Easterns/Sunstate Q400?
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W_K,
Bluff....? Sounds like you've been watching "World Poker" on T.V. too often. They bluff there for the fun of it and all of them playing can afford to lose. E.B.A. is not a game of "bluff". It's a game of bargaining. I hadn't heard of their 2%+2%+1% over 3 years initial offer but, you've agreed that the final 7% straight up was "infinitely better". That's bargaining.
Sounds like you've become a better and safer pilot with your change of attitude anyway for all concerned. Good on you.
S-P,
RFDS and Pearl are "closed shops". Their managements realistically have no where else to turn to for numbers of quick, alternative pilots. SSA and EAA are dealing with Qantas and they hold 3 out of the 4 aces on that bargaining point; 1. SSA vs. EAA (most EAA pilots would jump at the chance to move to Bris.) 2. Airlink(NJS) (NJS would love to get back on the east coast) 3. Jet* (willing to do anything if it makes them bigger).
Bluffing wouldn't get you very much.
Bluff....? Sounds like you've been watching "World Poker" on T.V. too often. They bluff there for the fun of it and all of them playing can afford to lose. E.B.A. is not a game of "bluff". It's a game of bargaining. I hadn't heard of their 2%+2%+1% over 3 years initial offer but, you've agreed that the final 7% straight up was "infinitely better". That's bargaining.
Sounds like you've become a better and safer pilot with your change of attitude anyway for all concerned. Good on you.
S-P,
RFDS and Pearl are "closed shops". Their managements realistically have no where else to turn to for numbers of quick, alternative pilots. SSA and EAA are dealing with Qantas and they hold 3 out of the 4 aces on that bargaining point; 1. SSA vs. EAA (most EAA pilots would jump at the chance to move to Bris.) 2. Airlink(NJS) (NJS would love to get back on the east coast) 3. Jet* (willing to do anything if it makes them bigger).
Bluffing wouldn't get you very much.
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Well main line voted there EBA up.
So l don't think Sunnies are that weak after all.
They got more than we did by far.
So Eastern guys see if you can change the world...good luck.
So l don't think Sunnies are that weak after all.
They got more than we did by far.
So Eastern guys see if you can change the world...good luck.
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Sue Ridgepipe,
In answer your question above, okay you maybe got me on the use of the word "most". It was used entirely on the assumption that the average EAA pilot is as smart as the average person in N.S.W. where the A.B.S. shows the net migration from N.S.W. to Qld. has been and is still strongly northbound. However, I gave the question to a Qlink mate. There have been several(5?) EAA pilots that have taken transfers northbound to Bris. but, no SSA pilots southbound to Sydney. These ex-EAA pilots say its the best decision made by them. Also, says that the pilot intergration talks between EAA and SSA pilots a few years ago, seemed to be "mostly" driven by the EAA pilots desire to get as many positions in Bris. for themselves, thus those talks did't get very far.
Question for you ; Where would you rather live,work and fly out of, Sydney or Brisbane? Brisbane would be my choice, no question on that!
In answer your question above, okay you maybe got me on the use of the word "most". It was used entirely on the assumption that the average EAA pilot is as smart as the average person in N.S.W. where the A.B.S. shows the net migration from N.S.W. to Qld. has been and is still strongly northbound. However, I gave the question to a Qlink mate. There have been several(5?) EAA pilots that have taken transfers northbound to Bris. but, no SSA pilots southbound to Sydney. These ex-EAA pilots say its the best decision made by them. Also, says that the pilot intergration talks between EAA and SSA pilots a few years ago, seemed to be "mostly" driven by the EAA pilots desire to get as many positions in Bris. for themselves, thus those talks did't get very far.
Question for you ; Where would you rather live,work and fly out of, Sydney or Brisbane? Brisbane would be my choice, no question on that!
B55
There is only 3 ex-EAA pilots currently flying with SS, however there seems to be a growing number of ex-EAA Flight Attendants coming to SS.
I think in the near future there won't be too many more EAA pilots employed at SS. That's just my opinion.
