Heros doing heros
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People have accused former Ansett pilots of undermining the industry by accepting employment at Jetstar for lower wages than they previously enjoyed. However, the same could be said of “89ers” when they joined Virgin Blue, especially when you consider that dispute pilots were the key architects in Virgin’s salary levels. Similarly, QF mainline pilots were apparently happy to accept B scale pay within their ranks. No single group can claim the high moral ground in this puerile debate.
“Scobs screwing scobs. Ain't it fun to watch.”
Hi’er,
Resorting to vilification may comfort you somewhat but such behavior adds nothing to the debate at all. There are enormous forces at play in the airline industry – changing customer demands, low cost carriers, high fuel prices, higher insurance costs and especially in Australia (and the US – read DL and NW), a government keen on industrial workplace reform. The change in the airline industry in Australia is merely a reflection of the industry world wide but according to some ppruners on this thread – the blame lies with Ansett pilots. Or Jetstar pilots. Or “heroes”. Or 89ers. Simple solutions to complex problems may be soothing for the simple mind but achieve very little.
“And it gets better, some of the ex An hero's offering to crew A330's for 'just a little' more than their current very low A320 salary”
Karunch,
Perhaps you could explain why you think an A330 pilot should be paid more than an A320 pilot.
“Scobs screwing scobs. Ain't it fun to watch.”
Hi’er,
Resorting to vilification may comfort you somewhat but such behavior adds nothing to the debate at all. There are enormous forces at play in the airline industry – changing customer demands, low cost carriers, high fuel prices, higher insurance costs and especially in Australia (and the US – read DL and NW), a government keen on industrial workplace reform. The change in the airline industry in Australia is merely a reflection of the industry world wide but according to some ppruners on this thread – the blame lies with Ansett pilots. Or Jetstar pilots. Or “heroes”. Or 89ers. Simple solutions to complex problems may be soothing for the simple mind but achieve very little.
“And it gets better, some of the ex An hero's offering to crew A330's for 'just a little' more than their current very low A320 salary”
Karunch,
Perhaps you could explain why you think an A330 pilot should be paid more than an A320 pilot.
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Quite frankly, the companies don't give a square root about WHO crews their aircraft, just as long as they fly.
The seniority system, if incorporated, is something that the companies are able to use as a lever against the pilot body.
By the same token, it gives the united pilot group an assurance that everyone will one day be GUARANTEED a shot at upgrading.
With a non-seniority system, the companies can place whomever they want, wherever they want. They can work one fella 20 hours a month, and another 100.
They can give one individual minimum days off each and every month, but favour another with whatever they wish.
Only to make the point that the Ansett heros are habitual, repeat offenders - first they stuffed the seniority system, now they've set their sights on driving lower what are already miserable salaries by most other standards.
It's the price we're ALL paying AGAIN for not taking an active interest in protecting our environment by keeping it clean, and clearing the muck out.
It's polluting whatever it comes in contact with.
S G.
The seniority system, if incorporated, is something that the companies are able to use as a lever against the pilot body.
By the same token, it gives the united pilot group an assurance that everyone will one day be GUARANTEED a shot at upgrading.
With a non-seniority system, the companies can place whomever they want, wherever they want. They can work one fella 20 hours a month, and another 100.
They can give one individual minimum days off each and every month, but favour another with whatever they wish.
People have accused former Ansett pilots of undermining the industry by accepting employment at Jetstar for lower wages than they previously enjoyed. However, the same could be said of “89ers”
It's the price we're ALL paying AGAIN for not taking an active interest in protecting our environment by keeping it clean, and clearing the muck out.
It's polluting whatever it comes in contact with.
S G.
And that, FO Bong (provided you meet the company standard for the left hand seat) is why we need a datal seniority system to stop abuse of people they don't like.
OIC,
Because in private enterprise, the more people you have responsibility for and the more expensive the equipment you manage the more you get paid. Or perhaps the John Howard should get the same pay as the Mayor of Giles. BTW, you're not ex military are you?
OIC,
you could explain why you think an A330 pilot should be paid more than an A320 pilot.
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yeah and that's the problem Capn Bloggs, it's the military heroes, somehow they think that it all belongs to them, they are gods gift to aviation, if my friend wants to fly a 330 for the same pay as a 320 that's none of your bisiness, because that is also practised in private enterprise, right hero!!.
