Geoff Dixon Writes To 2600 Pilots, Threatens Union Payment Cuts
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Foreign Worker and Amos2,
I did NOT say that QF Pilots are any better than Virgin or Jetstar....
I said they COST LESS... big big difference!
Cheaper does not necessarily mean better and nor does more expensive guarantee a better product...
However - If QF Pilot Terms and Conditions are reduced, you can bet there will be the same downwards pressure applied to Virgin, Jetstar, Eastern, NJS, all GA operators...etc etc...
Get my drift!
I did NOT say that QF Pilots are any better than Virgin or Jetstar....
I said they COST LESS... big big difference!
Cheaper does not necessarily mean better and nor does more expensive guarantee a better product...
However - If QF Pilot Terms and Conditions are reduced, you can bet there will be the same downwards pressure applied to Virgin, Jetstar, Eastern, NJS, all GA operators...etc etc...
Get my drift!
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Cheaper does not necessarily mean better and nor does more expensive guarantee a better product...
However - If QF Pilot Terms and Conditions are reduced, you can bet there will be the same downwards pressure applied to Virgin, Jetstar, Eastern, NJS, all GA operators...etc etc...
Get my drift!
Get my drift!
What makes you think QF pilots should be on higher salaries than their domestic counterparts? Just because the T & C's of QF pilots are knocked back, it doesn't mean that those of (say) VB, Jetstar etc, are going to stay pegged in the ratio at which they were before (which is what you seem to think).
There are lots of pilots in the world who fly in far more demanding conditions, day in-day out, than the QF, VB, and Jetstar pilots.
Dixon is seeking parity of conditions for the QF pilots, with the other Australian pilots (at the moment.)
The sooner the lot of you realise you ALL need to unify, the better of you're ALL going to be, imho.
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Foreign Worker,
How do you think QF attracts just about every Australian pilot to apply to fly their aircraft?.....For the same reason most bankers wants to work at Macquarie Bank, or for the same reason most accountants want to work for one of the 'Big Firms', or for the same reason footy players chase the 'best contract'...
It is very simple - If QF Pilot Recruitment wish to retain the ability to pick and choose who they see fit (whether their selecton process is right or wrong)...they will need to continue to offer TOP DOLLAR...if they do not, their pool of eligible people will diminish...or they will be forced to drop their standard...I am sure I know what Qantas Premium Travellers would want!
However, 'benchmarking' your employees to the CHEAPEST alternative is not a good way to show mutual respect or build cohesion within your organisation.
How do you think QF attracts just about every Australian pilot to apply to fly their aircraft?.....For the same reason most bankers wants to work at Macquarie Bank, or for the same reason most accountants want to work for one of the 'Big Firms', or for the same reason footy players chase the 'best contract'...
It is very simple - If QF Pilot Recruitment wish to retain the ability to pick and choose who they see fit (whether their selecton process is right or wrong)...they will need to continue to offer TOP DOLLAR...if they do not, their pool of eligible people will diminish...or they will be forced to drop their standard...I am sure I know what Qantas Premium Travellers would want!
However, 'benchmarking' your employees to the CHEAPEST alternative is not a good way to show mutual respect or build cohesion within your organisation.
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Qantas will never struggle to attract pilots. Even if Dixon “attacked” your conditions of service they will still be generous compared to Jetstar and virgin. Qantas has a lot of industrial baggage that will always ensure that pilots (engineers cabin crew) will enjoy premium pay and conditions, even if its by one dollar.
Comparing corporate accountants, high flying bankers and footy players with wage and salary earning pilots is pointless. Try again.
Change is inevitable but its not the end of the world. Don’t panic.
Comparing corporate accountants, high flying bankers and footy players with wage and salary earning pilots is pointless. Try again.
Change is inevitable but its not the end of the world. Don’t panic.
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QF
If you were around in 1989 you would remember the name Ian Oldmeadow who was hired by THE FATMAN to sort out those awful AN drivers.
He has been re hired by Mr DICKSSSSON ( which must mean son of a dick) to sort out the QF drivers.
The QF drivers are not about to make the same mistake. You have a new industrial war about to occur.
He has been re hired by Mr DICKSSSSON ( which must mean son of a dick) to sort out the QF drivers.
The QF drivers are not about to make the same mistake. You have a new industrial war about to occur.
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You have a new industrial war about to occur.
