Race to the Bottom PART II
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I wasn't suggesting outsourcing ADF jobs Passa, but I was stating that those "men and women in uniform" - who are paid, by the way (they don't do it for love) - drawing their salary from the public purse, don't appear to be performing as well as their lesser/nil paid opponents.
Perhaps we Aussies should send ALL of our jobs offshore, and just enjoy the beaches.
Oh, hang on a minute, there are riots there again.
Perhaps we Aussies should send ALL of our jobs offshore, and just enjoy the beaches.
Oh, hang on a minute, there are riots there again.
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Ronnie H,
You do the military a disservice. They won the military battle in Tet 68 but every thing was thrown away by the politicians not being able to withstand the forth estate and protests at home.
Twenty years on, and Americans and Australians were taught a lesson in geurilla warfare by the North Vietnamese, aka the Vietcong, ending in defeat for the Western forces
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At risk of thread creep.... [you really should start a new thread if you want to discuss the worth of the ADF]
So precisely what performance measure are you using? How many Australian casualties have "our opponents" inflicted in the last decade in Timur Leste, Solomons, ICAT [Afghan], Iraq and Sudan?
Obviously you see the intel reports that show how many times Australian military forces are actually shot at / engaged on a day to day basis, right?
I think you'll find quite a significant number of pilots stay in the RAAF because they love it - instead of joining the flow to QANTAS or Cathay, etc?
Me personally, I want to work in Airline management
don't appear to be performing as well as their lesser/nil paid opponents
Obviously you see the intel reports that show how many times Australian military forces are actually shot at / engaged on a day to day basis, right?
I think you'll find quite a significant number of pilots stay in the RAAF because they love it - instead of joining the flow to QANTAS or Cathay, etc?
Me personally, I want to work in Airline management
Last edited by Pass-A-Frozo; 18th Dec 2005 at 04:46.
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This forum is ONLY for "men and women in uniform" who want to sledge Australian professional pilots!
If you don't like the fact that there are heaps of underpaid but qualified pilots out there who are quite willing to fly commercial jets doing RPT around Australia for peanuts, and relatively new companies out there who are more than willing to hire them, and that we are seriously struggling to hold onto our current conditions, then that's too bad (incidentally, I don't like that fact either - too bad for me also). I hear Chinese aviation is booming and they have a shortage of pilots, so I imagine their pay is going up and up. Perhaps you could apply for a job with China Southern?
None of this has anything to do with military versus commercial, or working for the Government (and believe me, there are people out there employed by the government who for some mysterious reason work their rings off for sweet nothing compared to what they could get in the commercial world). So let the personal sledging continue if you must, but we could all lay off the generalisations, like (and I accept this wasn't your quote HI'er - it could only come from someone living in far far away Ronnie Honkerland):
those "men and women in uniform" - who are paid, by the way (they don't do it for love) - drawing their salary from the public purse, don't appear to be performing as well as their lesser/nil paid opponents
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the sheer frustration of the bureaucracy!
(3 1/2 years ROSO to go!) To many parts of the RAAF sticking it's nose into personal stuff!
I think I'll do my next tour then look elsewhere - not necessarily flying. Wouldn't mind airline management..
PAF
As you have alluded to, there is a cold wind blowing on civy street. Perhaps, conveniently, too cold for you to join us? Far easier to stay in your present comfort zone and draw a pension? Or, as airline managment is unlikely for you despite your jest, CASA has a bit of a boys club for your ilk.
Bringing the ANZAC's into the argument inappropriate, and in the context of the debate, came accross like hiding behind a skirt. Do you really compare flying a Caribou for the United Nations to the exploits of service pilots during WW2, Korea or Vietnam?
Vocal pilot groups fighting to protect their conditions of service is good for the industry. They tend to also stand up to profit saving pressures on issues such as maintenance, airspace and training standards. But you wouldn't know PAF.
As you have alluded to, there is a cold wind blowing on civy street. Perhaps, conveniently, too cold for you to join us? Far easier to stay in your present comfort zone and draw a pension? Or, as airline managment is unlikely for you despite your jest, CASA has a bit of a boys club for your ilk.
Bringing the ANZAC's into the argument inappropriate, and in the context of the debate, came accross like hiding behind a skirt. Do you really compare flying a Caribou for the United Nations to the exploits of service pilots during WW2, Korea or Vietnam?
Vocal pilot groups fighting to protect their conditions of service is good for the industry. They tend to also stand up to profit saving pressures on issues such as maintenance, airspace and training standards. But you wouldn't know PAF.
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Far easier to stay in your present comfort zone
I didn't bring the ANZAC's into it. They are dead and buried.. I made mention of ANZAC day. At no stage did I say "Flying a caribou for the UN" is the same as WWII flying! I'm curious where you draw that conclusion from?? I said it before, it's up to people like you to decide if the ADF does anything positive for Australia. I guess you think the modern ADF has done nothing positive. Oh well, really doesn't bother me.