Like your company can undercut someone else and drive them out of business and you will shed, how many crocodile tears, as you get your early command way beyond your station, hey hero!!
In Private Enterprise as you put it I'm allowed to under cut my competitor anytime I want, hey what do you recon about that hero,
What about you Hi'er, you just said it as long as the aircraft fly, right hero, and your claim that the Ansett heroes are habitual offenders of what, you know jack **** of what you are talking about, its the heroes of your ilk what I call the cancer that are driving the standards down you are the hero back stabbers.
You 89er heroes had all the choices, and still were able to shat in your own nests without to much dificulty, the Ansett heroes had no choice, they are really the true heroes.
Like your company can undercut someone else and drive them out of business and you will shed, how many crocodile tears, as you get your early command way beyond your station, hey hero!!
In Private Enterprise as you put it I'm allowed to under cut my competitor anytime I want, hey what do you recon about that hero,
What about you Hi'er, you just said it as long as the aircraft fly, right hero, and your claim that the Ansett heroes are habitual offenders of what, you know jack **** of what you are talking about, its the heroes of your ilk what I call the cancer that are driving the standards down you are the hero back stabbers.
You 89er heroes had all the choices, and still were able to shat in your own nests without to much dificulty, the Ansett heroes had no choice, they are really the true heroes.
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Bloggs, If 'they' really dont like you 'they' can try to fail you out of the company. It's not hard to invent a standards "problem" when you check someone, if you want to; No one is perfect. This would occur whether or not a promotion occured by the means of datal or experiential seniority. They only remedy for this situation is to ensure that the industrial award provides for an independant person to come on the jump seat during check rides, if required.
HI- The rostering senario that you speak of would only occur with crewing department complicity. Given that the 100hr/month pilot would soon run into duty limits, the system would self correct quite quickly. Rostering systems whereby datal seniority plays role in bidding for flying blocks can cause the same problems too, if 'senior' pilots are bidding for reserve blocks. Same goes for time off at Christmas and new year. There are various practices that companies without datal seniority use that ensures that a fair roster is generated for everyone.
Quite frankly, I am not sure that it is desirable that every pilot should get a shot at upgrading. I am sure that everyone knows a Captain or two that shouldn't be in the job. Consider what would happen if a pilot who was marginal was promoted and then killed people; you could make his epitath "Well he was next in line and he did pass the check". If it came out at an inquest that this person was not the most suitable for promotion at the time, how would you then defend the concept of datal seniority to the greiving relatives, the insurures, the legal system, the industry or yourself?
HI- The rostering senario that you speak of would only occur with crewing department complicity. Given that the 100hr/month pilot would soon run into duty limits, the system would self correct quite quickly. Rostering systems whereby datal seniority plays role in bidding for flying blocks can cause the same problems too, if 'senior' pilots are bidding for reserve blocks. Same goes for time off at Christmas and new year. There are various practices that companies without datal seniority use that ensures that a fair roster is generated for everyone.
Quite frankly, I am not sure that it is desirable that every pilot should get a shot at upgrading. I am sure that everyone knows a Captain or two that shouldn't be in the job. Consider what would happen if a pilot who was marginal was promoted and then killed people; you could make his epitath "Well he was next in line and he did pass the check". If it came out at an inquest that this person was not the most suitable for promotion at the time, how would you then defend the concept of datal seniority to the greiving relatives, the insurures, the legal system, the industry or yourself?
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Hang on Yorick, steady on....I have allot of time for the military guys, there are quite a few good ex jocks that fly for QF etc etc.
Lets not forget that Impulse NEVER had a seniority system, the core of Jet* is Impulse, the guys that could never get a job anywhere else, started the pay for training rubbish on the C99's, then the 1900's and fostered a culture of suckholes.
Don't equate the Impulse suckholes with the ex Ansett guys, as at one stage, Ansett was a professional airline, Impulse however................well, a picture paints a thousand words.
Lets not forget that Impulse NEVER had a seniority system, the core of Jet* is Impulse, the guys that could never get a job anywhere else, started the pay for training rubbish on the C99's, then the 1900's and fostered a culture of suckholes.
Don't equate the Impulse suckholes with the ex Ansett guys, as at one stage, Ansett was a professional airline, Impulse however................well, a picture paints a thousand words.
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If 'they' really dont like you 'they' can try to fail you out of the company. It's not hard to invent a standards "problem" when you check someone
The rostering senario that you speak of would only occur with crewing department complicity.
