Easterns/Sunstate Q400?
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Beverly Hills
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All this talk about the Integration Agreement
Some facts:
The Integration Agreement between SAA and EAA was about as fair as they come and drawn up by those with some experience in such matters.
Datal seniority respected; 3 year base protection for each group; route expansion clauses; equipment protection clauses; no downtraining of any Dash 8 crew. Most if not all crew then employed in SAA at the date of Integration attained command status prior to the expiry of the Agreement and the removal of base protection.
Yes, the SAA 146 crew were hard done by overall, but this was more to do with the advent of Impulse/Jetstar taking over the 146 routes, than the amalgamation of SAA/EAA and could not be levelled at anything in the integration agreement. The most generous of all the conditions was EAA management's decision to avoid downtraining. Dash 8 command positions were increased and excess leave used to avoid downscaling and penalty to any crew member. A pretty generous thing to do..
SSA were involved in the negotiations from the start and a 5 year base protection condition was agreed for them. The negotiators were not very interested because it didn't directly affect them and they only offered lip-service. They balked in the end because integration with Impulse was not achieved - one of the conditions they insisted on.
5 years base protection would have easily seen all the SSA F/Os achieve Command status ahead of any EAA/SAA crew member who was interested in bidding for a BNE/CNS position.
On a good day, there'd be 10 out of 200 possibles in EAA who are interested in going up north.
What was more sickening was that the grapevine later revealed the SSA negotiators sided with Oldmeadow at the time to criticise the EAA negotiator on a number of matters. Unbelievable from 2 blokes involved in the big one against the same bloke 16 years earlier. Highly regarded AFAP reps as well - no surprises there.
If you're going to debate matters, stick to the facts. I'm pretty sick of hearing the b.s. that gets flung at the EAA/SAA I.A. by people who have NFI.
Y'all come back now y'hear.
The Integration Agreement between SAA and EAA was about as fair as they come and drawn up by those with some experience in such matters.
Datal seniority respected; 3 year base protection for each group; route expansion clauses; equipment protection clauses; no downtraining of any Dash 8 crew. Most if not all crew then employed in SAA at the date of Integration attained command status prior to the expiry of the Agreement and the removal of base protection.
Yes, the SAA 146 crew were hard done by overall, but this was more to do with the advent of Impulse/Jetstar taking over the 146 routes, than the amalgamation of SAA/EAA and could not be levelled at anything in the integration agreement. The most generous of all the conditions was EAA management's decision to avoid downtraining. Dash 8 command positions were increased and excess leave used to avoid downscaling and penalty to any crew member. A pretty generous thing to do..
SSA were involved in the negotiations from the start and a 5 year base protection condition was agreed for them. The negotiators were not very interested because it didn't directly affect them and they only offered lip-service. They balked in the end because integration with Impulse was not achieved - one of the conditions they insisted on.
5 years base protection would have easily seen all the SSA F/Os achieve Command status ahead of any EAA/SAA crew member who was interested in bidding for a BNE/CNS position.
On a good day, there'd be 10 out of 200 possibles in EAA who are interested in going up north.
What was more sickening was that the grapevine later revealed the SSA negotiators sided with Oldmeadow at the time to criticise the EAA negotiator on a number of matters. Unbelievable from 2 blokes involved in the big one against the same bloke 16 years earlier. Highly regarded AFAP reps as well - no surprises there.
If you're going to debate matters, stick to the facts. I'm pretty sick of hearing the b.s. that gets flung at the EAA/SAA I.A. by people who have NFI.
Y'all come back now y'hear.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: The Far Side
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just looking for the facts man. Thanks for that anyway. Didn't ever say I knew them. I thought this was the point of these forums. Calm, rational discussions. Not inflammatory insults. Again good luck to the EAA pilots.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Oztraya
Posts: 354
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Most if not all crew then employed in SAA at the date of Integration attained command status prior to the expiry of the Agreement and the removal of base protection.
Do you mean all the 146 crew who came back with Dash 8 commands retained them after the expiry date?
There has only been 1 MEL F/O get a command over the life of the agreement. Everyone else who was a MEL F/O at the merger is still a F/O.
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Beverly Hills
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
G'Day HJ,
Yeah..bin a while-finally found the password. Took your advice about quotes..
b55,
Are we reading the same topic?..
On 4/11 22:58 you wrote..
and this on 8/11 05:59 ..
