we'll talk, until then market forces will dominate.
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: QLD
Posts: 173
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by qfcainer
well mr blown seal, i do in fact work for qantas, my wage is $20/hour, and that is very typical of alot of people in the business unit i work in.
so yeah, if he does cut my pay, i'll go and stack shelves at coles, more money, safer, less dirty.
$120 hr looks pretty good from down here i tell you that much.
so yeah, if he does cut my pay, i'll go and stack shelves at coles, more money, safer, less dirty.
$120 hr looks pretty good from down here i tell you that much.
Your wage (assuming you're ground staff) and the pilots are worked out quite differently. You're paid the $20/hr all day everyday ie 9-5 or whatever your shift is, Monday through Friday.
They are paid only when they go to work eg Tuesday to Thursday on a 3 day trip, and only while they are flying (plus a little before and after).
Hence the difference in the rates of pay. Two totally different jobs and hence two totally different pay calculations. Its not all about the amount per hour but how it makes up your total salary.
There are also differences between Domestic and International Pilots and how they are paid. Domestic are on more per flying hour but because of the way the pays are calculated (credited hours vs stick etc), earn less as a total salary in general.
There you go - clear as mud !!
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Tie Pay
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bazz,
“Before their paycuts started, many were earning nearly twice as much as a QF pilot”
That’s like saying before I became a fat bastard I was a super athlete.
The US industry has changed radically in the last couple of years – be very very carefull making comparisons. The majority of new openings in the US have been on Jetblue salaries which are not too pretty. Virgin America is going to pay regional salaries for operating an A320 – that’s a little under 40000 USD first year FO.
http://www.planepictures.net/netshow.php?id=422297
The average salary at Westjet for a skipper is 111000 Canadian dollars – that’s only 130000 ozzie dollars. Who are you QF guys trying to fool. Even an AC A320 SENIOR skipper only makes 155000 maple leafs or about 180000 ozzie. My 737 chums in QF laugh at that sort of pay. I know fo’s in QF making that much.
“Before their paycuts started, many were earning nearly twice as much as a QF pilot”
That’s like saying before I became a fat bastard I was a super athlete.
The US industry has changed radically in the last couple of years – be very very carefull making comparisons. The majority of new openings in the US have been on Jetblue salaries which are not too pretty. Virgin America is going to pay regional salaries for operating an A320 – that’s a little under 40000 USD first year FO.
http://www.planepictures.net/netshow.php?id=422297
The average salary at Westjet for a skipper is 111000 Canadian dollars – that’s only 130000 ozzie dollars. Who are you QF guys trying to fool. Even an AC A320 SENIOR skipper only makes 155000 maple leafs or about 180000 ozzie. My 737 chums in QF laugh at that sort of pay. I know fo’s in QF making that much.
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Vietnam
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
By analogy with energy, the equilibrium probability distribution of money must follow the exponential Boltzmann-Gibbs law characterized by an effective temperature equal to the average amount of money per economic agent. A thermal machine which extracts a monetary profit can be constructed between two economic systems with different temperatures.
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 160
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DTH,
There seems to be a misguided perception out there that QF f/o's all make a lot more than the $180000 you quote for an A320 Captain. I can tell you and many factually that there are no 737 f/o's (comparable a/c type to the A320 rate you base your argument on) making near that sort of money. There may be a handful of senior f/o's on the 400 making close to that sort of dough, but as for the 737, 767 or 330 nobody comes close. As a matter of fact, there are a lot of Captains in QF making not much more than $180000. And the 737 f/o's you allude to who laugh at that sort of money, most would be happy to get that.
There seems to be a misguided perception out there that QF f/o's all make a lot more than the $180000 you quote for an A320 Captain. I can tell you and many factually that there are no 737 f/o's (comparable a/c type to the A320 rate you base your argument on) making near that sort of money. There may be a handful of senior f/o's on the 400 making close to that sort of dough, but as for the 737, 767 or 330 nobody comes close. As a matter of fact, there are a lot of Captains in QF making not much more than $180000. And the 737 f/o's you allude to who laugh at that sort of money, most would be happy to get that.
