ATC Bias
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ATC Bias
Enroute SY-CS. Jetstar 11 miles behind us on the same route. As we commence descent we're vectored off track and slowed down. Jetstar told to speed up and given track shortening to get ahead of us. Result, instead of being a few minutes early we are 3 minutes late and burn more fuel (spoilers out most of the way down). Not the first time its happend. Could it be ATC home town bias since the jetstar boys are based in CS?
Checked with brisbane center and the sequencing was arranged by CS approach.
Checked with brisbane center and the sequencing was arranged by CS approach.
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Highly unlikely, but please give more info. What were you in? What speed were you doing and what level were both of you at. But really it sound like a clear case of somedays you are the statue and somedays you are the pigeon.
CCY
I don't believe that it is bias - just errors in programming of Maestro that caused the other aircraft to be sequenced ahead of you. Last Monday, CX (F370) was 3 miles in front of us (at F390) and Maestro for some reason gave us a sequence number ahead of CX who received radar vectors off track to let us descend on the Boree STAR and achieve a position in front for descent. The CX pilots had every reason to complain but they displayed great professionalism by just accepting the ATC instructions.
I believe that Maestro is still very flawed and should be used in a "ghosting" role until the bugs are worked out of the software.
I don't believe that it is bias - just errors in programming of Maestro that caused the other aircraft to be sequenced ahead of you. Last Monday, CX (F370) was 3 miles in front of us (at F390) and Maestro for some reason gave us a sequence number ahead of CX who received radar vectors off track to let us descend on the Boree STAR and achieve a position in front for descent. The CX pilots had every reason to complain but they displayed great professionalism by just accepting the ATC instructions.
I believe that Maestro is still very flawed and should be used in a "ghosting" role until the bugs are worked out of the software.
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they displayed great professionalism by just accepting the ATC instructions
Just "accepting" ATC instructions rather than questioning them isn't always a good thing. Human error by ATC, whilst uncommon, is not out of the question.
But nowadays anyone who questions a sequencing issue is immediately classified as a whinger or trouble-maker so most pilots shut-up.
More professional might have been if the pilot had been able to find a way to get his point across succinctly and without sounding like a whinger.
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Not a Maestro issue, it's only in ML, SY and BN; 'ghosting' ha, it's been used in anger for about 4 years... it's not a new tool, it's just got new users.
Is it better at organising the sequence, yes, does it do a better job and improve slot management, no. Maestro does help reduce late sequencing instructions, so has reduced things like 'general holding', does it pick the 'best sequence' no way; but does it lose slots, no. Remember a lot of it is politics, SY has a movement rate of 80 an hour, yet the airport could easily land 60 an hour, leaving only 20 deps, which isn't they way we do it; so there are occasionally 'artificial delays' built in to ensure that the CAP isn't broken. This of course is considered by most pilots as inefficient or useless ATCs, our hands are tied.
CCY, Not ATC bias either I'd bet, quite frankly this little duck couldn't care less who is number one. But I can say that a B717 will 'kill' a B737 in the last 120NM, don't know why but they do; even with the same IAS, something to do with keeping it steeper (higher GS); also the econ descent thing doesn't seem to be done as much in the B717; not sure whether that was perceived as a factor. Might just have been a fax pa.
I'd also say something else was in the air if you lost what appears to be 5 minutes (a couple early to 3 late)... Seems to much time if it was simply the loss of one slot.
I certainly wouldn't have gone for this option, but sometimes there is a disconnect between Arrivals the achiever of the sequence and the FLOW, the chooser of the sequence.
Is it better at organising the sequence, yes, does it do a better job and improve slot management, no. Maestro does help reduce late sequencing instructions, so has reduced things like 'general holding', does it pick the 'best sequence' no way; but does it lose slots, no. Remember a lot of it is politics, SY has a movement rate of 80 an hour, yet the airport could easily land 60 an hour, leaving only 20 deps, which isn't they way we do it; so there are occasionally 'artificial delays' built in to ensure that the CAP isn't broken. This of course is considered by most pilots as inefficient or useless ATCs, our hands are tied.
CCY, Not ATC bias either I'd bet, quite frankly this little duck couldn't care less who is number one. But I can say that a B717 will 'kill' a B737 in the last 120NM, don't know why but they do; even with the same IAS, something to do with keeping it steeper (higher GS); also the econ descent thing doesn't seem to be done as much in the B717; not sure whether that was perceived as a factor. Might just have been a fax pa.
I'd also say something else was in the air if you lost what appears to be 5 minutes (a couple early to 3 late)... Seems to much time if it was simply the loss of one slot.
I certainly wouldn't have gone for this option, but sometimes there is a disconnect between Arrivals the achiever of the sequence and the FLOW, the chooser of the sequence.
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Sorry to dissapoint you mate, but there is no ATC Bias - for a start what's in it for them?
If you think you are hard done by just give them a call and ask - as long as you can make the call within 15 minutes of landing, otherwise you will just be a distant memory.