The I.A was ratified, it just didn't include SSA for reasons only known to them. So by contrast, I think my general rebuke of the misleading personal interpretations made by you were very politely handled. Your last comment regarding strength in numbers is not disputed. Can we please now drop the personal stuff - I felt the need to strongly state the facts the other night - that's all..
Pimp Daddy,
You are right in saying that the most junior SAA F/O in April '02 pre-integration hadn't achieved command status by April this year and my statement misled. The reality however was caused by surplus aircrew and not the integration or the I.A. The die was cast by the Impulse purchase, making the 3x146 aircraft redundant in the turboprop group. As we'd agree, the correct/fair handling would have been to shift the 146 pilot group to Impulse/QF, instead, the backflowing 146 group into the Dash8 group put F/O promotion on hold.
The situation was/is vastly different in the case of a EAA/SSA integration where there is no need to consider backflowing crew or pilots on LWOP with a ghost seniority no. In other words promotion at SSA would not have stagnated in the same way and conceivably the most junior F/O would have achieved the command prior to the I.A. expiry date, supposing 5 year base protection - the IA would have worked very nicely.
This was plainly the case in April '02 and the SSA blokes just let it slip because they were either misinformed (very likely by their reps) or their own ignorance. It couldn't have been self-interest because self-interest was well taken care of by significant base protection.
My long-winded point on this topic is because the whole notion of flight crew unity has been spruiked by high-calibre individuals in this industry for years. The message is clearly out there and is not new. When the opportunity presented itself back in '02, the unified outcome most would agree was in our collective best interests, couldn't be achieved. This wasn't the fault of the I.A. however and the SSA pilot group would have known this had they taken the interest to read the fine print, understood the implications and genuinely wanted the same thing we all want.
Please stop the parochial rubbish about the hordes from south of the border wanting to take your jobs - dag nabbitt, even the Clampett family's over that one.... now where's me wittellin' stick.
Yeah..bin a while-finally found the password. Took your advice about quotes..
b55,
Are we reading the same topic?..
On 4/11 22:58 you wrote..
Also, says that the pilot intergration talks between EAA and SSA pilots a few years ago, seemed to be "mostly" driven by the EAA pilots desire to get as many positions in Bris. for themselves, thus those talks did't get very far.
If the proposed QF regional pilot integration was fair and equal to all pilot groups, why didn't it get ratified? I would certainly agree that if you guys were all one group then your strength in greater numbers would have helped you out this EBA.
Pimp Daddy,
You are right in saying that the most junior SAA F/O in April '02 pre-integration hadn't achieved command status by April this year and my statement misled. The reality however was caused by surplus aircrew and not the integration or the I.A. The die was cast by the Impulse purchase, making the 3x146 aircraft redundant in the turboprop group. As we'd agree, the correct/fair handling would have been to shift the 146 pilot group to Impulse/QF, instead, the backflowing 146 group into the Dash8 group put F/O promotion on hold.
The situation was/is vastly different in the case of a EAA/SSA integration where there is no need to consider backflowing crew or pilots on LWOP with a ghost seniority no. In other words promotion at SSA would not have stagnated in the same way and conceivably the most junior F/O would have achieved the command prior to the I.A. expiry date, supposing 5 year base protection - the IA would have worked very nicely.
This was plainly the case in April '02 and the SSA blokes just let it slip because they were either misinformed (very likely by their reps) or their own ignorance. It couldn't have been self-interest because self-interest was well taken care of by significant base protection.
My long-winded point on this topic is because the whole notion of flight crew unity has been spruiked by high-calibre individuals in this industry for years. The message is clearly out there and is not new. When the opportunity presented itself back in '02, the unified outcome most would agree was in our collective best interests, couldn't be achieved. This wasn't the fault of the I.A. however and the SSA pilot group would have known this had they taken the interest to read the fine print, understood the implications and genuinely wanted the same thing we all want.
Please stop the parochial rubbish about the hordes from south of the border wanting to take your jobs - dag nabbitt, even the Clampett family's over that one.... now where's me wittellin' stick.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Oztraya
Posts: 354
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You are right in saying that the most junior SAA F/O in April '02 pre-integration hadn't achieved command status by April this year and my statement misled.
Meanwhile 8-10 EAA SYD F/O's have swanned thru MEL for a couple of months, grabbed a commmand and swanned off back to Sydney - yes thats per the integration agreement, but it still sucks.
