Pilots ready to fight Jetstar in court
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Once again, I have a number of friends who fly for Jet* and they are not complaining.
One of the biggest problem with the Jet* pilots is the immaturity of their management /supervisory pilots.
Immaturity in terms of time they flew with experienced Captains, prior to them (the J* supervisories) getting their command. The vast majority did only 3 or 4 years as Ansett F/O's prior to their rapid rise in status.
And it shows (according to other pilots, who don't have a shady background.)
These are still the same pilots who want EVERYTHING NOW.
But I suspect that the company has another solution in mind - it won't be the current Jet* pilots, nor the QF gents who end up with this flying.
BTW, ys120fz, the miniscule amount of flying you did overseas doesn't qualify you to represent yourself to other Jet* pilots as anyhing other than what they know you as.
Aviation is such a tiny world, isn't it!
Originally Posted by Ronnie Honker
O The vast majority did only 3 or 4 years as Ansett F/O's prior to their rapid rise in status. And it shows (according to other pilots, who don't have a shady background.) !
There is considerable trollop in your post. Vast majority 3-4 year AN F/O's? I would suggest the vast majority have at least 5000 hours on type. And after flying A320's the Ansett way, should have considerable, adaptive ability to operate the toned down Airbus way.
Ansett F/O a shady background? You are joking right? Due to the inexperience levels in J*, I have been told it is this very 'shady' background that is welcomed.
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Ronnie – Your comments about Jetstar show you are clueless about the ex ansett staff in the company and the industry in general. Any airline pilot from Asia or Europe would wet themselves laughing at this one – “The vast majority did only 3 or 4 years as Ansett F/O's prior to their rapid rise in status”. Such comments show how narrowly you view the industry with purely an “Australian” perspective.
The ex ansett guys have airbus experience by the truckloads – even by Australian standards.
“One of the biggest problem with the Jet* pilots is the immaturity of their management /supervisory pilots.” – another ignorant bollocks statement but more important – what exactly is the “problem” you refer to. Have Jetstar been sending aeroplanes off the runway in BKK. Maybe a stick shaker or two as the SO swaps seats with the FO on approach with manual thrust. Or is the ground in Canberra a little bit too close for the GPWS. What problems are plaguing jetstar that QF have managed to resolve?
This QF high and mighty stuff is laughable – the number of ex ansett drivers who joined QF and have subsequently left in disgust is quite high. All my mates but one have pulled the pin and gone elsewhere – aviation does not start and finish with Qantas. It’s probably a great place to join out of GA where they can mould your brain but anyone with previous airline experience and a bit of nouse just laughs at the crap that goes on across the pacific. Most of your managers have spent their career sitting on their duff in a straight line barely scraping together a couple of sectors per month.
You should spend your time worrying about real issues instead of crying about the inevitable change that affects EVERYONE during their career.
The ex ansett guys have airbus experience by the truckloads – even by Australian standards.
“One of the biggest problem with the Jet* pilots is the immaturity of their management /supervisory pilots.” – another ignorant bollocks statement but more important – what exactly is the “problem” you refer to. Have Jetstar been sending aeroplanes off the runway in BKK. Maybe a stick shaker or two as the SO swaps seats with the FO on approach with manual thrust. Or is the ground in Canberra a little bit too close for the GPWS. What problems are plaguing jetstar that QF have managed to resolve?
This QF high and mighty stuff is laughable – the number of ex ansett drivers who joined QF and have subsequently left in disgust is quite high. All my mates but one have pulled the pin and gone elsewhere – aviation does not start and finish with Qantas. It’s probably a great place to join out of GA where they can mould your brain but anyone with previous airline experience and a bit of nouse just laughs at the crap that goes on across the pacific. Most of your managers have spent their career sitting on their duff in a straight line barely scraping together a couple of sectors per month.
You should spend your time worrying about real issues instead of crying about the inevitable change that affects EVERYONE during their career.
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The ex-AN pilots might have lots of hours, but the base upon which they were built is not a solid one.
