RFDS pilots commence industrial action
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Stick with it!
You are to be commended for lifting the ban. IMHO this demonstrates your willingness to negotiate and meet management halfway.
The "antagonistic member of managements' negotiating team" wouldn't be B.D., would it?
You are to be commended for lifting the ban. IMHO this demonstrates your willingness to negotiate and meet management halfway.
The "antagonistic member of managements' negotiating team" wouldn't be B.D., would it?
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medwun
Glad to hear things look like they may be working for you guys. I agree with the poster, willingness to negotiate shows you guys are mature, serious about what you do and not taking action lightly.
True flight nurses need to be very qualified, but so do pilots. It takes just as many years to gain the skills/experience for a pilot as it would for a nurse. I don't think people are trying to bring nurses down, they do a great job, it's more like trying to bring the pilots up to that level - just because they don't work on the patient doesn't mean they're not essential - for where would the nurses be without the pilots to get them to the patients?
Good luck guys I hope you get a break, keep up the great job and I'll be sending a donation myself shortly...
True flight nurses need to be very qualified, but so do pilots. It takes just as many years to gain the skills/experience for a pilot as it would for a nurse. I don't think people are trying to bring nurses down, they do a great job, it's more like trying to bring the pilots up to that level - just because they don't work on the patient doesn't mean they're not essential - for where would the nurses be without the pilots to get them to the patients?
Good luck guys I hope you get a break, keep up the great job and I'll be sending a donation myself shortly...
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Sand Dune
The manager is B.H.
He hasn't been in the job long. Has no previous experience in aeromed ops, no time on PC12, no exposure to shiftwork and from all accounts no experience with industrial relations. But of course he was the best person for the job!
The manager is B.H.
He hasn't been in the job long. Has no previous experience in aeromed ops, no time on PC12, no exposure to shiftwork and from all accounts no experience with industrial relations. But of course he was the best person for the job!
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OH Boy!...you guys have really lost the plot.
Zhaadum, Willie and Sand dune, you are complete turkeys, obviously with ulterior motives and equally obviously, no knowledge of aviation matters!
And Medwon, if you're the spokesman for your group you should be hanged, drawn and quartered!!
You guys fly a sophisticated turbo prop, probably single pilot IFR, correct me if I'm wrong, in sometimes atrocious conditions, and you do it for peanuts. And, idiots like Shaadum, Willie and Dune are convincing you that you're not worth the value of a nurse!!!
A BLOODY NURSE, for crying out loud!!! Gimme a break!
I can get 85k for part time sim work on a Lear jet. A Lear jet, a bloody light aircraft! And I can get a lot more for sim work o/seas.
You guys are in the wrong business.
Go and get yourselves jobs as male nurses!
If you guys are going to compare yourself with a bloody nurse then you are even more stupid than I thought.
Zhaadum, Willie and Sand dune, you are complete turkeys, obviously with ulterior motives and equally obviously, no knowledge of aviation matters!
And Medwon, if you're the spokesman for your group you should be hanged, drawn and quartered!!
You guys fly a sophisticated turbo prop, probably single pilot IFR, correct me if I'm wrong, in sometimes atrocious conditions, and you do it for peanuts. And, idiots like Shaadum, Willie and Dune are convincing you that you're not worth the value of a nurse!!!
A BLOODY NURSE, for crying out loud!!! Gimme a break!
I can get 85k for part time sim work on a Lear jet. A Lear jet, a bloody light aircraft! And I can get a lot more for sim work o/seas.
You guys are in the wrong business.
Go and get yourselves jobs as male nurses!
If you guys are going to compare yourself with a bloody nurse then you are even more stupid than I thought.
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amos2
have you ever worked as part of an airmed team?
Those who have will know the full situation. Nurses and pilots work as a team, each have their own skills and jobs. Both cannot achieve without the other. Having said this though, you cannot compare apples with oranges.
Airmed pilots do deserve higher pay, compare the pay structure and job difficulty with other pilot positions.
have you ever worked as part of an airmed team?
Those who have will know the full situation. Nurses and pilots work as a team, each have their own skills and jobs. Both cannot achieve without the other. Having said this though, you cannot compare apples with oranges.