As for your "knowing" comment - no I'll never know. I'll never join a "Vocal Pilot Group". I'll be assessing pay and conditions myself and making a decision based on my situation, not yours.
Last edited by Pass-A-Frozo; 18th Dec 2005 at 08:02.
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Race to the bottom part II
Everyone's going on about how jet* drivers are undercutting by accepting less money then others to steer the same size plane.
What are they being paid to fly the 717/A320?.
What is jet* offering them to fly the A330/787 in the future?.
What are they being paid to fly the 717/A320?.
What is jet* offering them to fly the A330/787 in the future?.
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I'll be assessing pay and conditions myself and making a decision based on my situation, not yours.
A naieve comment such as that one only further reinforces how cocooned your life as a public servant is, in the real world.
I think you'll find quite a significant number of pilots stay in the RAAF because they love it - instead of joining the flow to QANTAS or Cathay, etc?
Who wouldn't "love" flying only 300 hours, single pilot (in command) per year, and know that your job was "government guaranteed", without the responsibility of flight planning, fuel uplift, nor professional responsibility!
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People making there own decisions for themselves . You even posted there - for once nothing about "Let's strike f*$k management.
Like I've said, Defence recruiting is open Monday. If you think it's the easy life. It's all about personal choice!
What company does that occur in?!
<300 hours = Wrong!
Single Pilot = Wrong!
Government Guaranteed = actually, guaranteed by the "Conditions and pay" we accepted . In fact we can't even take industrial action! (If only other companies had that protection!)
Without responsibility for:-
Flight Planning - Wrong! We do our own
Fuel Uplift - Wrong! We do our own
Professional Responsibility - Wrong! We are not only covered by civil offences but the Defence Force discipline act.
Anyway, I thought the topic was airline pay and condictions!
Read the above thread you posted in, I think that is a good discussion on people "quitting" or not accepting pay and conditions if they PERSONALLY don't like it. That is the way it works. That is what I'm saying all along. I'm really not sure how you attacking my pay and condition proves any point other than you'd like my job??
Like I've said, Defence recruiting is open Monday. If you think it's the easy life. It's all about personal choice!
Who wouldn't "love" flying only 300 hours, single pilot (in command) per year, and know that your job was "government guaranteed", without the responsibility of flight planning, fuel uplift, nor professional responsibility
<300 hours = Wrong!
Single Pilot = Wrong!
Government Guaranteed = actually, guaranteed by the "Conditions and pay" we accepted . In fact we can't even take industrial action! (If only other companies had that protection!)
Without responsibility for:-
Flight Planning - Wrong! We do our own
Fuel Uplift - Wrong! We do our own
Professional Responsibility - Wrong! We are not only covered by civil offences but the Defence Force discipline act.
Anyway, I thought the topic was airline pay and condictions!
Read the above thread you posted in, I think that is a good discussion on people "quitting" or not accepting pay and conditions if they PERSONALLY don't like it. That is the way it works. That is what I'm saying all along. I'm really not sure how you attacking my pay and condition proves any point other than you'd like my job??
Last edited by Pass-A-Frozo; 18th Dec 2005 at 13:37.
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P-A-F, you obviously enjoy being controlled - it saves having to make decisions yourself!
"Anyway, I thought the topic was airline pay and condictions (sic!"
Yes, it is.
When/if you're qualified as a Seconf Officer with Qantas, come back and talk to us from an enlightened point of view.
In the meantime, get your head down, and your tail up, to pass those EXTRA subjects you'll need to sit in the jumpseat of an airliner!
"Anyway, I thought the topic was airline pay and condictions (sic!"
Yes, it is.
When/if you're qualified as a Seconf Officer with Qantas, come back and talk to us from an enlightened point of view.
In the meantime, get your head down, and your tail up, to pass those EXTRA subjects you'll need to sit in the jumpseat of an airliner!
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In the meantime, get your head down, and your tail up, to pass those EXTRA subjects you'll need to sit in the jumpseat of an airliner!
Mind you, I think the government would pay for the majority of these "courses".
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Might use my academic quals to go for an Airline management job.
Public servant....nil experience in commercial aviation ops.....self-centred......still trying to prove yourself.
You sound as though you'd be the PERRRRRFECT candidate for an airline CEO, Geoff......sorry...P-A-F.
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So you have my university transcript there?? I'm not trying to prove anything! I'm not the one trying to whine to the world I'm worth more than I'm paid.
Anyway, this is just getting silly [ although I think you are enjoying the discussion as much as me!] . I don't control your salary. You don't control mine. The fact remains the economy will decide both our salary whether you abuse me or not!
P.s. Geoff Dixon should be PM
anyway, feel free to jump on PPRuNe chat to say G'day!