Given that the 100hr/month pilot would soon run into duty limits, the system would self correct quite quickly.
They can work one fella 30 hours a month, and another 90.
" the system would self correct quite quickly" - that statement does not make sense at all
Consider what would happen if a pilot who was marginal was promoted and then killed people;
As long as everyone is checked within the limits of the required and designated standards, then the companies, regulatory bodies, and insurers are going to be happy.
Are telling us, Ralph, that in the job YOU are in, you are not expecting consideration for further advance - be that a type upgrade, or a status upgrading (eg. to Training or Checking, or HIGHER), because of your general overall increase in experience, and specifically your employer's operations, since joing the company, over someone who might be slightly more generally experienced, but has been in the company for a much lesser time?
Do you expect annual, incremental increases?
Should F/O's ever expect a shot at the lhs, regardless of their time in the company simply because there will ALWAYS be more experienced pilots available to the company?
Or should we support "Scabs' Rules"? First in best dressed - and if it looks like you're going to get beaten because the other players look like they might pip you, then offer to work for LESS.
S.G.
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HI'er, or is it Jenny George, Simon Creane...... Mao, Lenin, Carl Marx?
Of course experience in a company should be considered but not as you determine should be so heavilly weighted. It should be one factor BEHIND many such as those stated previously. Imagine if other large companies, or even sporting teams, determine promotion by start date. Just 'cause a guy has played for the club in 4th grade for past 8 years does that mean he should automatically begin proomotion up the ranks? Can't catch, pass or tackle, buy hey, he's been around here a while!
Companies recruit from the outside when the talent from the inside isn't what they need. And yes, that might indicate glitches in the recruitment and inhouse training dept.
"If several applicants are similarly qualified, it probably will - or to the bigger brown noser, or the one willing to work for less than the others".
Get the chip off you're shoulder!!!!! Is everyone out to get you? For every company I've worked for "brown nosers" and the like are easilly identified and not considered real because the way they behave is not real - they go about their business with alterior motives. The person who turns up for work well presented, on time / before time, does some extra work or study because he or she wants to, goes about it in a humble manner, and EVEN loves the job they do IS noticed. But to you that person is a brown noser.....
Get over the state of aviation, and what LCC have caused as a fact of market forces to pilot salaries and conditions. Not one of us likes it (we HATE it!), but you blame the pilots taking up positions when their past company went belly-up, or sold to another, etc. You find ONE pilot with a house, mortgage, kids at school and wife pregnant, or, a younger single pilot trying to get into that first jet job who would not, could not refuse to take up that job to begin an airline career. Yes some pilots do none of us any favours but you're not living in the real world.
Don't blame a person for accepting a job offered to them, despite someone's TWU buddy who called in for a sickie because there was a good episode of Oprah on and missed the position for bid memo on the crew notice board.... but he/she has been around for years!!!
Unfortunately HI'ers thoughts are alive and very well. I know of one regional carrier whose new EBA prohibits anything but promotion via start date seniorority. That to me breeds a culture of mediocrity.
Of course experience in a company should be considered but not as you determine should be so heavilly weighted. It should be one factor BEHIND many such as those stated previously. Imagine if other large companies, or even sporting teams, determine promotion by start date. Just 'cause a guy has played for the club in 4th grade for past 8 years does that mean he should automatically begin proomotion up the ranks? Can't catch, pass or tackle, buy hey, he's been around here a while!
Companies recruit from the outside when the talent from the inside isn't what they need. And yes, that might indicate glitches in the recruitment and inhouse training dept.
"If several applicants are similarly qualified, it probably will - or to the bigger brown noser, or the one willing to work for less than the others".
Get the chip off you're shoulder!!!!! Is everyone out to get you? For every company I've worked for "brown nosers" and the like are easilly identified and not considered real because the way they behave is not real - they go about their business with alterior motives. The person who turns up for work well presented, on time / before time, does some extra work or study because he or she wants to, goes about it in a humble manner, and EVEN loves the job they do IS noticed. But to you that person is a brown noser.....
Get over the state of aviation, and what LCC have caused as a fact of market forces to pilot salaries and conditions. Not one of us likes it (we HATE it!), but you blame the pilots taking up positions when their past company went belly-up, or sold to another, etc. You find ONE pilot with a house, mortgage, kids at school and wife pregnant, or, a younger single pilot trying to get into that first jet job who would not, could not refuse to take up that job to begin an airline career. Yes some pilots do none of us any favours but you're not living in the real world.