Airmed pilots do deserve higher pay, compare the pay structure and job difficulty with other pilot positions.
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Eeerm I think what our old friend amos2 is trying to say in his own inimitable style 
is, that you get what you ask for.
I call it posture.
Just be careful that you don't let the RFDS management get the priorities upside down.
It doesn't exist for the management to play ducks and drakes with administrative trivia.
It doesn't exist to make life easy for the accountants and clerks.
It exists to transport medical cases, sick in, hopefully well out, using aircraft as super sophisticated ambos, servicing people who would otherwise be denied medical intervention that city folks take for granted.
That takes dedicated pilots, engineers, nurses and doctors, EVERYTHING else in the organisation is in support of that. There is NOTHING nor NO TASK that is more important.
Dig your heels in and remind them that the RFDS role, built on the sweat of innumerable volunteers and topped off by taxpayers money, is to figuratively "drain the swamp".
Your description of the recruitment "process" and "result" for the 'aviation manager' is distressingly familiar.
On the evidence presented here, there is a serious disconnect somewhere.
is, that you get what you ask for.I call it posture.
Just be careful that you don't let the RFDS management get the priorities upside down.
It doesn't exist for the management to play ducks and drakes with administrative trivia.
It doesn't exist to make life easy for the accountants and clerks.
It exists to transport medical cases, sick in, hopefully well out, using aircraft as super sophisticated ambos, servicing people who would otherwise be denied medical intervention that city folks take for granted.
That takes dedicated pilots, engineers, nurses and doctors, EVERYTHING else in the organisation is in support of that. There is NOTHING nor NO TASK that is more important.
Dig your heels in and remind them that the RFDS role, built on the sweat of innumerable volunteers and topped off by taxpayers money, is to figuratively "drain the swamp".
Your description of the recruitment "process" and "result" for the 'aviation manager' is distressingly familiar.
On the evidence presented here, there is a serious disconnect somewhere.
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Hey Medwun,
I think Western Operations recruitment managers underwent the same lobotomy.
The Aviation and Communications Manager has never worked as a Pilot and wouldnt know how to turn a radio on without a book of instructions.
The Flight Nurse Manager has never been a flight nurse and would get lost in the arse end of an aircraft, although its highly unlikely that she will ever have the oportunity.
The Engineering manager knows f@#k-all about engineering, probably due to the fact that he's not an Engineer!
I'm surprised that they have'nt hired a plumber as the Medical Director (no offence to any plumbers out there; they get paid the equivalent anyway).
Hans.
I think Western Operations recruitment managers underwent the same lobotomy.
The Aviation and Communications Manager has never worked as a Pilot and wouldnt know how to turn a radio on without a book of instructions.
The Flight Nurse Manager has never been a flight nurse and would get lost in the arse end of an aircraft, although its highly unlikely that she will ever have the oportunity.
The Engineering manager knows f@#k-all about engineering, probably due to the fact that he's not an Engineer!
I'm surprised that they have'nt hired a plumber as the Medical Director (no offence to any plumbers out there; they get paid the equivalent anyway).
Hans.
Last edited by Hans Solo; 5th Nov 2005 at 03:10.
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An RFDS pilot should be paid at least 150k! The general public would be staggered to hear the mere pittance they apparently get! And, the general public would be well on side. You could make hay with the PR on this one!
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This is probably the most important thread on here at the moment.
I have some knowledge of RFDS central section operations, as I flew their aircraft for ten years or more, although that was some time ago. I do not claim to speak for todays pilots.
Pilots are reluctant to have much to say for themselves, as the same organisation that pays their wages also does their rating renewals.
My memories of RFDS flying are mainly happy ones, operating good equipment, part of a good, experienced team, doing useful work, and the pay was better than average.(award plus 15% and a car). No-one said it was easy. I opened up a few night strips, landing by the light of burning toilet rolls.(we sometimes solved one problem and created another!!.)
