Those tricky Spoilers
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Those tricky Spoilers
Yesterday a 747-400 ex AVV C check, on it's first revenue service SYD-LAX. Fuelled up ready to depart, the crew finds the #12 spoiler failing to operate.
A/C pulled from service, and the r/h spoiler differential mechanism input arm from the lateral control package shear rivets found sheared. this spoiler mechanism controls #1,2,11 & 12 spoilers, all of which failed to operate.
It appears the lateral control package may have been replaced while in AVV.
The return to service also failed to highlight the ailerons or spoilers being disturbed, where the crew may have picked up the fault, before ferrying it to SYD.
Mistakes happen but we have independant inspections of flight controls and crew checks of disturbed F/C for a reason. Be vigilant
A/C pulled from service, and the r/h spoiler differential mechanism input arm from the lateral control package shear rivets found sheared. this spoiler mechanism controls #1,2,11 & 12 spoilers, all of which failed to operate.
It appears the lateral control package may have been replaced while in AVV.
The return to service also failed to highlight the ailerons or spoilers being disturbed, where the crew may have picked up the fault, before ferrying it to SYD.
Mistakes happen but we have independant inspections of flight controls and crew checks of disturbed F/C for a reason. Be vigilant
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Who needs spoilers?
A diligent QF747 captain noticed during his preflight checks in Syd that his R/H spoilers failed to operate. Subsequent investigation by engineers in Syd found 3 shear rivets broken in the aileron input to the R/H spoiler differential mechanism.
The net result was that the O/B spoilers on both wings were not working but since the position transmitter is only on #12 spoiler it indicated that the R/H wing spoilers as not working.
The aircraft had done one sector since a C check in AVV where all future 747heavy maint checks will be carried out.
Our inspired management leaders have publically stated that they aim to cut costs by reducing the the ratio of LAMES to AMES and making redundant 280 SYD heavy maint LAMES.
As our esteemed Federal Government extolls - BE ALERT, NOT ALARMED.
The net result was that the O/B spoilers on both wings were not working but since the position transmitter is only on #12 spoiler it indicated that the R/H wing spoilers as not working.
The aircraft had done one sector since a C check in AVV where all future 747heavy maint checks will be carried out.
Our inspired management leaders have publically stated that they aim to cut costs by reducing the the ratio of LAMES to AMES and making redundant 280 SYD heavy maint LAMES.
As our esteemed Federal Government extolls - BE ALERT, NOT ALARMED.
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where does it end,this is just the beginning ,yesterday it was the spoilers the day before disconnected L/E flaps,WHAT IS GOING ON IN AVALON,are they going to lose more LAME's there due to the outsourced work,God help the flying public
Silverado,
Are you saying that the lateral controls were disconnected/fiddled with and not written up in the work sheets?
I certainly hope not!
If the answer is yes, I sincerely hope that some L/AME is slated for a sticky interview with CASA.
If the maintenance was written up, the last para applies to the guys certifying the dual cert.
Are you saying that the lateral controls were disconnected/fiddled with and not written up in the work sheets?
I certainly hope not!
If the answer is yes, I sincerely hope that some L/AME is slated for a sticky interview with CASA.
If the maintenance was written up, the last para applies to the guys certifying the dual cert.
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I don't want to get into the merits of AVV vs H245
I also think it is abhorrent that a quality maint facility has been white anted rather than developed only to be labelled as below industry standard...
Back to the topic....
This defect has happened a few times out of H245.
So i wouldn't point the finger at AVV quite so fast
This usually happens when checking rigging on powered cables with steel rig pins fitted half sheers the "sheer rivets" and fails on first sector or during flight control checks prior to departure...
Experienced campaigners use pencils but unfortunately experienced campaigners aren't in excess
I also think it is abhorrent that a quality maint facility has been white anted rather than developed only to be labelled as below industry standard...
Back to the topic....
This defect has happened a few times out of H245.
So i wouldn't point the finger at AVV quite so fast
This usually happens when checking rigging on powered cables with steel rig pins fitted half sheers the "sheer rivets" and fails on first sector or during flight control checks prior to departure...
Experienced campaigners use pencils but unfortunately experienced campaigners aren't in excess
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After Heavy Maintenance, ALLl QANTAS aircraft were test flown. That was discontinued, probably for economic reasons. However, that may have been taking things too far. Then the tech crew operating the first flight after a check would report earlier so that they could make more extensive pre-flight checks than was the norm. Gess what? That practice was also discontinued --- money no doubt being the driver. We should be primarily pointing fingers at the bean-counters and then to a lesser extent at Flight Operations and Engineering management --- the bean-counters for being too greedy and not understanding the technical world and the others for being too bloody weak to stand up to their bean-counter colleagues.
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mustafagander,
The work may very well have been recorded/certified, however that does not mean all required checks were carried out. At any rate, if the person who signed the RTS, after reviewing the work carried out, had added ailerons/spoilers in the flight control disturbed box in the log, it may have been picked up before being put back into service.
The work may very well have been recorded/certified, however that does not mean all required checks were carried out. At any rate, if the person who signed the RTS, after reviewing the work carried out, had added ailerons/spoilers in the flight control disturbed box in the log, it may have been picked up before being put back into service.
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Originally Posted by nomorecatering
Last week was talking to a QF HM Lame. He said that managemant had already factored in the loss of an airframe(ie., accident/crash) within the next 10 years.
You give us ex-caterers a bad name!!