This is an agreement that was going to have whatever EAA wanted in it anyway.
Just like any other vote, Sydney way or the highway.
this is not a good time to be planning any sort of fight with qf management stand out on the plank and it will be cut from under you !
the really sad part of all this is that some of the factions within eaa have very short memories and continue to believe in their own self importance - have a look around and see how many new divisions qf have started in syd of late - yes they have a plan to move much of their operation right out of syd as it has long been known that it is their very worst enemy right back from the days when the show was owned by the government some seniors have now even admitted that closing ssa was a poor call and one of those responsible is no longer on the payroll it was at the time a geographical decision and not one based on efficiency and work culture
for those of you that were about some 15 years ago ask some questions as to why the regional pilots (eaa/ssa/saa) did not get career progression into qf and the f/a's did wonder why that is so ? sadly not many seem to accept the truth about this including the oldies in the afap who I believe helped screw it for good
think about it guys the inbred culture in eaa and other sectors of qf that are in syd are slowly being pulled apart bit by bit it is the only way to progress the group as a whole eg - why dont you compare the sick leave in all the ql bases and then ask why is it so high at one port this costs heaps and if you dont think something needs to be done then you are living in never never land
the 400 is a great machine and those that get to fly it will no doubt enjoy the experience but you can bet that trying to screw qf for more $ is not going to be a winner and will only lead to more (all) of the a/c being crewed by ssa as now seems to be the case after that you can bet that more and more will be crewed out of bne and mel and maybe even cbr
embrace the change chaps it is almost upon you
the really sad part of all this is that some of the factions within eaa have very short memories and continue to believe in their own self importance - have a look around and see how many new divisions qf have started in syd of late - yes they have a plan to move much of their operation right out of syd as it has long been known that it is their very worst enemy right back from the days when the show was owned by the government some seniors have now even admitted that closing ssa was a poor call and one of those responsible is no longer on the payroll it was at the time a geographical decision and not one based on efficiency and work culture
for those of you that were about some 15 years ago ask some questions as to why the regional pilots (eaa/ssa/saa) did not get career progression into qf and the f/a's did wonder why that is so ? sadly not many seem to accept the truth about this including the oldies in the afap who I believe helped screw it for good
think about it guys the inbred culture in eaa and other sectors of qf that are in syd are slowly being pulled apart bit by bit it is the only way to progress the group as a whole eg - why dont you compare the sick leave in all the ql bases and then ask why is it so high at one port this costs heaps and if you dont think something needs to be done then you are living in never never land
the 400 is a great machine and those that get to fly it will no doubt enjoy the experience but you can bet that trying to screw qf for more $ is not going to be a winner and will only lead to more (all) of the a/c being crewed by ssa as now seems to be the case after that you can bet that more and more will be crewed out of bne and mel and maybe even cbr
embrace the change chaps it is almost upon you
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Beverly Hills
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Some more facts
Pimp Daddy,
Many options were examined for this integration. Some suggested datal seniority pure and simple with no protection, but this would have disadvantaged SAA. The basic idea behind the I.A. was to temporarily preserve the original expectations of each pilot group. At the date of integration there were 3 Dash 8's in MEL. Immediately after integration, 1 Dash 8 was removed from SYD and based in MEL. This aircraft wasn't an additional unit but a transfer and the command upgrade expectations it created went to MEL with it. That's why SYD pilots filtered through MEL during the I.A period.. This clause protected SAA pilots in the same way. Had an original MEL aircraft been permanently moved to SYD - the flying entitlement for SAA pilots would have moved to SYD with it, etc. If this clause didn't exist, it would have meant one pilot group would have unreasonably profitted by the other group's loss.
Eventhough EAA pilots moved through MEL, the combined seniority list showed that for the most part, the datal seniority of the EAA pilots gaining initial commands in MEL was about the same as existing SAA command pilots and the basic principles of seniority were being respected.
To repeat, the reason promotions stagnated at SAA wasn't due to the conditions of the IA, but because the total fleet units were reduced from six aircraft to three when the 3x146's went and many crew became excess. While VR, LWOP and resignations took care of a lot of these excess crew, 75 original SAA crew dropped to approx 45 and that's about 10 more than required for 3 aircraft. The positive side to this is that forced redundancy was avoided and the 10 or so excess crew numbers were absorbed by assigning leave to the remainder.
