Two biscuits costs Qantas cleaner his job
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Two biscuits costs Qantas cleaner his job
A Melbourne cleaner was sacked from the great Australian airline yesterday over the alleged theft of 2 biscuits from an aircraft after a snap bag raid at the exit gate of Melbourne terminal. The staff member was asked by security guards about the origin of the 2 Oreo delights and readily agreed that they had come from a Qantas aircraft. When asked how they had found there way into his bag he made it clear that he was unsure and his bag was sitting for the length of the shift in an open area accessible by many fellow cleaners and supervisors. They decided to sack him anyway. The union representing him will be challenging the dismissal in the AIRC and a collection is underway to help the father of 3 support his family until the matter is resolved. The decision by management opens a few questions that I’d like answered.
Can a manager or management stooge plant Qantas property in another employee’s bag in order to get them sacked?
Do Qantas presume their staff guilty and stop paying their wages until their innocence is proven?
Have Qantas HR moved to Bali and now base there standards on those set by the local government?
Two other cleaners were questioned on the same day over Qantas property found in their bags and accepted the offer by the airline to resign on the spot. In each case the goods were worth less than $5 and the staff openly admitted that the goods belonged to Qantas but considered the theft trivial and that honesty would be the best policy. All staff members at Melbourne airport are being advised to say nothing, admit no guilt and if asked to open bags on departure demand a union rep be present during the searches.
Can a manager or management stooge plant Qantas property in another employee’s bag in order to get them sacked?
Do Qantas presume their staff guilty and stop paying their wages until their innocence is proven?
Have Qantas HR moved to Bali and now base there standards on those set by the local government?
Two other cleaners were questioned on the same day over Qantas property found in their bags and accepted the offer by the airline to resign on the spot. In each case the goods were worth less than $5 and the staff openly admitted that the goods belonged to Qantas but considered the theft trivial and that honesty would be the best policy. All staff members at Melbourne airport are being advised to say nothing, admit no guilt and if asked to open bags on departure demand a union rep be present during the searches.
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It’s like being pregnant – either you are or you are not. You can’t be a little bit pregnant. Theft is theft and, in this case, it is larceny as a servant (stealing from your employer) which the courts regard as a more serious form of theft as you, as a trusted employee, have betrayed that trust by stealing from your boss.
I’ll admit that being sacked for stealing two biscuits seems a bit rich. It sounds like the airline is reverting to our heritage where you could be transported to the colonies for stealing a loaf of bread.
Is there are milder form of “punishment” that they could have imposed on the employee? As I don’t work in the industry, I don’t know for sure. I suspect that there is probably not, as there are not many organisations have any form of disciplinary provisions incorporated in their Certified Agreement, so they must revert to the law.
I’ll admit that being sacked for stealing two biscuits seems a bit rich. It sounds like the airline is reverting to our heritage where you could be transported to the colonies for stealing a loaf of bread.
Is there are milder form of “punishment” that they could have imposed on the employee? As I don’t work in the industry, I don’t know for sure. I suspect that there is probably not, as there are not many organisations have any form of disciplinary provisions incorporated in their Certified Agreement, so they must revert to the law.
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..if it were isolated, if it never, ever happened, if Qantas, like every other major airline in the world didn't have to spend millions every year investigating and preventing it from happening, then, yes, being fired for stealing 2 biscuits is wrong.
But the truth is, and I am sure Qantas could demonstrate it, that staff theft of company property is a major issue that affects the company in many ways, from the bottom line (which affects your pay) through to the morale of staff who don't steal but know others that do and are compromised by the overwhelming backlash that they would receive from the many perpetrators and their union if they were to try to stop it.
I flew international the other day and watched as the flight attendants spent the entire flight showering a recently married couple who were both flight attendants for the same airline with the fodder from first class, and on arrival gave them a box with at least a half a dozen bottles of wine and other goodies inside.