The majority of the Jet* supervisories did very little time as F/O's in Ansett, prior to putting the knife into their (senior) colleagues' backs, in order to get themselves a quick command.
Almost to a man, none of them could cut it when they were forced to go overseas following the collapse of Ansett, and are now back in Australia on salaries far less than their QF or VB counterparts.
They're NOW being paid what the company really knows they're worth - hence the $100 LESS than QF pilots to fly the A330.
Inferior products are always sold out at lower prices.
And to prove that correct 0they accepted the lower conditions.
Remember, not ALL pilots within Joke* are ex-AN Mafiosa - many have considerably more experience, and are able to see the joke that the Jet* upper pilots levels are.
The majority of the Jet* supervisories did very little time as F/O's in Ansett, prior to putting the knife into their (senior) colleagues' backs, in order to get themselves a quick command.
Almost to a man, none of them could cut it when they were forced to go overseas following the collapse of Ansett, and are now back in Australia on salaries far less than their QF or VB counterparts.
They're NOW being paid what the company really knows they're worth - hence the $100 LESS than QF pilots to fly the A330.
Inferior products are always sold out at lower prices.
And to prove that correct 0they accepted the lower conditions.
Remember, not ALL pilots within Joke* are ex-AN Mafiosa - many have considerably more experience, and are able to see the joke that the Jet* upper pilots levels are.
What a load of rubbish Ronnie.
The former Impulse in QF guise, could never have been expanded quick enough and with the regulatory ease, without the significant AN component.
Dixon wanted the Ansett 320 operation all along. With it, he could have smashed Virgin Blue's aspirations for a bigger part of market share, within months of Ansett's collapse. If he got his original way, I imagine the Impulse drivers would be living a nice life on 717's in the West or something similar. The AN 320 operation would be the low cost J* operator, expanding as rapid as Dixon wanted, or, needed.
The ACTU wouldn't have it. The Administrators wouldn't have it and cabinet decided against QF dominance of the domestic market. And it would seem, quietly ensured Virgin Blue could ramp up as best it could over time, without interference from an aggressive QF, to meet a politically agreed % of market share.
In the end, Dixon got the Ansett 320 operation. For virtually nothing!
The former Impulse in QF guise, could never have been expanded quick enough and with the regulatory ease, without the significant AN component.
Dixon wanted the Ansett 320 operation all along. With it, he could have smashed Virgin Blue's aspirations for a bigger part of market share, within months of Ansett's collapse. If he got his original way, I imagine the Impulse drivers would be living a nice life on 717's in the West or something similar. The AN 320 operation would be the low cost J* operator, expanding as rapid as Dixon wanted, or, needed.
The ACTU wouldn't have it. The Administrators wouldn't have it and cabinet decided against QF dominance of the domestic market. And it would seem, quietly ensured Virgin Blue could ramp up as best it could over time, without interference from an aggressive QF, to meet a politically agreed % of market share.
In the end, Dixon got the Ansett 320 operation. For virtually nothing!
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Ronnie – gotcha. Right. Sorry, I didn’t realize that Jetstar was in a pickle because of events from 17 years ago. Such a logical position for you to take. I should have known.
"but the base upon which they were built is not a solid one"
But let me guess, being an SO then FO for QF is a solid foundation for being a skipper at QF.
"but the base upon which they were built is not a solid one"
But let me guess, being an SO then FO for QF is a solid foundation for being a skipper at QF.
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Hauler, the wheel is inversely proportional to the square of the brain that keeps it turning.
Big wheel, sm all brain ; bigger wheel smaller brain; big, big wheel, miniscule brain.
And It seems that there are stillsome at Qantas who fall for their own propaganda. Oh dear!
AnQrka, I agree. After years of flying overseas, seeing the standarde, and then seeing the former AN operators, they are a quality product.
Big wheel, sm all brain ; bigger wheel smaller brain; big, big wheel, miniscule brain.
And It seems that there are stillsome at Qantas who fall for their own propaganda. Oh dear!
AnQrka, I agree. After years of flying overseas, seeing the standarde, and then seeing the former AN operators, they are a quality product.