Anyway, this is just getting silly [ although I think you are enjoying the discussion as much as me!] . I don't control your salary. You don't control mine. The fact remains the economy will decide both our salary whether you abuse me or not!
P.s. Geoff Dixon should be PM
anyway, feel free to jump on PPRuNe chat to say G'day!
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Geoff Dixon should be PM
They (the airlines) haven't forgotten the hiding they were given then, and are still trying to re-establish their "authority" now, by using basal, heavy-handed, overbearing tactics, on an above average intelligent workforce.
Dixon has NO academic qualifications.
The pilots currently have NO unity, and therefore no counter "clout", nor do they have the individual negotiating skills to stop their conditions being further eroded.
Sprucegoose
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HI'er,
I tend to try and stay out of threads which debate that famous year when I was but a fresh faced CPL, but you have stirred some interest with these gems....
Just who did he show? You really have to be kidding, he gave them exactly what they wanted, a reduced workforce size for deregulation.
Whilst the airlines may have suffered from lost earnings in the short term, the people who paid the most, were the ones whose livelihoods were lost or careers ended prematurely, these people suffered far more IMHO.
When I stop laughing, I may get back to this one!! 
From where I am sitting there were no winners from the dispute (apart from some who may have made a short term gain), there were however many losers and we continue to see repercussions 15+ years on.
Based on your post's you seem to have a very one sided view of things, but then again maybe my "real world" is just a little different to yours.
The only time we will make any progress is when we choose to forget the past (but not the lessons learned) and look forward to a unified future.......
HH. :ok
I tend to try and stay out of threads which debate that famous year when I was but a fresh faced CPL, but you have stirred some interest with these gems....
Brian McCarthy - an airline pilot, and an ex-ADF officer - proved the worth(lessness) of current airline CEO's
They (the airlines) haven't forgotten the hiding they were given then
on an above average intelligent workforce
From where I am sitting there were no winners from the dispute (apart from some who may have made a short term gain), there were however many losers and we continue to see repercussions 15+ years on.
Based on your post's you seem to have a very one sided view of things, but then again maybe my "real world" is just a little different to yours.
The only time we will make any progress is when we choose to forget the past (but not the lessons learned) and look forward to a unified future.......
HH. :ok
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Whilst the airlines may have suffered from lost earnings in the short term.....
Let's see now, you could start with IPEC - hang on a minute, they're not around.
Well, try East-West then.
Who?
Okay, in that case get on to the 2 majors - Australian (TAA), or Ansett - they had deep pockets.
There was thread running here a while back titled "Where are they now?" - maybe you could see if the 4 missing airlines involved have been found.
I tend to try and stay out of threads which debate that famous year when I was but a fresh faced CPL,
on an above average intelligent workforce
btw, are you one of "today's" pilot workforce, HH?
One of those doing so much better than the pilots of "that" year?
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Never have I read so much bitching, sniping and back stabbing at ones peers as on this thread.
How you ever expect to obtain this fabled unity you have all been talking about, with the attitudes displayed here. Those sitting in the Ivory Towers must be laughing themselves all the way to the bank.
There have been constant references to the Jetstar pilot group that have/will undercut what is considered to be acceptable. So what is the figure they have accepted? What are the numbers that they rejected for the 787? Does anybody actually know correctly? If so, put on the table, lets make some comparisons, lets see if the Jetstar boys and girls really are the industry pariahs that they have been portrayed to be here.
Ever seen a pack of mongrel dogs that suddenly turn on one individual that is week or sick. Not a pretty sight. Why do I have that image in my mind after reading through this thread?
How you ever expect to obtain this fabled unity you have all been talking about, with the attitudes displayed here. Those sitting in the Ivory Towers must be laughing themselves all the way to the bank.
There have been constant references to the Jetstar pilot group that have/will undercut what is considered to be acceptable. So what is the figure they have accepted? What are the numbers that they rejected for the 787? Does anybody actually know correctly? If so, put on the table, lets make some comparisons, lets see if the Jetstar boys and girls really are the industry pariahs that they have been portrayed to be here.
Ever seen a pack of mongrel dogs that suddenly turn on one individual that is week or sick. Not a pretty sight. Why do I have that image in my mind after reading through this thread?
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on an above average intelligent workforce
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=202759
Sprucegoose
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HI'er
It is interesting that you choose not to address the more difficult points that I have raised, rather question my education and qualifications.
NB: In order to have a reasoned debate you first need to acknowledge that there is a contrary point of view.
"This is not an argument, it's just contradiction" Monty Python.
Cheers, HH.
It is interesting that you choose not to address the more difficult points that I have raised, rather question my education and qualifications.
NB: In order to have a reasoned debate you first need to acknowledge that there is a contrary point of view.
"This is not an argument, it's just contradiction" Monty Python.
Cheers, HH.