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Originally Posted by B A Lert
After Heavy Maintenance, ALLl QANTAS aircraft were test flown. That was discontinued, probably for economic reasons. However, that may have been taking things too far. Then the tech crew operating the first flight after a check would report earlier so that they could make more extensive pre-flight checks than was the norm. Gess what? That practice was also discontinued --- money no doubt being the driver. We should be primarily pointing fingers at the bean-counters and then to a lesser extent at Flight Operations and Engineering management --- the bean-counters for being too greedy and not understanding the technical world and the others for being too bloody weak to stand up to their bean-counter colleagues.
The aircraft is a machine.If it's systems work correctly on the ground they should work correctly in flight.
And Bolty i'd like to know a bit more of the few times this has happened out of 245....haven't had much feed back on that before.
And I always use steel rigpins as that is what the manufacturer specifies.
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Bolty McBolt
Please do not take offense at this post,but doing what you suggest (using a pencil) instead of correct procedure would seem to me to be going way outside the envelope re rigging and leaving yourself wide open if things turn sour.
I can only imagine the response if it went cactus in flight and investigations showed a deviation from the M.M. but in another breath you have shown that a problem exists, have you told engineering or another branch ? (I know it sometimes seems to be bashing your head at a wall) but your experience would be invaluable if it does what you state.
Before any knockers get going I know we all have found away around certain problems and we all are happy to get it done but maybe we have been doing a disservice by doing this.
The new guy's fresh from training/apprenticeships probably do not know the shortcuts (there we go using nasty non checked procedures again) and if they do may get themselves into a bind one day. Just me two bobs worth but I think the AVV versus SCS is a little tacky as people employed by both areas just wish to have employment and the current situation that Sydney is going through is bloo*y terrible and losing work is a damn shame.
But attacking the Avv boy's does not seem to be warrented, indeed I can see your frustrations but remember the Senior LAME's run the show does that mean they are not up to scratch? as they all seemed to be from SCS originally?
Please do not take offense at this post,but doing what you suggest (using a pencil) instead of correct procedure would seem to me to be going way outside the envelope re rigging and leaving yourself wide open if things turn sour.
I can only imagine the response if it went cactus in flight and investigations showed a deviation from the M.M. but in another breath you have shown that a problem exists, have you told engineering or another branch ? (I know it sometimes seems to be bashing your head at a wall) but your experience would be invaluable if it does what you state.
Before any knockers get going I know we all have found away around certain problems and we all are happy to get it done but maybe we have been doing a disservice by doing this.
The new guy's fresh from training/apprenticeships probably do not know the shortcuts (there we go using nasty non checked procedures again) and if they do may get themselves into a bind one day. Just me two bobs worth but I think the AVV versus SCS is a little tacky as people employed by both areas just wish to have employment and the current situation that Sydney is going through is bloo*y terrible and losing work is a damn shame.
But attacking the Avv boy's does not seem to be warrented, indeed I can see your frustrations but remember the Senior LAME's run the show does that mean they are not up to scratch? as they all seemed to be from SCS originally?
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Come on guys, get a grip. This has been happening for years. The most likely time for anything major to occur is within a few flights out of heavy maintenance.
I've experineced it over thirty years, depressurization, flaps not running, emergency exit lights not reconnected, doors not closing and locking as they should, one not capable of being closed at all, and I could go on.
All of these things due to lack of procedures being followed to the letter. It's not a new phenomena; in fact it's as old as aviation itself, so don't try to make something of it that it's not.
I've experineced it over thirty years, depressurization, flaps not running, emergency exit lights not reconnected, doors not closing and locking as they should, one not capable of being closed at all, and I could go on.
All of these things due to lack of procedures being followed to the letter. It's not a new phenomena; in fact it's as old as aviation itself, so don't try to make something of it that it's not.
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Fluffy stuff
I was not and would not recommend going outside the manual. The pencil technique i was referring to is a method of setting up the powered wing cables prior to the final rig check with steel pins. It prevents sheering of rivets during rigging set up as the wooden dowel shears if a cock-up or out of rig situation.
I was taught this buy some very experienced guys in H245 prior to me being licensed.
As Fluffy stuff alludes the greatest loss of H245 with be the teaching institution for those whom wished to learn. So much experience and techniques lost that will not be passed on.
Webber 1
My personal experience with aileron defects post H245 are , a 3/8th rivet jamming r/h spoiler output quadrant after a canted bulkhead replacement.
Shear rivets sheared on arrival post major maint to SIT and discovered during pre-flight flight control checks.
Trouble shoot of a nonfaired spoilers a few flights out of heavy maint with a similar sort of defect but this is over last 16 years.
My point was that the rigging of a 747 lateral control system is no easy task and people have made mistakes before so even if there is evidence of poor workman ship by another MRO this (the topic of this thread) is probably not a good example to use.
I was not and would not recommend going outside the manual. The pencil technique i was referring to is a method of setting up the powered wing cables prior to the final rig check with steel pins. It prevents sheering of rivets during rigging set up as the wooden dowel shears if a cock-up or out of rig situation.
I was taught this buy some very experienced guys in H245 prior to me being licensed.
As Fluffy stuff alludes the greatest loss of H245 with be the teaching institution for those whom wished to learn. So much experience and techniques lost that will not be passed on.
Webber 1
My personal experience with aileron defects post H245 are , a 3/8th rivet jamming r/h spoiler output quadrant after a canted bulkhead replacement.
Shear rivets sheared on arrival post major maint to SIT and discovered during pre-flight flight control checks.
Trouble shoot of a nonfaired spoilers a few flights out of heavy maint with a similar sort of defect but this is over last 16 years.
My point was that the rigging of a 747 lateral control system is no easy task and people have made mistakes before so even if there is evidence of poor workman ship by another MRO this (the topic of this thread) is probably not a good example to use.