Last edited by relax737; 16th Mar 2006 at 06:58.
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It's rather strange then that those "quaqlity products" weren't able to cut it overseas - China Airlines, Silk Air, Emirates.
Jet* has been the saving grace that has permitted those "quaqlity products" to retain a job flying, because almost to a man they are rejects from the jobs they tried to get overseas, hence the (miserable) salaries they are on now, and that they accepted, knowing their true worth.
Back now amongst their (mainly) own, the navel gazing has started again.
You are dead right there Dynasty Trash man!
Jet* has been the saving grace that has permitted those "quaqlity products" to retain a job flying, because almost to a man they are rejects from the jobs they tried to get overseas, hence the (miserable) salaries they are on now, and that they accepted, knowing their true worth.
Back now amongst their (mainly) own, the navel gazing has started again.
it was a small wheel - it ground to a halt years and years ago.
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Don't you just know when a man's argument is hollow??? It's when he goes for the typos because there is no substance to what he says.
CoB is quite right, but CoB some have nothing in their miserable lives but this, so they regurgitate it time and again. Let's not rehash the same old rubbish yet again Honks.
Qantas indeed has bigger fish to fry Ronnie. Better getinto the kitchen andon the job.
If you want some examples of rejects immediately post the debacle, let me know. That was when the seniorpilots left, advising alland sundry that they'd be back to take their jobs when ready. They thought they'd be welcomed with open arms but many couldn't cut the mustard; small fish in a big po nd syndrome.
CoB is quite right, but CoB some have nothing in their miserable lives but this, so they regurgitate it time and again. Let's not rehash the same old rubbish yet again Honks.
Qantas indeed has bigger fish to fry Ronnie. Better getinto the kitchen andon the job.
If you want some examples of rejects immediately post the debacle, let me know. That was when the seniorpilots left, advising alland sundry that they'd be back to take their jobs when ready. They thought they'd be welcomed with open arms but many couldn't cut the mustard; small fish in a big po nd syndrome.
Last edited by relax737; 16th Mar 2006 at 06:59.
'Transfer of Business'
I wasn't sure what it meant so I've asked a few informal questions around the place. The answers surprised me because it appears that many, like me, have misunderstood what the court action is about. Maybe I still do too, but I'll try to explain how things are in my understanding.
- companies have not been allowed, in the past, to just 'rebadge' equipment and then give it to a new group of employees on discounted conditions,
- QF, in giving some of its own A330s (flown under a recognized pilot contract) to a new wholly-owned-subsidiary on varied conditions for the same type of flying, might be construed as doing exactly that, hence the court action,
- if the court action wins it does NOT mean that J*Int can't have the jets or that J* pilots can't do the flying,
- it DOES mean that any pilots flying those aircraft should be paid in accordance with the pre-established norm for the job,
- if the action is not successful then QF pilots were wrong I guess (yeah, not the first time I know!) and
- it doesn't mean it's not the truth either, but rather that QF has a bigger legal team!
So the cynics might disagree but it seems to me that, even if 'successful' (and it is a shame it's come to this), QF pilots will not be stealing J*Int flying but rather making a sensible effort to narrow the threatening wages gap... Better late than never, and who in J* can't honestly say they wouldn't prefer an instant +30% payrise for the new opportunity?
Counter-views welcome; avoid sledging please.
- companies have not been allowed, in the past, to just 'rebadge' equipment and then give it to a new group of employees on discounted conditions,
- QF, in giving some of its own A330s (flown under a recognized pilot contract) to a new wholly-owned-subsidiary on varied conditions for the same type of flying, might be construed as doing exactly that, hence the court action,
- if the court action wins it does NOT mean that J*Int can't have the jets or that J* pilots can't do the flying,
- it DOES mean that any pilots flying those aircraft should be paid in accordance with the pre-established norm for the job,
- if the action is not successful then QF pilots were wrong I guess (yeah, not the first time I know!) and
- it doesn't mean it's not the truth either, but rather that QF has a bigger legal team!