Integrations rarely proceed without their problems but this one went fairly smoothly and without legal challenge or unfair advantage to any one of the groups involved. As predicted at the time though, it would still be a topic of discussion years later.
Bonez,
The people that you mention from 15 years ago have long gone and are not indicative of the pilot group that now exists.
If you think the only reason the regional group didn't achieve promotional opportunities into mainline was because of their representations, you are grossly mistaken. Training/transfer cost was/still is a major deterrent to this ever happening. Don't oversimplify the CC case with FC. You'd find it very difficult to keep anyone as CC for any length of time if mainline transfer wasn't a part of their agreement. Of course, the training costs of such a move bear no comparison to the transfer of FC. The answer to the excess sick leave, if in fact your statement was true, may be for any number of reasons. Comparative rostering practices with min rest periods; relative ages of the pilot groups concerned, etc.
The fact of the matter is that EAA pilots cop heaps probably because we just happen to be the larger group and some people find this unsettling. The current pilot group has no less an interest in seeing the company prosper as anyone else in the Qlink group. We try just as hard to make our operation run profitably and on time against the backdrop of a more difficult operating environment at SYD airport, greater competition on our routes than our northern cousins, fewer large population centres to service, etc.
It's about time the EAA bad boy image was put to rest by those outside of the Qlink organisation who really don't know the truth of the matter and those in some parts of the organisation who have something to gain by deceitfully prolonging it.
Many options were examined for this integration. Some suggested datal seniority pure and simple with no protection, but this would have disadvantaged SAA. The basic idea behind the I.A. was to temporarily preserve the original expectations of each pilot group. At the date of integration there were 3 Dash 8's in MEL. Immediately after integration, 1 Dash 8 was removed from SYD and based in MEL. This aircraft wasn't an additional unit but a transfer and the command upgrade expectations it created went to MEL with it. That's why SYD pilots filtered through MEL during the I.A period.. This clause protected SAA pilots in the same way. Had an original MEL aircraft been permanently moved to SYD - the flying entitlement for SAA pilots would have moved to SYD with it, etc. If this clause didn't exist, it would have meant one pilot group would have unreasonably profitted by the other group's loss.
Eventhough EAA pilots moved through MEL, the combined seniority list showed that for the most part, the datal seniority of the EAA pilots gaining initial commands in MEL was about the same as existing SAA command pilots and the basic principles of seniority were being respected.
To repeat, the reason promotions stagnated at SAA wasn't due to the conditions of the IA, but because the total fleet units were reduced from six aircraft to three when the 3x146's went and many crew became excess. While VR, LWOP and resignations took care of a lot of these excess crew, 75 original SAA crew dropped to approx 45 and that's about 10 more than required for 3 aircraft. The positive side to this is that forced redundancy was avoided and the 10 or so excess crew numbers were absorbed by assigning leave to the remainder.
Integrations rarely proceed without their problems but this one went fairly smoothly and without legal challenge or unfair advantage to any one of the groups involved. As predicted at the time though, it would still be a topic of discussion years later.
Bonez,
The people that you mention from 15 years ago have long gone and are not indicative of the pilot group that now exists.
If you think the only reason the regional group didn't achieve promotional opportunities into mainline was because of their representations, you are grossly mistaken. Training/transfer cost was/still is a major deterrent to this ever happening. Don't oversimplify the CC case with FC. You'd find it very difficult to keep anyone as CC for any length of time if mainline transfer wasn't a part of their agreement. Of course, the training costs of such a move bear no comparison to the transfer of FC. The answer to the excess sick leave, if in fact your statement was true, may be for any number of reasons. Comparative rostering practices with min rest periods; relative ages of the pilot groups concerned, etc.
The fact of the matter is that EAA pilots cop heaps probably because we just happen to be the larger group and some people find this unsettling. The current pilot group has no less an interest in seeing the company prosper as anyone else in the Qlink group. We try just as hard to make our operation run profitably and on time against the backdrop of a more difficult operating environment at SYD airport, greater competition on our routes than our northern cousins, fewer large population centres to service, etc.
It's about time the EAA bad boy image was put to rest by those outside of the Qlink organisation who really don't know the truth of the matter and those in some parts of the organisation who have something to gain by deceitfully prolonging it.
