RFDS pilots commence industrial action
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Medwun
I realize that you are being offered more than GA rate. What I was suggesting is that it was somewhat wrong that they use a single engine base G.A. award salary, to indicate you are well paid.
If they wish to be correct in the use of the award they need to at least add on the relevant additional allowances, ie turbine and CIR. Allthough, I don't really believe that the award has come to grips with a proper classification for an single engine aircraft such as the PC12.
To use the GA award at all as a yardstick is pretty pathetic anyway. Somehow I don't thank that there would be guys on that award doing what you do.
I realize that you are being offered more than GA rate. What I was suggesting is that it was somewhat wrong that they use a single engine base G.A. award salary, to indicate you are well paid.
If they wish to be correct in the use of the award they need to at least add on the relevant additional allowances, ie turbine and CIR. Allthough, I don't really believe that the award has come to grips with a proper classification for an single engine aircraft such as the PC12.
To use the GA award at all as a yardstick is pretty pathetic anyway. Somehow I don't thank that there would be guys on that award doing what you do.
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There IS a safety issue here, and a serious problem in the way the worth of these pilots is measured. They are being classified the same as the newly qualified GA pilots who are in their first year.
This is a serious mis representation of the facts. The RFDS pilots in central section are highly respected, experienced people, who have achieved an enviable safety record over a period of decades. They have much more experience(a decade or two) than the average GA pilot, and are mature, reliable, capable professionals. The runs are on the board.
GA is flooded with inexperienced pilots who only intend to stay for a short time and are not really interested in the organistion they work for or the future of the industry. Most see it as some horrible thing they have to do in order to get a job with an airline. Many use derogeratory terms for anything to do with GA and are not really suitable for much of the work, because of their attitude. Many are prepared to work for half the award rates, for a short time, and many do.
There is a world of difference between the two groups.
There is a serious flaw in the award, if it allows these two groups to be assessed as the same.
This is a serious mis representation of the facts. The RFDS pilots in central section are highly respected, experienced people, who have achieved an enviable safety record over a period of decades. They have much more experience(a decade or two) than the average GA pilot, and are mature, reliable, capable professionals. The runs are on the board.
GA is flooded with inexperienced pilots who only intend to stay for a short time and are not really interested in the organistion they work for or the future of the industry. Most see it as some horrible thing they have to do in order to get a job with an airline. Many use derogeratory terms for anything to do with GA and are not really suitable for much of the work, because of their attitude. Many are prepared to work for half the award rates, for a short time, and many do.
There is a world of difference between the two groups.
There is a serious flaw in the award, if it allows these two groups to be assessed as the same.
Last edited by bushy; 10th Nov 2005 at 12:22.
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Spot on Bushy.
Posture to shame. Pastoral equalling SPIFR as a base line?
Re: the example I gave on the previous page I was very careful to compare it to two other jobs viewed as having a strong vocational element yet demanding highly specialised qualifications rather than a general tertiary education. This offers an important tack for the pilots to considering using.
Regards
Rob
Posture to shame. Pastoral equalling SPIFR as a base line?
Re: the example I gave on the previous page I was very careful to compare it to two other jobs viewed as having a strong vocational element yet demanding highly specialised qualifications rather than a general tertiary education. This offers an important tack for the pilots to considering using.
Regards
Rob
Bushy:
Yes, the industry is flooded with inexperienced pilots but you are quite wrong to accuse them of being disinterested. Young pilots do not spend thousands of dollars on a CPL, type ratings and an instrument rating just to be disinterested.
Unfortunately the flying schools do not warn them that some parts of GA can be full of sharks. It is all too easy for disillusionment to set in when a new CPL gets his first job only to to find he will be replaced if he writes up snags in the maintenance release; and that unless he takes off overweight occasionally, his job will disappear; and that duty hours are for guidance only and not applicable in the real charter world; that the award rate is only for Qantas pilots.
Is it any wonder after a few months that some will speak out in derogatory terms of their personal experiences in GA? And if, as you say, some are not suitable for much of the work because of their attitude - then is that because they jack up on flying poorly maintained aircraft and do not want to risk their lives and the lives of their passengers?
As one who has flown extensively in the RAAF, in CASA, in GA, and in airlines, let me say that for every good GA operator there are another ten that are very suss.