Also I don't think too many guys were happy with the 7%, however I think most of us conceded that QF would not offer any more than that and accepted the deal to ensure job security. Who knows, if we knocked it back we could of had a reducing workforce as NJS could get -400 as SS -100's are phased out.
There is only 3 ex-EAA pilots currently flying with SS, however there seems to be a growing number of ex-EAA Flight Attendants coming to SS.
I think in the near future there won't be too many more EAA pilots employed at SS. That's just my opinion.
Also I don't think too many guys were happy with the 7%, however I think most of us conceded that QF would not offer any more than that and accepted the deal to ensure job security. Who knows, if we knocked it back we could of had a reducing workforce as NJS could get -400 as SS -100's are phased out.
Hopefully I'm as smart as the average person in N.S.W, and it isn't difficult to see that SSA + EAA pilots is infinately better than SSA vs EAA. Taking away one of managements aces so to speak.
It's got nothing to do with taking away QLD positions, its got to do with a united workforce. What do you think will happen if (a big if) EAA threatens industrial action now? Use SSA pilots until they tow the line?
SSA can't escape QF management buggery, no employee of the Qantas group can. Maybe it will hurt less coping one from behind when your head is firmly buried in the sand. At least you won't see it coming.
It's got nothing to do with taking away QLD positions, its got to do with a united workforce. What do you think will happen if (a big if) EAA threatens industrial action now? Use SSA pilots until they tow the line?
SSA can't escape QF management buggery, no employee of the Qantas group can. Maybe it will hurt less coping one from behind when your head is firmly buried in the sand. At least you won't see it coming.
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The integration agreement that was proposed between SSA and EAA gave protection to ALL existing SSA pilots as of the cutoff date, which meant that the only way anyone for the first 5 years could transfer to SSA would be as an FO at a base that no existing FO wanted. All existing FO’s in SSA would have preference on any Commands that came up in SSA.
As I understand the Southern Pilots have assimilated into EAA quite well, the EAA pilots that are with SSA had to resign from EAA and be interviewed etc. so not really a transfer.
As I understand the Southern Pilots have assimilated into EAA quite well, the EAA pilots that are with SSA had to resign from EAA and be interviewed etc. so not really a transfer.
b55
My personal preference would be Sydney, but that's just me. I just think it's wrong to assume that most people want to go to Brisbane because some Eastern guys have moved to Sunstate in the past. It's only been a handful (3 if speedjet is on the money), so this doesn't really support your argument.
I also think you'll find that very few Melbourne based Eastern guys would be interested in moving to Brisbane, but I may be wrong.
My personal preference would be Sydney, but that's just me. I just think it's wrong to assume that most people want to go to Brisbane because some Eastern guys have moved to Sunstate in the past. It's only been a handful (3 if speedjet is on the money), so this doesn't really support your argument.
I also think you'll find that very few Melbourne based Eastern guys would be interested in moving to Brisbane, but I may be wrong.
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Hmmm.... With the announcement of the South Australia new runs and an Adelaide base for the Dash 8, it will be interesting to see how many Eastern Sydney pilots go for Adelaide. Are there bids out yet for this?
Yes the bid forms are out, infact the bid closes tomorrow!
From my observation there does not seem to be as much interest in ADL as I would have thought. Probably the short notice has something to do with this.
And for the record I have no interest in a CNS or BNE base, I love to visit the places and many great memories but I'll stay in SYD or maybe ADL
.
From my observation there does not seem to be as much interest in ADL as I would have thought. Probably the short notice has something to do with this.
And for the record I have no interest in a CNS or BNE base, I love to visit the places and many great memories but I'll stay in SYD or maybe ADL
.
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Urban Myths
Hoss,
When I had the opportunity to meet some of the SSA crews earlier this year, the topic of EAA pilots wanting to "come and take our spots" was raised by most that I met. I did what I could to try and dispel this myth, hopefully with some success.
We also discussed base protection, as written elsewhere on this thread by newsensation. Not many seemed to be aware that any integration would have some sort of base protection clause (which works both ways). Both pilot groups expectations of base opportunities and promotion must be taken care of.