And another thing!
Stop knocking Qantas and trying to topple them from their 'perch' (if that's what it is).
Yes they've been arrogant with J* etc and yes they sometimes live in a dreamland but they should be viewed as the MINIMUM; the datum from which all conditions in Australia should be based. Idealistically at least.
Dynasty: your Westjet info is only part of the story, have a look at the share options they got and those guys are laughing. I know a few of them and well done to those guys. Comparing them to QF is thus apples and oranges.
So trying to erode QF pilots conditions may feel good (as some sort of revenge or whatever it is that motivates those wanting to bring these guys down a peg or two) but it does nothing for the professional pilot group as a whole. Just like the jealous QF pilot who went to the ATO complaining about the tax breaks Aussie-based CX pilots got - thanks to him we now have 23AG or whatever it's called. Made him feel good possibly but did nothing to benefit the global pilot community.
Pilots worst enemies dont appear to be the Dixons of this world. It's other pilots.
Time for your AIPA and AFAP to get together again and start to get some long overdue unity amongst pilots in Australia.
PS: Disclaimer: Al E. Vator does not work for and refuses to fly courtesy of Qantas! He/she does own shares in Qantas that were purchased at $4.50 which shows he/she should stick to flying!
Stop knocking Qantas and trying to topple them from their 'perch' (if that's what it is).
Yes they've been arrogant with J* etc and yes they sometimes live in a dreamland but they should be viewed as the MINIMUM; the datum from which all conditions in Australia should be based. Idealistically at least.
Dynasty: your Westjet info is only part of the story, have a look at the share options they got and those guys are laughing. I know a few of them and well done to those guys. Comparing them to QF is thus apples and oranges.
So trying to erode QF pilots conditions may feel good (as some sort of revenge or whatever it is that motivates those wanting to bring these guys down a peg or two) but it does nothing for the professional pilot group as a whole. Just like the jealous QF pilot who went to the ATO complaining about the tax breaks Aussie-based CX pilots got - thanks to him we now have 23AG or whatever it's called. Made him feel good possibly but did nothing to benefit the global pilot community.
Pilots worst enemies dont appear to be the Dixons of this world. It's other pilots.
Time for your AIPA and AFAP to get together again and start to get some long overdue unity amongst pilots in Australia.
PS: Disclaimer: Al E. Vator does not work for and refuses to fly courtesy of Qantas! He/she does own shares in Qantas that were purchased at $4.50 which shows he/she should stick to flying!
qfcainer, if you think us pilots are on such a great wicket why not come and join us. Take a year off with no income, spend $50 000 getting a CPL (assuming you can pass the medical, written exams and flight tests).
Then battle for your first job in the bush on $25 000/year. Over the next 3-5 years try and move onto better equipment and slightly better money. Pass the ATPL exams and you may be considered for employment with an airline.If successful, and most aren't, you may be up for $35 000 for a 737 endorsement if you get Virgin Blue, or free 737 training if you get through all the stages at QF and they are hiring at the time.
At the end of all this you will be well out of pocket, you may even have been killed along the way (most of us knew pilots who died in aircraft accidents)
Then you can tell us if it was all worth it.
PS $20/hour or $800/week is more than you will start on
Then battle for your first job in the bush on $25 000/year. Over the next 3-5 years try and move onto better equipment and slightly better money. Pass the ATPL exams and you may be considered for employment with an airline.If successful, and most aren't, you may be up for $35 000 for a 737 endorsement if you get Virgin Blue, or free 737 training if you get through all the stages at QF and they are hiring at the time.
At the end of all this you will be well out of pocket, you may even have been killed along the way (most of us knew pilots who died in aircraft accidents)
Then you can tell us if it was all worth it.
PS $20/hour or $800/week is more than you will start on
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 889
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nice one CashKing - had to read that several times...