There was nothing wrong with the way the previous war was waged, imho, that's why the Gov't had to make temporary alterations to Australia's legislation.
I agree with the sentiments expressed in GOD and the QANTAS pilots -
"Dixon is placing all of his money on the premise that QANTAS pilots will accept lower than current conditions to remain where they are (Australia), rather than moving offshore."
Whispering "T" Jet
Dixon is placing all of his money on the premise that QANTAS pilots will accept lower than current conditions to remain where they are (Australia), rather than moving offshore."
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Originally Posted by Pass-A-Frozo
Does this mean you would be happy to take pay rises and be rewarded when the company is doing well and take a proportional pay cut when the company isn't performing?
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G'day DutchRoll,
What I'm saying is if you want a piece of the profit pie, maybe you should accept a piece of the loss pie. One of the benefits of just being an employee is that if the company makes a loss you still get paid. Pay freeze is ok., but all I'm saying is if you want a greater slice of the profit in the good times, perhaps when QANTAS have a year when they lose $1 Billion, it would be equitible to take a 10% pay cut.
As for record profits, you'd have to look at the return in relation to market capitalisation to see if it's a "huge profit". Probably comes out in the vicinity of 14-16%. The numbers might look big, but look at the amount of money being used to create that profit. $20 interest from your bank in a year probably sounds a lot to your 10 year old, but he wouldn't understand that with current banking practices you probably need $2000 to earn that
What I'm saying is if you want a piece of the profit pie, maybe you should accept a piece of the loss pie. One of the benefits of just being an employee is that if the company makes a loss you still get paid. Pay freeze is ok., but all I'm saying is if you want a greater slice of the profit in the good times, perhaps when QANTAS have a year when they lose $1 Billion, it would be equitible to take a 10% pay cut.
As for record profits, you'd have to look at the return in relation to market capitalisation to see if it's a "huge profit". Probably comes out in the vicinity of 14-16%. The numbers might look big, but look at the amount of money being used to create that profit. $20 interest from your bank in a year probably sounds a lot to your 10 year old, but he wouldn't understand that with current banking practices you probably need $2000 to earn that
A billion dollar profit is all well and good, but you have to consider the return on investment.
Renumeration has got nothing to do with safety. Using 'safety' is just a way of glorifying the role further. Virgin 737 crews are paid less than Qantas 737 crews (even when you factor in the efficiency differences) but they are not any less skilled. Did the overrun in Darwin occur becuase the pilots were paid less? Would the Qantas 737 have avoided the hill in Canberra more effectively if they were paid even more?
No Qantas applicant has "the renumeration package is the best in the country" as the main reason they apply. It's not the money, and it never has been... its the image, the lifestyle, and the security. These things are more closely related to 'engagement', and these are the ideals AIPA should be focussing on.
It would be advantageous for executive management to consider them too...
Renumeration has got nothing to do with safety. Using 'safety' is just a way of glorifying the role further. Virgin 737 crews are paid less than Qantas 737 crews (even when you factor in the efficiency differences) but they are not any less skilled. Did the overrun in Darwin occur becuase the pilots were paid less? Would the Qantas 737 have avoided the hill in Canberra more effectively if they were paid even more?
No Qantas applicant has "the renumeration package is the best in the country" as the main reason they apply. It's not the money, and it never has been... its the image, the lifestyle, and the security. These things are more closely related to 'engagement', and these are the ideals AIPA should be focussing on.
It would be advantageous for executive management to consider them too...
Nunc est bibendum
PAFie, all the management guns from Flight Ops up to the CEO have a package that pays on top of 'base' pay. If the company does poorly, they stilil get their 'base'. So I'm more than happy to sign up for the same deal as the CEO. Get my base pay and if things go fantastic then I'm rewarded. If things only go OK then I'm more than happy on a lesser bonus. If things go south then my base pay will suffice.
We've been articulating such a thing for a long time now but the CEO et al want us to put some of our pay 'at risk'. When they put some of their base pay at risk, i'll consider putting some of mine at risk. I reckon I'll be waiting a bloody long time.
We've been articulating such a thing for a long time now but the CEO et al want us to put some of our pay 'at risk'. When they put some of their base pay at risk, i'll consider putting some of mine at risk. I reckon I'll be waiting a bloody long time.
What are you talking about? Most of his earnings already are 'at risk'. Geoff has a reduced FAR to obtain access to bonus and equity payments. That is how executive renumeration works.