Don't blame a person for accepting a job offered to them, despite someone's TWU buddy who called in for a sickie because there was a good episode of Oprah on and missed the position for bid memo on the crew notice board.... but he/she has been around for years!!!
Unfortunately HI'ers thoughts are alive and very well. I know of one regional carrier whose new EBA prohibits anything but promotion via start date seniorority. That to me breeds a culture of mediocrity.
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If you would care to re-read my post, and compare it with your own TopTup, I believe you will find we are more in agreement than not.
I'm not sure if you are a pilot (or not), as your example of a graded player in a sports team isn't really comparable to that of professional aviators.
It's accepted that pilots' skills continue to develop (in most cases) with experience. Not only manipulative skills required for configuring the aircraft, but also decision-making skills, crew management, knowledge of weather, company operating procedures, and a multitude of others.
The constant C & T systems airlines incorporate soon weed out the types of people you cite, and so although a seniority system will ensure that each person becomes eligible within approximately a similar time frame as though ahead and behind him, it does NOT mean that he must take the offer up when made.
He may prefer to be bypassed.
The seniority system NEVER prevented the companies from making managerial/check/training appointments, to anyone they considered worthy, regardless of their seniority.
The topic under discussion is of ORDINARY line pilots prostituting themselves - actually less than prostituting - whoring themselves, because they believe they are UNABLE to compete on the same level as the ESTABLISHED pilots.
This is NOT normal, non-airline company behaviour.
Company promotions of the rank and file - which pilots are - are generally based on the merits of employees observed over their service period within that company ("seniority").
I'm not sure if you are a pilot (or not), as your example of a graded player in a sports team isn't really comparable to that of professional aviators.
It's accepted that pilots' skills continue to develop (in most cases) with experience. Not only manipulative skills required for configuring the aircraft, but also decision-making skills, crew management, knowledge of weather, company operating procedures, and a multitude of others.
The constant C & T systems airlines incorporate soon weed out the types of people you cite, and so although a seniority system will ensure that each person becomes eligible within approximately a similar time frame as though ahead and behind him, it does NOT mean that he must take the offer up when made.
He may prefer to be bypassed.
The seniority system NEVER prevented the companies from making managerial/check/training appointments, to anyone they considered worthy, regardless of their seniority.
The topic under discussion is of ORDINARY line pilots prostituting themselves - actually less than prostituting - whoring themselves, because they believe they are UNABLE to compete on the same level as the ESTABLISHED pilots.
This is NOT normal, non-airline company behaviour.
Company promotions of the rank and file - which pilots are - are generally based on the merits of employees observed over their service period within that company ("seniority").
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No Mr Conrad, I would never equate the Impulse suckholes with the Ansett guys, there is no comparison, I do see in lots of shades of grey when it comes to ex military types like any other types.
And yes Ansett was one of the worlds great airlines, it was a total tragedy on how it was disposed of, something the snotty nose heroes don't understand.
And yes Ansett was one of the worlds great airlines, it was a total tragedy on how it was disposed of, something the snotty nose heroes don't understand.
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HI- A condesending attitude is not a substitute for a well constructed arguement. Further, I do not need your help in comprehension of what you and others have writen. You, on the other hand..
Before we take off on another tangent, the victimisation of any pilot by way of a abuse of the checking or rosatering system cannot be tollerated. In fact there are laws in place (for how much longer under Howard I dont know) that protect people from victimisation. If the senario that you described were played out, the pilot involved would simply have to get copies of the other rosters, determine the average time away/weekends off/ holidays worked hours flow etc. and compare the deviation from the norm that his roster gives him/her. Any bias would be easy to determine and demonstrate a solid case of workplace harrasment.
My interpretation of the thread topic is that of promotion away from datal seniority, not of "whoring oneself". The orginal post stated that the former was what had transpired at Jet*.
I think that we all understand that in the Jet* case, the FOs who were promoted to capt. were experienced on the type and had been in the company for some time. If they were assessed to be superior candidates for the slots, then this would be to the advantage of a greater number of people than if promotion were on strick datal seniority. Does Jet*s EBA mandate promotion soley on data of hire? If not then those who were by-passed have no grounds for complaint. If that was in their contract and they signed it well, that's what they agreed to.