Just ask any airline pilot if he would be happy to return to GA as a matter of choice if he lost his airline job. Few would be perfectly happy to do so. Why? Because they know it would be back to a life of cutting corners, shonky operators, and of course lousy pay for hard work done. It is an unfortunate fact of life that much of GA in Australia stinks.
GA is flooded with inexperienced pilots who only intend to stay for a short time and are not really interested in the organistion they work for or the future of the industry. Most see it as some horrible thing they have to do in order to get a job with an airline. Many use derogeratory terms for anything to do with GA and are not really suitable for much of the work, because of their attitude. Many are prepared to work for half the award rates, for a short time, and many do.
Unfortunately the flying schools do not warn them that some parts of GA can be full of sharks. It is all too easy for disillusionment to set in when a new CPL gets his first job only to to find he will be replaced if he writes up snags in the maintenance release; and that unless he takes off overweight occasionally, his job will disappear; and that duty hours are for guidance only and not applicable in the real charter world; that the award rate is only for Qantas pilots.
Is it any wonder after a few months that some will speak out in derogatory terms of their personal experiences in GA? And if, as you say, some are not suitable for much of the work because of their attitude - then is that because they jack up on flying poorly maintained aircraft and do not want to risk their lives and the lives of their passengers?
As one who has flown extensively in the RAAF, in CASA, in GA, and in airlines, let me say that for every good GA operator there are another ten that are very suss.
Just ask any airline pilot if he would be happy to return to GA as a matter of choice if he lost his airline job. Few would be perfectly happy to do so. Why? Because they know it would be back to a life of cutting corners, shonky operators, and of course lousy pay for hard work done. It is an unfortunate fact of life that much of GA in Australia stinks.
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Yes, much of it does stink, and you will probably never understand why.
If you " were forced to carry overloads" then you can blame yourself, not the operator.
This thread is about RFDS pay, and I still say the average newby, cannot be classified the same as the Central section section RFDS pilots.
If you " were forced to carry overloads" then you can blame yourself, not the operator.
This thread is about RFDS pay, and I still say the average newby, cannot be classified the same as the Central section section RFDS pilots.
Bushy,
With all due respect, I have been reading your posts about young GA pilots this and young GA pilots that for far too long.
Personally, I am one of those young GA pilots and in the companies I work for and have worked for I have always given my absolute best. In fact all of my mates in the industry give it their absolute all. We love the flying, the people we meet and are generally treated well by our respective employers. So to go on and on and on and on about the pilots out there is very unfair as I find most of us are out there to make a name for ourselves as good operators and employees.
And yes, we're in it to move up and into bigger and better equipment but that doesn't mean we'll thumb our noses at GA.
Sorry to hijack the thread, back to the real issue, totally agree with one of bushy's statements which is:
RFDS pilots should get paid more than airline pilots
Good luck with it guys
(Edited for spelling error)
With all due respect, I have been reading your posts about young GA pilots this and young GA pilots that for far too long.
Personally, I am one of those young GA pilots and in the companies I work for and have worked for I have always given my absolute best. In fact all of my mates in the industry give it their absolute all. We love the flying, the people we meet and are generally treated well by our respective employers. So to go on and on and on and on about the pilots out there is very unfair as I find most of us are out there to make a name for ourselves as good operators and employees.
And yes, we're in it to move up and into bigger and better equipment but that doesn't mean we'll thumb our noses at GA.
Sorry to hijack the thread, back to the real issue, totally agree with one of bushy's statements which is:
RFDS pilots should get paid more than airline pilots
Good luck with it guys
(Edited for spelling error)
Last edited by turbantime; 13th Nov 2005 at 10:24.
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It is miniscule in terms of jobs in the UK. Effectively non existent in the overall scheme of things other than instructing. PPL level flying completely blots out paid GA despite a user pays regime! A map of the country showing road, rail and airline routes shows why. Ignore the sticky out bits at the top and to the west of the UK. 55million people just in the main chunk. The entire centre spine of the country from top to bottom is a vast airway 50 miles across in places.
A few air taxi gigs, a smattering of aeromed, a niche industriette for the horse racing world, offshore patrol(fisheries and pollution). Everything else is turbine/jet, predominantly airline and executive and where the vast majority of the newly qualified go. That's the reason for the notorious UK (now JAA) exams - there is no GA layer acting as an effective filtering medium. Starter jobs are genuinely Boeings and Airbus for a very high proportion with modern glass turboprops and bizjets taking up the slack.