You can't have a bonus scheme on top of your existing salary.
You're also forgetting that if Qantas goes south, Geoff will be the first to lose his job, not the pilots.
Executive contracts are also negotiated individually - attracting specific pressures. What would happen if pilots negotiated the terms of their employment as individuals? You've already seen what small groups of pilots will do to access career opportunities to the disadvantage of more established groups.
An EBA system is one of protections. There are very few contractual protections for the long-term careers of managers.
You can't have a bonus scheme on top of your existing salary.
You're also forgetting that if Qantas goes south, Geoff will be the first to lose his job, not the pilots.
Executive contracts are also negotiated individually - attracting specific pressures. What would happen if pilots negotiated the terms of their employment as individuals? You've already seen what small groups of pilots will do to access career opportunities to the disadvantage of more established groups.
An EBA system is one of protections. There are very few contractual protections for the long-term careers of managers.
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Its ok LTBC, I am sure GD will be ok if it all comes unstuck at QF. Hopefully he is able to put some of his $130,000 a week away for a rainy day. But who would know, what with the exorbitant prices you have to pay for a 57' Chateau latief nowdays, he may just be going paycheck to paycheck. 
Have you seen a list of the Qantas execs? Can you tell me which of them dont have a golden parachute, or a fall back position?
Is Eddingtons great work at Ansett an example of execs missing out? Maybe Toomey? Even he survived to run another company. How bad do you have to do? What about the IT manager who lost $200mil in a year, she even left with millions to pick up another high flying position. Yep, they must be trembling in their respective boots or high heels every time they get driven into work!
I think I will save my sympathies for the engineers who have had their livelyhoods decimated by these nice folk. Their salaries at risk? Please...
Have you seen a list of the Qantas execs? Can you tell me which of them dont have a golden parachute, or a fall back position?
Is Eddingtons great work at Ansett an example of execs missing out? Maybe Toomey? Even he survived to run another company. How bad do you have to do? What about the IT manager who lost $200mil in a year, she even left with millions to pick up another high flying position. Yep, they must be trembling in their respective boots or high heels every time they get driven into work!I think I will save my sympathies for the engineers who have had their livelyhoods decimated by these nice folk. Their salaries at risk? Please...
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Toomey's payout was $10,000,000 btw. (sorry about the topic creep). Guy's this whole issue is about how the wealthy and executive classes are simply seeking to redistribute the wealth from the middle class into their own pockets. Note how executives get more bonus when the workers get screwed?? These pr!cks will be the first against the wall if ever we can up off our a22es and organise a revolution!
Now, hands up if ya voted for little honest Johny??
Now, hands up if ya voted for little honest Johny??
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I did and will again!
Did you think that maybe the reason that QF is doing so well (when most other airlines around the world have been going bankrupt) is that the Australian economy is doing so well.
The Howard government is responsible for the good business environment QF operate in. He doesn't set executive salaries.
Oh if only Ho Chi Minh was still alive!
Did you think that maybe the reason that QF is doing so well (when most other airlines around the world have been going bankrupt) is that the Australian economy is doing so well.
The Howard government is responsible for the good business environment QF operate in. He doesn't set executive salaries.
organise a revolution!
Nunc est bibendum
LTBC, wer'e essentially arguing semantics but it's an important one.
The CEOs 'base' is set at about $2.5Mill (plus or minus a lazy Million). That is his base pay no matter what. If the company does well, his bonuses and options take him up to $6.4. If the company does not so well then his base pay is all he gets. (I do recall the management taking a 'half bonus' three or four years ago?!?!).
To use the same logic, if I too were on a bonus of say 50% of my pay then I too would have a significant portion of my 'earnings' at risk- 1/3 of it to be exact. In fact, bring it on! As I said before, i'd LOVE to be on a similar wicket to the powers that be. I'd be happy to be on the same deal as the Chief Pilot where my base pay is fixed and I take a bonus for when the company does well.
OK, lets look at the other side of your argument. Things don't go so well- IE, GD doesn't deliver on his KPIs- then he gets the flick. I'm not sure how this is any different to me not delivering on any of the KPIs that the company puts in front of me every three months or so (every two days at the moment!
). If I don't deliver as advertised, I get the flick too. The only difference between GD and me in this respect is that he probably gets a great pay out and I get zero. Compare that to the CP if he doesn't do well. How much does he have 'at risk'? Only that part that takes him from a normal line Captains pay up to CP pay. I bet his bonus is significantly more than what he has 'at risk' too.