So the cynics might disagree but it seems to me that, even if 'successful' (and it is a shame it's come to this), QF pilots will not be stealing J*Int flying but rather making a sensible effort to narrow the threatening wages gap... Better late than never, and who in J* can't honestly say they wouldn't prefer an instant +30% payrise for the new opportunity?
Counter-views welcome; avoid sledging please.
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Quote Ronnnie Honker:
BTW, ys120fz, the miniscule amount of flying you did overseas doesn't qualify you to represent yourself to other Jet* pilots as anyhing other than what they know you as.
Aviation is such a tiny world, isn't it!
Ronnie my friend, you are obviously mistaken. Firstly I am not a Jet* pilot.
Secondly I currently fly international ops and have done for many years. Maybe I need to edit my profile to make it easier for you.
Relax 737 has it right.
The size of the wheel IS inversely proportional to square of the size of the the size of the brain that keeps it turning!!
BTW, ys120fz, the miniscule amount of flying you did overseas doesn't qualify you to represent yourself to other Jet* pilots as anyhing other than what they know you as.
Aviation is such a tiny world, isn't it!
Ronnie my friend, you are obviously mistaken. Firstly I am not a Jet* pilot.
Secondly I currently fly international ops and have done for many years. Maybe I need to edit my profile to make it easier for you.
Relax 737 has it right.
The size of the wheel IS inversely proportional to square of the size of the the size of the brain that keeps it turning!!
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Originally Posted by Ronnie Honker
You're correct, sadly, turbantime - the salary for LOCAL pilots is around Oz G.A. level (and even less). However, for experienced expatriates, the packages offered are on a par with - and in some cases, better than - that being offered in most other countries.
I can assure you, from 1st hand knowledge
that foreign pilots are being offered contracts that pay USD10.5k, per month.
Over time, the Indian pilots will also see their conditions improve - unless the Jet* pilots go across there, and offer to fly the new, shiney aircraft for less!
I can assure you, from 1st hand knowledge
that foreign pilots are being offered contracts that pay USD10.5k, per month.Over time, the Indian pilots will also see their conditions improve - unless the Jet* pilots go across there, and offer to fly the new, shiney aircraft for less!
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Quote Ronnnie Honker:
BTW, ys120fz, the miniscule amount of flying you did overseas doesn't qualify you to represent yourself to other Jet* pilots as anyhing other than what they know you as.
Aviation is such a tiny world, isn't it!
Ronnie my friend, you are obviously mistaken. Firstly I am not a Jet* pilot.
Secondly I currently fly international ops and have done for many years. Maybe I need to edit my profile to make it easier for you.
Again quote RH:
It's rather strange then that those "quaqlity products" weren't able to cut it overseas - China Airlines, Silk Air, Emirates.
Jet* has been the saving grace that has permitted those "quaqlity products" to retain a job flying, because almost to a man they are rejects from the jobs they tried to get overseas, hence the (miserable) salaries they are on now, and that they accepted, knowing their true worth.
I too have seen the quality of former AN guys and their standard is GOOD. I would think very few didn't cut it elsewhere, but many went home to work for a lot less in a country they enjoy living in, aren't treated poorly, and which is safe.
Relax 737 has it right.
The size of the wheel IS inversely proportional to square of the size of the the size of the brain that keeps it turning
Jetsbest, I agree with all you say but will the court. I bet QF management will be arguing the case that it is not economical for them to operate, and they will pull out completely and not replace the route with Jetstar if they lose. It will beinteresting to see how the court sees it.
I think, going back a while, that most of us saw it as Jet* not operating across the same routes as QF at the same time, but Dixon seems to be attempting to get around that by just replacing QF with Jet* on certain routes, Melbourne- Darwin being one.
In fact, I've booked to travel on that Qf flight in a few weeks, some time before Jet* is scheduled to start ops on the route, but was called last week and told it was cancelled and I would have to travel via Sydney. It seems the dirty tricks department may already be swinging into action.
Are any QF crew able to confirm the loads, generally, on the MEL-DRW route?
BTW, ys120fz, the miniscule amount of flying you did overseas doesn't qualify you to represent yourself to other Jet* pilots as anyhing other than what they know you as.