However most of the time we should have had one more pilot to help cover the duty and standby times required. Back to back 12 hour shifts were rostered, on the assumption that you would not be called on both of them. Often you were, and shift changes happened at short notice. Sometimes you were stuck with the whole weekend, as no-one else was available at short notice. At other times you would be rostered for a day shift 0600-1800. You went to the airport at 0600 to get weather and notams for all the places you may have to go to.(any of them), checked the aeroplane/s you may have to use,and then went home and waited to be called. Often you would get a call at 1700 to go to Adelaide, and you would get home again at about 3 am, if you did not get diverted on the way home.( I once got diverted to a community in Western Australia.)
I envied the NSW airmedical pilots who were rostered for three eight hour shifts for the day.
The flying was good, but management was in Adelaide , and for a while we had a chief pilot who would not fly Navajo's, and he never did an evecuation flight out of Alice Springs. We were not impressed. I have always said that Alice Springs should be autonomous and have it's own chief pilot. But the money was controlled from Adelaide (After all what would hicks from the sticks know about accounting?)
Todays pilots probably have similar "uncomfortable" situations, mainly due to remote management, and insufficient pilots. (yes cost cutting- they do bid for contracts and have to compete with "not for profit" organisations that have cheap pilots and/or government subsidies.)
These people should get paid at least as much as an airline pilot, and have the Fatigue, and other problems fixed.
This is the most important flying in Australia that makes the outback habiitable. We cannot expect people to live and work in the outback without a service of this kind.
But more than that. THESE ARE GA PILOTS,WITH GA AEROPLANES DOING AUSTRALIA'S MOST IMPORTANT FLYING.
This organisation flew aeroplanes ranging from Cherokee sixes (yes chreokee sixes, and 260 hp ones at that) to king airs and now specially fitted PC12's . While the accident rate in GA was too high, the RFDS just kept on flying safely for decades, with the same equipment, doing more demanding work, with few facilities. Tthey flew a fleet of aeroplanes safely for a long long time, but did have one accident with a sophisticated turbine powered aircraft operating out of a Capital city.
They proved that it is possible to operate aircraft in the outback, safely and efficiently, over a period of decades. Even the "old clunkers" were operated safely, because they were operated by rpofessional, capable, experienced pilots, who made a career of it, and did it well. See previous posts to get an idea of the level of experience they have. This is as it should be. Most of GA does not have this anymore.
When I left I was 59 years young, and had 12,000 hours in my logbooks.
RFDS pilots are not beginners. They are experienced professionals who set an example for the whole industry. It is obscene that they are paid less than airline pilots, accountants, lawyers, nurses and administrators.
I have some knowledge of RFDS central section operations, as I flew their aircraft for ten years or more, although that was some time ago. I do not claim to speak for todays pilots.
Pilots are reluctant to have much to say for themselves, as the same organisation that pays their wages also does their rating renewals.
My memories of RFDS flying are mainly happy ones, operating good equipment, part of a good, experienced team, doing useful work, and the pay was better than average.(award plus 15% and a car). No-one said it was easy. I opened up a few night strips, landing by the light of burning toilet rolls.(we sometimes solved one problem and created another!!.)
However most of the time we should have had one more pilot to help cover the duty and standby times required. Back to back 12 hour shifts were rostered, on the assumption that you would not be called on both of them. Often you were, and shift changes happened at short notice. Sometimes you were stuck with the whole weekend, as no-one else was available at short notice. At other times you would be rostered for a day shift 0600-1800. You went to the airport at 0600 to get weather and notams for all the places you may have to go to.(any of them), checked the aeroplane/s you may have to use,and then went home and waited to be called. Often you would get a call at 1700 to go to Adelaide, and you would get home again at about 3 am, if you did not get diverted on the way home.( I once got diverted to a community in Western Australia.)
I envied the NSW airmedical pilots who were rostered for three eight hour shifts for the day.
The flying was good, but management was in Adelaide , and for a while we had a chief pilot who would not fly Navajo's, and he never did an evecuation flight out of Alice Springs. We were not impressed. I have always said that Alice Springs should be autonomous and have it's own chief pilot. But the money was controlled from Adelaide (After all what would hicks from the sticks know about accounting?)
Todays pilots probably have similar "uncomfortable" situations, mainly due to remote management, and insufficient pilots. (yes cost cutting- they do bid for contracts and have to compete with "not for profit" organisations that have cheap pilots and/or government subsidies.)