Finally, just because executive renumeration 'works this way', doesn't make it right! Not all 'conventions' are good ones!
The CEOs 'base' is set at about $2.5Mill (plus or minus a lazy Million). That is his base pay no matter what. If the company does well, his bonuses and options take him up to $6.4. If the company does not so well then his base pay is all he gets. (I do recall the management taking a 'half bonus' three or four years ago?!?!).
To use the same logic, if I too were on a bonus of say 50% of my pay then I too would have a significant portion of my 'earnings' at risk- 1/3 of it to be exact. In fact, bring it on! As I said before, i'd LOVE to be on a similar wicket to the powers that be. I'd be happy to be on the same deal as the Chief Pilot where my base pay is fixed and I take a bonus for when the company does well.
OK, lets look at the other side of your argument. Things don't go so well- IE, GD doesn't deliver on his KPIs- then he gets the flick. I'm not sure how this is any different to me not delivering on any of the KPIs that the company puts in front of me every three months or so (every two days at the moment!
). If I don't deliver as advertised, I get the flick too. The only difference between GD and me in this respect is that he probably gets a great pay out and I get zero. Compare that to the CP if he doesn't do well. How much does he have 'at risk'? Only that part that takes him from a normal line Captains pay up to CP pay. I bet his bonus is significantly more than what he has 'at risk' too.Finally, just because executive renumeration 'works this way', doesn't make it right! Not all 'conventions' are good ones!
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Greed
PAF $2 000 000 000 + a month going backwards in GDP even during a resources boom (our only chance to make money given the state of industry and the importing of everything) when will Johnny show us his dynamic economy. Where is Australia going, down the toilet becoming a baby of Yanks. All its shyt social problems not to mention quality jobs, education, health and transport.
Two weeks a year leave, nomadic work, insecure futures, a few rich and a lot of working poor is that what we want? Wake up! What’s happening to society? I better get in the trailer business.
Two weeks a year leave, nomadic work, insecure futures, a few rich and a lot of working poor is that what we want? Wake up! What’s happening to society? I better get in the trailer business.
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$20 interest from your bank in a year probably sounds a lot to your 10 year old, but he wouldn't understand that with current banking practices you probably need $2000 to earn that
Rudderless1 says it all really quite succinctly.
Last edited by 3 slips and a gully; 20th Mar 2006 at 06:01.
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No wonder PAF sees it as going well, he sits comfortably in the ether of public service...
Sitting in sheltered workshops workchoices and Dixon represent a new march to efficiency.........As delusional as lil Johnny (the iron man this) is Dixon wants these provisions it represents his best chance to drive cost down(Nb: PAF static revenue at QF growing the company in the last 3 years take vision and skill-cost cutting the cutprice management technique). The nature of the states challenge means he must push ahead quickly as the High Court may not see the workchoices as a good thing!
It is always the most ignorant that see things as so black and white..
Workchoices
"Unfair dismissal provisions apply to flight crew",
Next paragraph "unfair dismissal doesn't apply to those grossing more than $94,000"....
Keep on reading these are scary provisions, Lil johnny will turn this country for the sake of ideology into the 51 US state, a basket case at that! But hey it looks great from Canberra! And we can always have tourism and mining!
Rudderless1- a succinct summary
Sunfish-Exactly once "intangible" goodwill translates into "tangibles" on the cashflow then we stand a chance..
Sitting in sheltered workshops workchoices and Dixon represent a new march to efficiency.........As delusional as lil Johnny (the iron man this) is Dixon wants these provisions it represents his best chance to drive cost down(Nb: PAF static revenue at QF growing the company in the last 3 years take vision and skill-cost cutting the cutprice management technique). The nature of the states challenge means he must push ahead quickly as the High Court may not see the workchoices as a good thing!
It is always the most ignorant that see things as so black and white..
Workchoices
"Unfair dismissal provisions apply to flight crew",
Next paragraph "unfair dismissal doesn't apply to those grossing more than $94,000"....
Keep on reading these are scary provisions, Lil johnny will turn this country for the sake of ideology into the 51 US state, a basket case at that! But hey it looks great from Canberra! And we can always have tourism and mining!
Rudderless1- a succinct summary
Sunfish-Exactly once "intangible" goodwill translates into "tangibles" on the cashflow then we stand a chance..