Jet Airline ops are out of all proportion to the population size but not just because the UK is a world business centre and one of the top five world economies. Our climate sees to that
A vast discretionary travel market has sucked in a very high number of Aussies, Kiwis, South Africans and pilots from all over Western Europe in recent years.
As to Canada - exactly the same situation as OZ. Similar population concentrated in tiny areas of a huge country. GA catering to the diaspora and a huge oversupply of pilots created to keep aviation schools and instructors ticking over. An endless cycle of undercapitalised, oversupply of aviation services ultimately dependent on subsidy in the great scheme of things.
Regards
Rob
A few air taxi gigs, a smattering of aeromed, a niche industriette for the horse racing world, offshore patrol(fisheries and pollution). Everything else is turbine/jet, predominantly airline and executive and where the vast majority of the newly qualified go. That's the reason for the notorious UK (now JAA) exams - there is no GA layer acting as an effective filtering medium. Starter jobs are genuinely Boeings and Airbus for a very high proportion with modern glass turboprops and bizjets taking up the slack.
Jet Airline ops are out of all proportion to the population size but not just because the UK is a world business centre and one of the top five world economies. Our climate sees to that
A vast discretionary travel market has sucked in a very high number of Aussies, Kiwis, South Africans and pilots from all over Western Europe in recent years.As to Canada - exactly the same situation as OZ. Similar population concentrated in tiny areas of a huge country. GA catering to the diaspora and a huge oversupply of pilots created to keep aviation schools and instructors ticking over. An endless cycle of undercapitalised, oversupply of aviation services ultimately dependent on subsidy in the great scheme of things.
Regards
Rob
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Medwun & Co, what is the latest update? I am keen to know.
How you guys go will determine how the other sections go also. I think that the Queensland section is up for an EBA soon, maybe late next year (not sure). What about WA section? Although all of the sections are on different EBA's it is imperative that you all stick together.
It would be worth all Section's EBA reps getting together to get some solidarity NATION WIDE. After all, it is similar work no matter where you are (similar, not the same) and therefore it should be paid (relatively) equally.
As far as threats from the company etc, document it all, and make sure you know where you are legally. Legal representation is cheap in the overall scheme of things. It is not adequate for a Chief Pilot or Aviation Manager (or whatever they call themselves these days) to put his personal 'just trust me' on the fine print. Some Chief Pilots are beyond reproach, but I can think of one who does not fit this description.
The PC12 thing; take a leaf out of QLD section's book (my source tells me this is so) and make the PC12 the same as the B200 for the EBA. It is essentially the same to fly; if anything it is more difficult due to the SE considerations.
I would think that you can achieve much with your EBA if you keep the guys together. That is hard, but best of luck. Keep the information flowing to all pilots to keep solidarity; your EBA is being closely watched by the other sections with great interest.
How you guys go will determine how the other sections go also. I think that the Queensland section is up for an EBA soon, maybe late next year (not sure). What about WA section? Although all of the sections are on different EBA's it is imperative that you all stick together.
It would be worth all Section's EBA reps getting together to get some solidarity NATION WIDE. After all, it is similar work no matter where you are (similar, not the same) and therefore it should be paid (relatively) equally.
As far as threats from the company etc, document it all, and make sure you know where you are legally. Legal representation is cheap in the overall scheme of things. It is not adequate for a Chief Pilot or Aviation Manager (or whatever they call themselves these days) to put his personal 'just trust me' on the fine print. Some Chief Pilots are beyond reproach, but I can think of one who does not fit this description.
The PC12 thing; take a leaf out of QLD section's book (my source tells me this is so) and make the PC12 the same as the B200 for the EBA. It is essentially the same to fly; if anything it is more difficult due to the SE considerations.
I would think that you can achieve much with your EBA if you keep the guys together. That is hard, but best of luck. Keep the information flowing to all pilots to keep solidarity; your EBA is being closely watched by the other sections with great interest.
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Update
There was another conciliatory meeting held on Tuesday.
During this meeting there was no further progress on our issues. The main issues being payment for penalty rates and overtime and by including a 'rolled in rate' calculator into our EBA.