IMHO, the statement that Most EAA pilots would jump at a chance to move to Bris" is vicious scaremongering, spread by one senior individual in SSA, and he has no evidence to back this up.
I prefer SY too, Hoss
When I had the opportunity to meet some of the SSA crews earlier this year, the topic of EAA pilots wanting to "come and take our spots" was raised by most that I met. I did what I could to try and dispel this myth, hopefully with some success.
We also discussed base protection, as written elsewhere on this thread by newsensation. Not many seemed to be aware that any integration would have some sort of base protection clause (which works both ways). Both pilot groups expectations of base opportunities and promotion must be taken care of.
IMHO, the statement that Most EAA pilots would jump at a chance to move to Bris" is vicious scaremongering, spread by one senior individual in SSA, and he has no evidence to back this up.
I prefer SY too, Hoss
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This topic's thread turned to the idea that Sunnies pilots had no "backbone" to BLUFF ?! their way to $100,000 + salary for the Dash 8-400. Because SSA pilots soldout for a low $93,000 "with no regard of self worth", now it is left up to EAA pilots to fight alone the IR battle for Qf regionals.
The only voice of reason was given by Badboiblu, an ex-SSA pilot.
Knowing a few of the Sunnies pilots, I didn't think they would get involved with such B.S., so I waded in.
The fact is, you can buy a house or unit in Bris. or Cairns for $200-300,000. In Cairns, you live in outer suburbs or the northern beaches and drive to work in 10-15 minutes, at the speed limit.
The extra $10,000-15,000 gross that Sydney EAA pilots desparately seem to need,(for their self worth) is made up for in the cost of living differences in Qld.
That B.S. had to be answered for.
Good luck to the EAA pilots on their E.B.A. Hope you get what you are looking for.
The only voice of reason was given by Badboiblu, an ex-SSA pilot.
Knowing a few of the Sunnies pilots, I didn't think they would get involved with such B.S., so I waded in.
The fact is, you can buy a house or unit in Bris. or Cairns for $200-300,000. In Cairns, you live in outer suburbs or the northern beaches and drive to work in 10-15 minutes, at the speed limit.
The extra $10,000-15,000 gross that Sydney EAA pilots desparately seem to need,(for their self worth) is made up for in the cost of living differences in Qld.
That B.S. had to be answered for.
Good luck to the EAA pilots on their E.B.A. Hope you get what you are looking for.
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If one was looking to place blame on anyone for the lack of adequate pay for the Q400 it should be placed on the SSA negotiators and the AFAP they are the ones that prepared the deal and told the troops to accept it, why the AFAP could not unite EAA and SSA under and EBA with the same conditions is a mystery or is it….
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IF they do the BN-CB run, it will be to boost frequency IMO. When the 146s were flying they had 6 daily flights - now at 4x 737s. My guess would be 1-2 daily DH4s off peak. CB-AD could also do with a middle of the day Dash service.
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B55, I'm really not sure where your dislike of EAA pilots stems from, but given you don't work for either airline i'm positive it's misplaced. So is this notion that EAA pilots want to mass migrate north and steal command., Hugh's on the money here and it is just the ranting of one misguided SSA pilot who can't seem to understand that he's doing Oldmeadow's work by dividing the groups.
However, you've almost got the point where you say;
" The extra $10,000-15,000 gross that Sydney EAA pilots desparately seem to need,(for their self worth) is made up for in the cost of living differences in Qld."
EXCEPT, i think you'll find that the EAA guys don't need the extra for their "self worth", but rather because the cost of living is so much more. I think if a SSA base is offered in Sydney to work our arse of on the 400 for 93000 there won't be a rush of people to get down there.
The whole point is that if we all stuck together we'd all get more, as you're not effected either way, you can take you divisive comments and go talk **** elsewhere
However, you've almost got the point where you say;
" The extra $10,000-15,000 gross that Sydney EAA pilots desparately seem to need,(for their self worth) is made up for in the cost of living differences in Qld."