Fact - all the airlines are desperately seeking ways to cut costs. The reason they go after your salaries is because it is overwhelmingly difficult to resolve some inefficiencies, which includes theft. In an airline as large as QF it would be like plugging the proverbial dike. I know for a fact that during my short tenure at Ansett we had conservatively estimated that theft and fraud was costing us $A30m a year. Imagine if that money had been going to the bottom line? I also remember vividly the day that a husband and wife couple at MEL airport were caught with their fingers in the till and had been at it for years. They admitted what they had done and defiantly boasted that they had been doing it for years. Where was the union? Right beside them trying to get them their jobs back. Reason? They blamed Ansett for creating an environment where it could happen and that poor working class employees could be tempted. And then came the sob stories about being unemployed, unemployable and with 3 children to raise. The fact is they made their choice, they knew the risks and still they did it.
Many of you would remember a time maybe 3 decades ago when this wasn't an issue. Now you spend your days pointing at the evil of management and their heavy handed attitudes. QF, just like Ansett, is not a cash-cow. The money can dry up. If that day ever comes (and I pray that it doesn't) will you, like many Ansett employees, deny your involvement in its downfall through sheer greed, inefficiency or theft? You should all circle the wagons around your beloved airline and realise that you can contribute to its and your success simply with a change of attitude. And remember, the better you are the more you highlight the incompetence of any half-baked managers that sit above you. Management can only hide when staff problems are a distraction.
But the truth is, and I am sure Qantas could demonstrate it, that staff theft of company property is a major issue that affects the company in many ways, from the bottom line (which affects your pay) through to the morale of staff who don't steal but know others that do and are compromised by the overwhelming backlash that they would receive from the many perpetrators and their union if they were to try to stop it.
I flew international the other day and watched as the flight attendants spent the entire flight showering a recently married couple who were both flight attendants for the same airline with the fodder from first class, and on arrival gave them a box with at least a half a dozen bottles of wine and other goodies inside.
Fact - all the airlines are desperately seeking ways to cut costs. The reason they go after your salaries is because it is overwhelmingly difficult to resolve some inefficiencies, which includes theft. In an airline as large as QF it would be like plugging the proverbial dike. I know for a fact that during my short tenure at Ansett we had conservatively estimated that theft and fraud was costing us $A30m a year. Imagine if that money had been going to the bottom line? I also remember vividly the day that a husband and wife couple at MEL airport were caught with their fingers in the till and had been at it for years. They admitted what they had done and defiantly boasted that they had been doing it for years. Where was the union? Right beside them trying to get them their jobs back. Reason? They blamed Ansett for creating an environment where it could happen and that poor working class employees could be tempted. And then came the sob stories about being unemployed, unemployable and with 3 children to raise. The fact is they made their choice, they knew the risks and still they did it.
Many of you would remember a time maybe 3 decades ago when this wasn't an issue. Now you spend your days pointing at the evil of management and their heavy handed attitudes. QF, just like Ansett, is not a cash-cow. The money can dry up. If that day ever comes (and I pray that it doesn't) will you, like many Ansett employees, deny your involvement in its downfall through sheer greed, inefficiency or theft? You should all circle the wagons around your beloved airline and realise that you can contribute to its and your success simply with a change of attitude. And remember, the better you are the more you highlight the incompetence of any half-baked managers that sit above you. Management can only hide when staff problems are a distraction.
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So you are to finish work at 5.00pm and you work to 5.02pm, I bet Qantas don't pay you for the 2 minutes. Is that theft by Qantas.
I wouldn't want to be paid. I think the whole company has to work together but sometimes you wonder if the company wants that. Love to look at a company credit card statement from the top floor boys and girls.
I wouldn't want to be paid. I think the whole company has to work together but sometimes you wonder if the company wants that. Love to look at a company credit card statement from the top floor boys and girls.
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Whoever is innocent can throw the first stone
You are all right when you say that theft is wrong and should not be condoned.
However, there are a number of penalties that can be applied to any crime or do you believe that the death penalty or whatever the maximum penalty is should be enacted to any wrongdoing.
Years ago a major soft drink company as well as a well known chocolate manufacturer decided that petty theft was getting out of hand .Both companies put free samples of their products around the factories. Within a short time there was basically no theft as people were literally sick of chocolate and soft drink. There are always alternatives to the maximum penalty if you wish.