Aviation is such a tiny world, isn't it!
Ronnie my friend, you are obviously mistaken. Firstly I am not a Jet* pilot.
Secondly I currently fly international ops and have done for many years. Maybe I need to edit my profile to make it easier for you.
Again quote RH:
It's rather strange then that those "quaqlity products" weren't able to cut it overseas - China Airlines, Silk Air, Emirates.
Jet* has been the saving grace that has permitted those "quaqlity products" to retain a job flying, because almost to a man they are rejects from the jobs they tried to get overseas, hence the (miserable) salaries they are on now, and that they accepted, knowing their true worth.
I too have seen the quality of former AN guys and their standard is GOOD. I would think very few didn't cut it elsewhere, but many went home to work for a lot less in a country they enjoy living in, aren't treated poorly, and which is safe.
Relax 737 has it right.
The size of the wheel IS inversely proportional to square of the size of the the size of the brain that keeps it turning
Jetsbest, I agree with all you say but will the court. I bet QF management will be arguing the case that it is not economical for them to operate, and they will pull out completely and not replace the route with Jetstar if they lose. It will beinteresting to see how the court sees it.
I think, going back a while, that most of us saw it as Jet* not operating across the same routes as QF at the same time, but Dixon seems to be attempting to get around that by just replacing QF with Jet* on certain routes, Melbourne- Darwin being one.
In fact, I've booked to travel on that Qf flight in a few weeks, some time before Jet* is scheduled to start ops on the route, but was called last week and told it was cancelled and I would have to travel via Sydney. It seems the dirty tricks department may already be swinging into action.
Are any QF crew able to confirm the loads, generally, on the MEL-DRW route?
Last edited by ys120fz; 19th Mar 2006 at 06:26.
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“QF pilots will not be stealing J*Int flying but rather making a sensible effort to narrow the threatening wages gap...” Well now, does that effort include volunteering for a 30% paycut (and several other worse conditions) to fly in the right seat of a JQ A320?
“Better late than never, and who in J* can't honestly say they wouldn't prefer an instant +30% payrise for the new opportunity?” Not aware of a JQ pilot ever gone as low as a QF pilot in accepting a +30% paycut. AIPA pilots care to comment?
“Better late than never, and who in J* can't honestly say they wouldn't prefer an instant +30% payrise for the new opportunity?” Not aware of a JQ pilot ever gone as low as a QF pilot in accepting a +30% paycut. AIPA pilots care to comment?
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I joined the Hall of Shame apparently...
To summarise. It was probably a SO whose cherished dream of a window seat has been put back many years by the advent of J*.
Mr Packer. Every Jetstar pilot went at least that low when they accepted both the domestic(which no-one really blames them for) and the International (which everyone blames them for) deals. FACT.
To summarise. It was probably a SO whose cherished dream of a window seat has been put back many years by the advent of J*.
Mr Packer. Every Jetstar pilot went at least that low when they accepted both the domestic(which no-one really blames them for) and the International (which everyone blames them for) deals. FACT.
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Keg/TCOB,
I think you're both defending the indefensible. Packer has a point- Our S/O's who went to J* are no better than the J* guys going international. Neither group had a gun to their head and both are looking for 'promotions' regardless of the price. That's partly why I voted against the MOU. A promotion should mean a payrise. Full stop. End of story. It's got nothing to do with which seat you're in. If you accept a crap deal just to 'build up time,' you need a trip to the hall of mirrors. The same will be true if any a330 F/O or S/O goes to Jet* on the current conditions.
I think you're both defending the indefensible. Packer has a point- Our S/O's who went to J* are no better than the J* guys going international. Neither group had a gun to their head and both are looking for 'promotions' regardless of the price. That's partly why I voted against the MOU. A promotion should mean a payrise. Full stop. End of story. It's got nothing to do with which seat you're in. If you accept a crap deal just to 'build up time,' you need a trip to the hall of mirrors. The same will be true if any a330 F/O or S/O goes to Jet* on the current conditions.