EXCEPT, i think you'll find that the EAA guys don't need the extra for their "self worth", but rather because the cost of living is so much more. I think if a SSA base is offered in Sydney to work our arse of on the 400 for 93000 there won't be a rush of people to get down there.
The whole point is that if we all stuck together we'd all get more, as you're not effected either way, you can take you divisive comments and go talk **** elsewhere
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W-K,
Hey, a bit of balance here please, W_K. My "talking ****" PALES next to others in this topic; for example,
Spinout , "...just so they could get the EASY OPTION (SSA) finished first."
W_K,"...hang their heads IN SHAME."
"...They (SSA) had the **** SCARED OUT OF THEM by their
own side."
"sunnies have had THEIR LAST bite of the cherry..."
"...ONLY hope of a decent rate...now lies in the hands of
EAA."
Doctor Smith,"Of course, QF went for the WEAKEST LINK in SSA
because they knew EASTERN PILOTS HAVE
BACKBONE."
Stick Pusher, "...or have they (SSA) already voted to accept this
token amount for NO GOOD REASON WITH NO
REGARD OF SELF WORTH?"
I have no reasons what so ever to dislike EAA pilots.(don't know any to dislike!) My only feelings would be a general respect for them as professional airline pilots. Perception is Reality and if I gave you the wrong perception on this than I do apologise for that. Just trying to find out the reality of the truth in the middle of all this topic.(Most interesting one at the moment)
Acouple of unanswered questions ;
What is " drafting " in the EBA? (asked above)
If the proposed QF regional pilot integration was fair and equal to all pilot groups, why didn't it get ratified? I would certainly agree that if you guys were all one group then your strength in greater numbers would have helped you out this EBA.
Are you sure you're "more relaxed", W_K ? I can personally recommend several therapy counsellors that will do you the world of good!!!
Hey, a bit of balance here please, W_K. My "talking ****" PALES next to others in this topic; for example,
Spinout , "...just so they could get the EASY OPTION (SSA) finished first."
W_K,"...hang their heads IN SHAME."
"...They (SSA) had the **** SCARED OUT OF THEM by their
own side."
"sunnies have had THEIR LAST bite of the cherry..."
"...ONLY hope of a decent rate...now lies in the hands of
EAA."
Doctor Smith,"Of course, QF went for the WEAKEST LINK in SSA
because they knew EASTERN PILOTS HAVE
BACKBONE."
Stick Pusher, "...or have they (SSA) already voted to accept this
token amount for NO GOOD REASON WITH NO
REGARD OF SELF WORTH?"
I have no reasons what so ever to dislike EAA pilots.(don't know any to dislike!) My only feelings would be a general respect for them as professional airline pilots. Perception is Reality and if I gave you the wrong perception on this than I do apologise for that. Just trying to find out the reality of the truth in the middle of all this topic.(Most interesting one at the moment)
Acouple of unanswered questions ;
What is " drafting " in the EBA? (asked above)
If the proposed QF regional pilot integration was fair and equal to all pilot groups, why didn't it get ratified? I would certainly agree that if you guys were all one group then your strength in greater numbers would have helped you out this EBA.
Are you sure you're "more relaxed", W_K ? I can personally recommend several therapy counsellors that will do you the world of good!!!
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If the proposed QF regional pilot integration was fair and equal to all pilot groups, why didn't it get ratified?
b55,
The FA's already have drafting in their EBA and it sucks for them. Basically whenever the company is not able to crew flights due to a lack of reserves (read too stingy to employ enough staff) they can force the FA's to complete a further couple of sectors after their rostered shift. So much for planning your life outside work when your shifts get blown out by 3-4 hours
bbb, should be something out this week for us to have a look at.
The FA's already have drafting in their EBA and it sucks for them. Basically whenever the company is not able to crew flights due to a lack of reserves (read too stingy to employ enough staff) they can force the FA's to complete a further couple of sectors after their rostered shift. So much for planning your life outside work when your shifts get blown out by 3-4 hours
bbb, should be something out this week for us to have a look at.