To those people who decided to sack the cleaner or those who condone the sacking, I wonder if you have ever made a personal phone call from an office phone or taken a pen or writing pad home. In fact it would be a reasonably safe bet that there is not one person that has not. Theft is theft and you cannot isolate any group from that concept or punishment.
If you want to stop theft then make a specific deterrent that would stop them without taking the draconian move of sacking someone and removing their ability to make a living. Take away their staff travel for 3 years or the company contributions to their super. You can make the deterrent so ridiculous that only a complete fool would take anything and if someone does commit an act of theft then I doubt anyone else would after that example was made.
Are we losing our humanity or are we all just numbers to utilized and discarded.
However, there are a number of penalties that can be applied to any crime or do you believe that the death penalty or whatever the maximum penalty is should be enacted to any wrongdoing.
Years ago a major soft drink company as well as a well known chocolate manufacturer decided that petty theft was getting out of hand .Both companies put free samples of their products around the factories. Within a short time there was basically no theft as people were literally sick of chocolate and soft drink. There are always alternatives to the maximum penalty if you wish.
To those people who decided to sack the cleaner or those who condone the sacking, I wonder if you have ever made a personal phone call from an office phone or taken a pen or writing pad home. In fact it would be a reasonably safe bet that there is not one person that has not. Theft is theft and you cannot isolate any group from that concept or punishment.
If you want to stop theft then make a specific deterrent that would stop them without taking the draconian move of sacking someone and removing their ability to make a living. Take away their staff travel for 3 years or the company contributions to their super. You can make the deterrent so ridiculous that only a complete fool would take anything and if someone does commit an act of theft then I doubt anyone else would after that example was made.
Are we losing our humanity or are we all just numbers to utilized and discarded.
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So any food that is going to be thrown out anyway is stealing!!!!!
I'm not sure where you work but you have never made a personal call from an office phone????
Whats the old saying about people in glass houses?
I'm not sure where you work but you have never made a personal call from an office phone????
Whats the old saying about people in glass houses?
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Hmmm...
How about a stern warning ..along the lines of "the next time you step out of line it will be your last".
Thats sounds a bit fairer to me.
Then again there are 3 sides to the story and we've only been privvy to one.
How about a stern warning ..along the lines of "the next time you step out of line it will be your last".
Thats sounds a bit fairer to me.
Then again there are 3 sides to the story and we've only been privvy to one.
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I would bet that 'IF' this is the first time the worker has faced disciplinary action, the case will be thrown out and the worker reinstated because the disciplinary action was in all the circumstances harsh and unreasonable.
However, 'IF' the worker has had prior disciplinary action against them for stealing and had been warned before that he would face dismissal if he did it again, then dismissal may be justified.
Dismissal should be the last resort, not the first.
This may be perfectly justifiable action in the circumstances, or, a case of over enthusiastic incompetent management.
We will have to wait until we hear the facts.
However, 'IF' the worker has had prior disciplinary action against them for stealing and had been warned before that he would face dismissal if he did it again, then dismissal may be justified.
Dismissal should be the last resort, not the first.
This may be perfectly justifiable action in the circumstances, or, a case of over enthusiastic incompetent management.
We will have to wait until we hear the facts.
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Originally Posted by alidad
About time too. Sick of the passing parade of baggage handlers, honey cart drivers etc who head straight to the galley on turn around to get a free feed.
It is theft-no more, no less.
It is theft-no more, no less.
Ever noticed the Engineers dive on board to collect the used newspapers, is this theft also?
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Have to agree that theft is theft and needs to be punished but the punishment needs to fit the crime. That though is not the key issue. The man has been assumed guilty and now he can't feed his family. His bag was left in an open area (as all are) and anyone could have placed the biscuits in there. If the airline can get away with this the door is open to set up any outspoken opponent of the system by simply planting Qf property on them. Surely he needs to be proven guilty before his livelyhood is removed and on the current evidence no court in this land would convict him of theft.
I am an engineer in Adl and wonder if I take a few screws out to replace a component and leave an extra in my pocket, can I lose my job if it gets found on the way out? Ever gone home with a Qantas pen? How far are they going to take this?
I am an engineer in Adl and wonder if I take a few screws out to replace a component and leave an extra in my pocket, can I lose my job if it gets found on the way out? Ever gone home with a Qantas pen? How far are they going to take this?