However despite the inclusion that datal seniority IS included in an EBA doesnt make it a good system or a fair one. The airline industry is to my knowledge the only one to use a promotional criteria that is not founded upon any basis of rational discrimination between potential candidates. As you said yourself; the developemnt of the skills of an airline pilot generally improves with experience. So why not use qualifications and experience as two of the dimensions that are used to assess suitability for command?
I also agree with you that time in the company is important as it is required to understand the company culture and how it operates. This should be another dimension that is used to determine promotional criteria. The whole issue is about generating a system that fairly recognises the quality of past experience and how that can be usefully harnessed to generate a quality organisation. This sort of outcome benefits the company, fairly recognises the value of past experience both inside and outside of the company of all candidates and gives the travelling public the best quality pilot at the helm. The use of such a system at Jet* could also be used with a view to engineering a better operating culture; there are no shortage of posts on this forum attesting to the cultural baggage left over from the Impulse days.
What could you possibly have against that?
Before we take off on another tangent, the victimisation of any pilot by way of a abuse of the checking or rosatering system cannot be tollerated. In fact there are laws in place (for how much longer under Howard I dont know) that protect people from victimisation. If the senario that you described were played out, the pilot involved would simply have to get copies of the other rosters, determine the average time away/weekends off/ holidays worked hours flow etc. and compare the deviation from the norm that his roster gives him/her. Any bias would be easy to determine and demonstrate a solid case of workplace harrasment.
My interpretation of the thread topic is that of promotion away from datal seniority, not of "whoring oneself". The orginal post stated that the former was what had transpired at Jet*.
I think that we all understand that in the Jet* case, the FOs who were promoted to capt. were experienced on the type and had been in the company for some time. If they were assessed to be superior candidates for the slots, then this would be to the advantage of a greater number of people than if promotion were on strick datal seniority. Does Jet*s EBA mandate promotion soley on data of hire? If not then those who were by-passed have no grounds for complaint. If that was in their contract and they signed it well, that's what they agreed to.
However despite the inclusion that datal seniority IS included in an EBA doesnt make it a good system or a fair one. The airline industry is to my knowledge the only one to use a promotional criteria that is not founded upon any basis of rational discrimination between potential candidates. As you said yourself; the developemnt of the skills of an airline pilot generally improves with experience. So why not use qualifications and experience as two of the dimensions that are used to assess suitability for command?
I also agree with you that time in the company is important as it is required to understand the company culture and how it operates. This should be another dimension that is used to determine promotional criteria. The whole issue is about generating a system that fairly recognises the quality of past experience and how that can be usefully harnessed to generate a quality organisation. This sort of outcome benefits the company, fairly recognises the value of past experience both inside and outside of the company of all candidates and gives the travelling public the best quality pilot at the helm. The use of such a system at Jet* could also be used with a view to engineering a better operating culture; there are no shortage of posts on this forum attesting to the cultural baggage left over from the Impulse days.
What could you possibly have against that?
Last edited by Ralph the Bong; 30th Sep 2005 at 05:13.
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Let me see Pete Conrad ,
ah yes, I believe the professionalism ceased on the 23rd August 1989.
............ as at one stage, Ansett was a professional airline, Impulse however................
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Well written Ralph! You summed up my thoughts far better than I could have.
My only addition is my hatred of the labelling of pilots for accepting a job offered to them, or taking the job under circumstances that 99.9% of other pilots would have done as well, especially given that person's situation (age, experience, financial position, career ambition...) at the time.
To me those who label these pilots seem to be either those fortunate enough to have been around in the good 'ole days of excellant pay, conditions and "free" (all be some of them with bond conditions) endorsements, or those who were passed over for promotion as a byproduct of the conditions of employment they signed up for and agreed to.
The global aviation economy has changed. Deal with it. I don't like but have the option to leave at any time.
(Apologies HI'er for the high horse I may have been on earlier! And yes I was a professional rugby player and still play for fun now. I think that any competitive sport leaves a person very apt to the world of industry and aviation / flying for any million of reasons).
My only addition is my hatred of the labelling of pilots for accepting a job offered to them, or taking the job under circumstances that 99.9% of other pilots would have done as well, especially given that person's situation (age, experience, financial position, career ambition...) at the time.
To me those who label these pilots seem to be either those fortunate enough to have been around in the good 'ole days of excellant pay, conditions and "free" (all be some of them with bond conditions) endorsements, or those who were passed over for promotion as a byproduct of the conditions of employment they signed up for and agreed to.