But your machine won't work: there is industrial legislation that "insulates" the "high-temperature" economies very effectively indeed. So your machine would not be able to use the difference in "temperatures".
But like I say - nice one. You had me thinking of a contract company supplying pilots ... I'll stop there before IFALPA has me banned.
O8
But your machine won't work: there is industrial legislation that "insulates" the "high-temperature" economies very effectively indeed. So your machine would not be able to use the difference in "temperatures".
But like I say - nice one. You had me thinking of a contract company supplying pilots ... I'll stop there before IFALPA has me banned.
O8
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: planet igloo
Posts: 294
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When will you guys learn?
God this thread is like a bunch of school kids bickering over who's got the best dad..with the best car..and the most money.
Market forces at work here gentleman pure and simple...more qualified people means lower pay..thats it.
qfcainer...Im sorry if you think QF pilots owe you a better pay deal, they don't, you get paid less because your skill set is worth less than theirs, get used to it.
At the end of the day we pilots are our own worst enemy, all we achieve by fighting is to erode the one thing we have in our favour..our solidarity..when will we as a collective body ever learn??
Market forces at work here gentleman pure and simple...more qualified people means lower pay..thats it.
qfcainer...Im sorry if you think QF pilots owe you a better pay deal, they don't, you get paid less because your skill set is worth less than theirs, get used to it.
At the end of the day we pilots are our own worst enemy, all we achieve by fighting is to erode the one thing we have in our favour..our solidarity..when will we as a collective body ever learn??
Qantas is pulling in the cash, but VB is only just returning to profitability after the last two years?
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Here and there.
Posts: 447
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ever so slightly off topic.
Was told some time ago that the taxation of pilots that reside some of the time in Australia but employed by foreign companies is directly contributable to actions taken by the QF pilot group. In fact, if the story was true, tax rules were written as a result of their lobying.
True or false??
Was told some time ago that the taxation of pilots that reside some of the time in Australia but employed by foreign companies is directly contributable to actions taken by the QF pilot group. In fact, if the story was true, tax rules were written as a result of their lobying.
True or false??
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: mannings ring
Age: 57
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
According to rumour only its both true and false.
The story goes that a number of CX capts were domiciled in Brisbane, but were claiming to be 'non-resident for tax purposes' using an address in HK. According to the story, the ATO was alerted to the fact this was occuring by a QF pilot and the CX pilots concerned were sent a massive tax bill.
When I first heard this story I thought "bullshisen", but on further consideration I realised that some of my work colleagues were indeed stupid and spitefull enough to indulge in such actions.
OTOH the whole 'resident vs non-resident for tax purposes' thing is one of the ATO's favourite areas of attack, and not just for aviation. It is relatively easy, via a process of audit to determine how much time you have spent in Aust, if you own a car, lease or own a house, have used your Aust bank account ect ect.
It may well be the CX pilots concerned were just unlucky and got caught. I seemed to remember that it was a matter of very wide public knowledge that CX had a base in the vegas and that said pilots in that base were not paying Aust tax..
The story goes that a number of CX capts were domiciled in Brisbane, but were claiming to be 'non-resident for tax purposes' using an address in HK. According to the story, the ATO was alerted to the fact this was occuring by a QF pilot and the CX pilots concerned were sent a massive tax bill.
When I first heard this story I thought "bullshisen", but on further consideration I realised that some of my work colleagues were indeed stupid and spitefull enough to indulge in such actions.
OTOH the whole 'resident vs non-resident for tax purposes' thing is one of the ATO's favourite areas of attack, and not just for aviation. It is relatively easy, via a process of audit to determine how much time you have spent in Aust, if you own a car, lease or own a house, have used your Aust bank account ect ect.
It may well be the CX pilots concerned were just unlucky and got caught. I seemed to remember that it was a matter of very wide public knowledge that CX had a base in the vegas and that said pilots in that base were not paying Aust tax..