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qfcainer
If you want a technical reply … …
The newspaper is owned by the airline when they purchase it.
They give it to a passenger, therefore ownership passes to the pax.
The pax chucks it in the bin when finished and, believe it or not, ownership then passes to the owner or organisation authorised to empty the bin.
If you want a technical reply … …
The newspaper is owned by the airline when they purchase it.
They give it to a passenger, therefore ownership passes to the pax.
The pax chucks it in the bin when finished and, believe it or not, ownership then passes to the owner or organisation authorised to empty the bin.
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It never ceases to amaze me how many would be executioners there are posting here....
As I said before the first one here that has never stolen anything in their life can throw the first stone...
Whether that is a phone call , a pen or note pad or a biscuit that was going to be thrown out or whatever...
As I said before the first one here that has never stolen anything in their life can throw the first stone...
Whether that is a phone call , a pen or note pad or a biscuit that was going to be thrown out or whatever...
Nunc est bibendum
Originally Posted by Minimbah
The newspaper is owned by the airline when they purchase it.
They give it to a passenger, therefore ownership passes to the pax.
The pax chucks it in the bin when finished and, believe it or not, ownership then passes to the owner or organisation authorised to empty the bin.
They give it to a passenger, therefore ownership passes to the pax.
The pax chucks it in the bin when finished and, believe it or not, ownership then passes to the owner or organisation authorised to empty the bin.
What if the skipper gives me his as well!
Evertonian
Plenty of give & take in the past. If QF Mgmnt decide to throw that out, then they will be drawing a line in the sand. Although, in todays climate & the current attitude of QF Mgmnt, this is probably a provocation to the Union. "Take us on, we're ready." is what they are probably thinking.
If I were an unfortunate employee of QF, I'd be keeping very quiet & making sure my nose was clean!
As for this chap, if he was the first ever to take a biscuit, then I'd be suprised. Perhaps you should all send an e-mail to your supervisors asking if it's okay to "borrow" some water, cups, teabags/coffee, sugar, milk & spoons? Make sure that you finish by saying that you will duly deposit the by-products wherever management would like.
If I were an unfortunate employee of QF, I'd be keeping very quiet & making sure my nose was clean!
As for this chap, if he was the first ever to take a biscuit, then I'd be suprised. Perhaps you should all send an e-mail to your supervisors asking if it's okay to "borrow" some water, cups, teabags/coffee, sugar, milk & spoons? Make sure that you finish by saying that you will duly deposit the by-products wherever management would like.
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Heh heh. Keg, I don't know about crew choccy bars, but I can positively, 100% guarantee that I will never be caught 'stealing' a leftover crew meal. Or if I was, I would expect to be bundled off for a psychiatric assessment!
That aside, a sacking for the above-mentioned offence, whether proven or not, is a bit rich. The company clearly doesn't believe in the punishment fitting the crime.
That aside, a sacking for the above-mentioned offence, whether proven or not, is a bit rich. The company clearly doesn't believe in the punishment fitting the crime.
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"Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone"
Sounds like we have a few angels on PPRUNE!!!!!!!!!!
The simple fact is that our "illustrious" management have picked on the weakest employee group they could and come down hard. It is a simple case of bullying and they've done it simply because they know they can get away with it.
Ask one of our former directers Trevor Kennedy about st***ing. I do believe there was a well publicised ASIC investigation in elaborate Swiss banking accounts that involved Offset Alpine and alleged insurance fraud. I bet our poor cleaner can't top that!!!
I don't condone stealing a packet of biscuits or anything else but I despise bullying, especially by managers.
Sounds like we have a few angels on PPRUNE!!!!!!!!!!
The simple fact is that our "illustrious" management have picked on the weakest employee group they could and come down hard. It is a simple case of bullying and they've done it simply because they know they can get away with it.
Ask one of our former directers Trevor Kennedy about st***ing. I do believe there was a well publicised ASIC investigation in elaborate Swiss banking accounts that involved Offset Alpine and alleged insurance fraud. I bet our poor cleaner can't top that!!!
I don't condone stealing a packet of biscuits or anything else but I despise bullying, especially by managers.