These people should get paid at least as much as an airline pilot, and have the Fatigue, and other problems fixed.
This is the most important flying in Australia that makes the outback habiitable. We cannot expect people to live and work in the outback without a service of this kind.
But more than that. THESE ARE GA PILOTS,WITH GA AEROPLANES DOING AUSTRALIA'S MOST IMPORTANT FLYING.
This organisation flew aeroplanes ranging from Cherokee sixes (yes chreokee sixes, and 260 hp ones at that) to king airs and now specially fitted PC12's . While the accident rate in GA was too high, the RFDS just kept on flying safely for decades, with the same equipment, doing more demanding work, with few facilities. Tthey flew a fleet of aeroplanes safely for a long long time, but did have one accident with a sophisticated turbine powered aircraft operating out of a Capital city.
They proved that it is possible to operate aircraft in the outback, safely and efficiently, over a period of decades. Even the "old clunkers" were operated safely, because they were operated by rpofessional, capable, experienced pilots, who made a career of it, and did it well. See previous posts to get an idea of the level of experience they have. This is as it should be. Most of GA does not have this anymore.
When I left I was 59 years young, and had 12,000 hours in my logbooks.
RFDS pilots are not beginners. They are experienced professionals who set an example for the whole industry. It is obscene that they are paid less than airline pilots, accountants, lawyers, nurses and administrators.
Last edited by Woomera; 5th Nov 2005 at 06:49.
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He hasn't been in the job long. Has no previous experience in aeromed ops, no time on PC12, no exposure to shiftwork and from all accounts no experience with industrial relations. But of course he was the best person for the job!
Ppruner's that follow the industrial issues on this forum will know where my sympathies lie. If you want to check, type the words 'federation' or 'union' or similar under the search page and select username "ITCZ" to see for yourself.
Having said that, let me follow through with a bit of unsolicited advice.
(1) If you want to win and maintain the 'high ground' in this dispute, play the ball, not the man.
(2) Do your research on your 'enemies.'
(3) With respect to this particular bloke -- take a closer look at his background before you fire those bullets in his direction. He is not the kind of person to trumpet his achievements, yet they are considerable.
If you keep such a person onside, you have a great ally. Make an enemy of him, and you have made an enemy of a very clever and capable pilot and manager that does not flinch from a fight. You will make a rod for your own back.
I wish you luck in your negotiations. Make use of your resources in the Federation. The RFDS needs to be a place where skilled and talented pilots aim to make their careers.
Focus on the issues, they stand by themselves. Leave the sledging for the pub. Good luck.
Last edited by ITCZ; 5th Nov 2005 at 04:43.
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While the RFDS pilots are leaning on their management for more money it would seem timely to also work them over to provide a two pilot operation rather than this potentially dangerous single pilot business.
Reading through the posts on Pprune there is little doubt that the RFDS pilots do a vital job under environmental conditions that suggets a second pilot in the cockpit would make it a less risky operation. In Europe, all medical flights are two pilot by law.
Sure, the aircraft are certified single pilot, but the environment described - black night, long duty hours, primitive airstrips, toilet rolls flares, - you name it the RFDS do it - and just one pilot? Shades of poor Smithy pranging at Mt Gambier in the middle of the night in bad weather. A copilot might have twigged something was wrong that night.
Go for a two pilot agreement, chaps - it might save your life and that of your passengers one dark night. Even ATSB said that a two pilot operation is a safer bet.
Reading through the posts on Pprune there is little doubt that the RFDS pilots do a vital job under environmental conditions that suggets a second pilot in the cockpit would make it a less risky operation. In Europe, all medical flights are two pilot by law.
Sure, the aircraft are certified single pilot, but the environment described - black night, long duty hours, primitive airstrips, toilet rolls flares, - you name it the RFDS do it - and just one pilot? Shades of poor Smithy pranging at Mt Gambier in the middle of the night in bad weather. A copilot might have twigged something was wrong that night.
Go for a two pilot agreement, chaps - it might save your life and that of your passengers one dark night. Even ATSB said that a two pilot operation is a safer bet.