The global aviation economy has changed. Deal with it. I don't like but have the option to leave at any time.
(Apologies HI'er for the high horse I may have been on earlier! And yes I was a professional rugby player and still play for fun now. I think that any competitive sport leaves a person very apt to the world of industry and aviation / flying for any million of reasons).
Last edited by TopTup; 30th Sep 2005 at 06:45.
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Hi’er,
The various airlines I have worked for have employed datal seniority to determine promotion to command or type upgrade but none have employed seniority for rostering or days off. Ansett utilized a 9 month rotation for rostering but your date of joining was not considered.
“They can work one fella 20 hours a month, and another 100.”
This will occur in any system unless rostering still follows the archaic and uncommon practice (especially in this region) of rostering according to date of joining. The simple fact that blank lines still exist today in Qantas is evidence of very outdated work practices.
“first they stuffed the seniority system”
Could you explain how Ansett pilots achieved such a feat?
“. . . now they've set their sights on driving lower what are already miserable salaries by most other standards.”
I know of many former Ansett pilots now working for Jetstar – not one of them has ever “set their sights on driving lower salaries”. Do you really think that this is a reasonable comment to make?
Capn Bloggs,
“Because in private enterprise, the more people you have responsibility for and the more expensive the equipment you manage the more you get paid.”
In private enterprise your compensation will be driven by many factors, the most important one being the size of the workforce possessing the skill set required for the job. The number of people you “have responsibility for” and “the expense of the equipment you manage” are of little consequence to a free labor market.
“Or perhaps the John Howard should get the same pay as the Mayor of Giles”
There are many many people that possess the necessary skills to be mayor of Giles and will be compensated accordingly. There are very few people with the political capital, connections, money, party history, dedication and questionable ethics to position themselves to win the top job in parliament.
Ex mil, no.
The various airlines I have worked for have employed datal seniority to determine promotion to command or type upgrade but none have employed seniority for rostering or days off. Ansett utilized a 9 month rotation for rostering but your date of joining was not considered.
“They can work one fella 20 hours a month, and another 100.”
This will occur in any system unless rostering still follows the archaic and uncommon practice (especially in this region) of rostering according to date of joining. The simple fact that blank lines still exist today in Qantas is evidence of very outdated work practices.
“first they stuffed the seniority system”
Could you explain how Ansett pilots achieved such a feat?
“. . . now they've set their sights on driving lower what are already miserable salaries by most other standards.”
I know of many former Ansett pilots now working for Jetstar – not one of them has ever “set their sights on driving lower salaries”. Do you really think that this is a reasonable comment to make?
Capn Bloggs,
“Because in private enterprise, the more people you have responsibility for and the more expensive the equipment you manage the more you get paid.”
In private enterprise your compensation will be driven by many factors, the most important one being the size of the workforce possessing the skill set required for the job. The number of people you “have responsibility for” and “the expense of the equipment you manage” are of little consequence to a free labor market.
“Or perhaps the John Howard should get the same pay as the Mayor of Giles”
There are many many people that possess the necessary skills to be mayor of Giles and will be compensated accordingly. There are very few people with the political capital, connections, money, party history, dedication and questionable ethics to position themselves to win the top job in parliament.
Ex mil, no.
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I can remember this 'productivity' argument being raised many years ago in the Middle East. VC10 and L1011 Captains were claiming ,(and getting), much higher pay on the grounds of 'productivity'.
The facts: the VC10 or L1011 would operate one sector, (full), to LHR, the crew would take one day off and return, also full.
Alternatively they may operate an East bound service, spend a day by the pool and then return. In their four day block of, say, 650 pax I would have flown an average of four sectors a day, all full, in a 737-200 and been paid less. Compare the (then) domestic fares in the ME with the long haul fares and it was not hard to see who was the most productive, didn't work though, they held the high positions in the Pilot's Association and they got the money.
The facts: the VC10 or L1011 would operate one sector, (full), to LHR, the crew would take one day off and return, also full.
Alternatively they may operate an East bound service, spend a day by the pool and then return. In their four day block of, say, 650 pax I would have flown an average of four sectors a day, all full, in a 737-200 and been paid less. Compare the (then) domestic fares in the ME with the long haul fares and it was not hard to see who was the most productive, didn't work though, they held the high positions in the Pilot's Association and they got the money.