Management decided to use the old trick by saying that the Union was not reflecting the views of the majority of the pilot group. They then put forward the idea of conducting a secret ballot to the pilots with both the pilots' claims and managements' offer in order to determine the feeling among the group. The union officials then sought and gained assurance from management that they would then negotiate on whatever way the ballot went.
The pilots held a meeting the following day and voted to allow the ballot process. The process and result of the ballot should be known by the end of next week or begining of the following week.
The votes will be counted by an external agency.
Back of the clock... if you could send me a PM I could put you in contact with our senior rep and/or our union. We are in contact with the S/E section and they are aware of our negotiations and its progress.
There was another conciliatory meeting held on Tuesday.
During this meeting there was no further progress on our issues. The main issues being payment for penalty rates and overtime and by including a 'rolled in rate' calculator into our EBA.
Management decided to use the old trick by saying that the Union was not reflecting the views of the majority of the pilot group. They then put forward the idea of conducting a secret ballot to the pilots with both the pilots' claims and managements' offer in order to determine the feeling among the group. The union officials then sought and gained assurance from management that they would then negotiate on whatever way the ballot went.
The pilots held a meeting the following day and voted to allow the ballot process. The process and result of the ballot should be known by the end of next week or begining of the following week.
The votes will be counted by an external agency.
Back of the clock... if you could send me a PM I could put you in contact with our senior rep and/or our union. We are in contact with the S/E section and they are aware of our negotiations and its progress.
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Arctaurus
There are 23 pilots within the Central Ops that are involved in this dispute. Don't know the exact number of pilots throughout all sections but I think it's about 120.
Progressive update:
It seems that the voting papers didn't get out in the mail as quick as we would have liked! The union and reps compiled our position and promptly got it to the external agency conducting the ballot, however; it appears management didn't seem to be in as much of a hurry, hence we still don't have our voting slips.
A certain manager also wanted to talk to the pilots in Alice Springs and Port Augusta individually regarding the industrial matters and arranged for the senior base pilots to set up interview times for him... until the union got wind of it. The meetings will now be conducted as a group and an industrial officer from the union will be present for at least the Alice Springs meeting, we are still working on arrangements for the Port Augusta meeting. There has been no approach toward the Adelaide pilots for any such friendly chats by management.
There are 23 pilots within the Central Ops that are involved in this dispute. Don't know the exact number of pilots throughout all sections but I think it's about 120.
Progressive update:
It seems that the voting papers didn't get out in the mail as quick as we would have liked! The union and reps compiled our position and promptly got it to the external agency conducting the ballot, however; it appears management didn't seem to be in as much of a hurry, hence we still don't have our voting slips.
A certain manager also wanted to talk to the pilots in Alice Springs and Port Augusta individually regarding the industrial matters and arranged for the senior base pilots to set up interview times for him... until the union got wind of it. The meetings will now be conducted as a group and an industrial officer from the union will be present for at least the Alice Springs meeting, we are still working on arrangements for the Port Augusta meeting. There has been no approach toward the Adelaide pilots for any such friendly chats by management.
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Alice Springs should be a separate, autonomous operation, with it's own chief pilot, and administration. City based remote management from 1500km away, does not work as well as it should. We do have accountants, administrators,and skilled pilots in Alice Springs.
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DD
Well, maybe the pilots should start to insist on a national award - for years RFDS guys have been under paid considering the nature of the work they undertake.
The existing "status quo" clearly suits the management of each of the RFDS sections. What better way to divide and conquer?
Well, maybe the pilots should start to insist on a national award - for years RFDS guys have been under paid considering the nature of the work they undertake.
The existing "status quo" clearly suits the management of each of the RFDS sections. What better way to divide and conquer?
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Stay strong RFDS ladies and gentlemen. You are worth your weight in gold. I heard a RFDS guy picking his way through thunderies south of Gunnedah last week. He was med 1 and doing his best despite the filthy conditions at lower levels. Single pilot, Med 1, at night and in the murk. It doesnt get much harder than that. Personaly, Id reckon you are worth at least twice what im paid.
You do have the undying respect of us airline cruisers.
best of luck.
DM
You do have the undying respect of us airline cruisers.
best of luck.
DM