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I think stallie's suggesting that the b200 with the medical fit out, nurse, doctor and patient or 2, plus a second pilot, won't get you very far without having to refuel.
A PC12 might have a greater fuel uplift with this type of load.
A PC12 might have a greater fuel uplift with this type of load.
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amos2,
Having “15,000 plus hours or so on heavy jets” and the ability to “get 85k for part time sim work on a Lear jet” (and, quite clearly, the ego as well!) doesn’t give you the right to call people “idiots” and “turkeys”. Relax mate!!
Perhaps you should re-read my post. I am not insinuating in any way that RFDS pilots are “not worth the value of a nurse” (“A BLOODY NURSE, for crying out loud!!!” – clearly nurses don’t rate too highly with you).
As to my “obvious ulterior motives” – I am not connected in any way, shape or form to the RFDS. I have no motive in this affair other than a desire to see the RFDS pilots get what they want (and indeed, what they deserve!).
As you said in your latter post, we ARE all onside. In our case, it’s vehement agreement I think you’ll find (fairly vehement in your case!).
BTW, after 20+ years of flying I reckon I’ll stick with it. I reckon I’d look crap in a nurses uniform.
Having “15,000 plus hours or so on heavy jets” and the ability to “get 85k for part time sim work on a Lear jet” (and, quite clearly, the ego as well!) doesn’t give you the right to call people “idiots” and “turkeys”. Relax mate!!
Perhaps you should re-read my post. I am not insinuating in any way that RFDS pilots are “not worth the value of a nurse” (“A BLOODY NURSE, for crying out loud!!!” – clearly nurses don’t rate too highly with you).
As to my “obvious ulterior motives” – I am not connected in any way, shape or form to the RFDS. I have no motive in this affair other than a desire to see the RFDS pilots get what they want (and indeed, what they deserve!).
As you said in your latter post, we ARE all onside. In our case, it’s vehement agreement I think you’ll find (fairly vehement in your case!).
BTW, after 20+ years of flying I reckon I’ll stick with it. I reckon I’d look crap in a nurses uniform.
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I am sure the sick passengers would rather stop for a refuel with two pilots rather than prang into the deck like Mt Gambier with one pilot. Hard to imagine that a second pilot weighing 80 kgs could not be used.
Surely if the use of a second pilot was mandated by law, a careful auditing of what is essential and non-essential payload currently carried, would soon be done by the operator in order to adjust the take off weights within the certification limit.
I am no expert on the types used by the RFDS, but if single pilot IFR RFDS ops is so safe in Australia, it makes you wonder for what flight safety reason EU authorities demand a two pilot operation.
Surely if the use of a second pilot was mandated by law, a careful auditing of what is essential and non-essential payload currently carried, would soon be done by the operator in order to adjust the take off weights within the certification limit.
I am no expert on the types used by the RFDS, but if single pilot IFR RFDS ops is so safe in Australia, it makes you wonder for what flight safety reason EU authorities demand a two pilot operation.
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I just love the misinformation you get on PPRuNe... not...
Wrong!
In the UK B200's are flown on aeromed with 2 flight crew and still manage decent leg distances...
In Europe, all medical flights are two pilot by law.
You won't get anywhere in a b200 with two pilot ops outside of the J curve.
A37575
This is like asking an ambulance driver after picking up a critically injured motorist from a road accident to fill up the tanks of the ambulance on the way to hospital. Not all the flights conducted by the RFDS are patient transfers, and even some of these are life threatening.
Meeb
Don’t know about Europe or the fit out of medivac B200’s there but I can tell you that the fit out of the RFDS B200’s is very comprehensive and the distances they have to operate over is vast. In most instances return fuel is carried because of the lack of it in the bush and the nature of the operation. By the way your dig at “compressor stall’s” comments about the operation of the RFDS makes you look a little stupid if you knew his background. Let’s just say he has first hand experience of what he is talking about.
I am sure the sick passengers would rather stop for a refuel with two pilots rather than prang into the deck like Mt Gambier with one pilot.
Meeb
In the UK B200's are flown on aeromed with 2 flight crew and still manage decent leg distances...