Hate to say it, but I have done this argument a thousand times - you as the pilot will never have the big picture - it's the first thing every pilot who visits an ATC centre says.
So no conspiracy - unless some poor bastard is getting free travel in the back of a Metro to Kowanyama by doing special flow favours!
If you think you are hard done by just give them a call and ask - as long as you can make the call within 15 minutes of landing, otherwise you will just be a distant memory.
Hate to say it, but I have done this argument a thousand times - you as the pilot will never have the big picture - it's the first thing every pilot who visits an ATC centre says.
So no conspiracy - unless some poor bastard is getting free travel in the back of a Metro to Kowanyama by doing special flow favours!
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"Local" bias? Get a grip son. If CS ATC favoured 'mates' they would have sequenced Sunnies or Pixie or Aussie or National Joke ahead of you. They have been there for yonks. JQ has been there for five minutes, nowhere near enough time for the FN Queenslanders to overcome their natural aversion to Mexicans, let alone sequence them ahead of you.
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Going Boeing,
Cx was 3 miles in front for which runway? Same as you or were you for the short runway as is usually the case via Boree? Did you have any idea as to how many aircraft were in the sequence for each runway? Believe me , we don`t have any favourites but if there is a decision to be made most controllers/flows will back a domestic anyday. Ever seen a CX Airbus ( or any other Airbus for that matter ) beat a domestic from 100 miles. It just doesn`t happen. Or it didn`t until QFA started their "accountants" descents.
Maestro is a wonderful thing. Really. If your on single runway ops with 30 minutes holding for everybody. Under those conditions it will beat an experienced flow anytime in always having a trail of aircraft for approach to handle.
Any other scenarios ( // ops. config. changes, and a million other things ) it`s a piece of French merde. If we gave you each and every revised time for a feeder it comes up with you would eventually land and head straight for the phone to tear somebodys throat out. No amount of management BS will convince those of us who have to use it otherwise. Trouble is we`re stuck with it so we all have to make do.
Cx was 3 miles in front for which runway? Same as you or were you for the short runway as is usually the case via Boree? Did you have any idea as to how many aircraft were in the sequence for each runway? Believe me , we don`t have any favourites but if there is a decision to be made most controllers/flows will back a domestic anyday. Ever seen a CX Airbus ( or any other Airbus for that matter ) beat a domestic from 100 miles. It just doesn`t happen. Or it didn`t until QFA started their "accountants" descents.
Maestro is a wonderful thing. Really. If your on single runway ops with 30 minutes holding for everybody. Under those conditions it will beat an experienced flow anytime in always having a trail of aircraft for approach to handle.
Any other scenarios ( // ops. config. changes, and a million other things ) it`s a piece of French merde. If we gave you each and every revised time for a feeder it comes up with you would eventually land and head straight for the phone to tear somebodys throat out. No amount of management BS will convince those of us who have to use it otherwise. Trouble is we`re stuck with it so we all have to make do.
Boree 3
I wasn't making an accusation of bias, I was arguing a case against its existance.
The sequence for the Boree 3 STAR was a domestic aircraft for 34R, my flight for 34L, CX (A330) for 34L followed by another domestic aircraft for 34R. To achieve this sequence, CX (2000' below and 3 miles in front) was vectored east of the STAR track before rejoining the STAR in sequence behind us. I have observed this happen before which is why I believe that Maestro still has flaws and should be used in a "ghost" mode rather than as an active ATC tool.
DeBurcs
Good points. I was trying to say (in brief) that I appreciated the fact that the CX crew did not whinge over the airways.
SM4 Pirate
Thanks, I was unaware that Maestro is not used for sequencing into CNS.
haughtney 1
As well as France, Singapore ATC is well known for giving the local carrier express service at the expense of everyone else - even to the extent of training aircraft getting priority over RPT.
I wasn't making an accusation of bias, I was arguing a case against its existance.
The sequence for the Boree 3 STAR was a domestic aircraft for 34R, my flight for 34L, CX (A330) for 34L followed by another domestic aircraft for 34R. To achieve this sequence, CX (2000' below and 3 miles in front) was vectored east of the STAR track before rejoining the STAR in sequence behind us. I have observed this happen before which is why I believe that Maestro still has flaws and should be used in a "ghost" mode rather than as an active ATC tool.
DeBurcs
Good points. I was trying to say (in brief) that I appreciated the fact that the CX crew did not whinge over the airways.
SM4 Pirate
Thanks, I was unaware that Maestro is not used for sequencing into CNS.
haughtney 1
As well as France, Singapore ATC is well known for giving the local carrier express service at the expense of everyone else - even to the extent of training aircraft getting priority over RPT.
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Goeing Boeing
This perception of favouritism has been around for ever. I think you will find that it is just a matter of the traffic at each port. Naturally at CDG there are going to be more AF aircraft, more SQ at Singapore and more BA at Heathrow. Hence when you are sequenced behind someone it is likely to be a local. Therefore you get the feeling of local bias.
This perception of favouritism has been around for ever. I think you will find that it is just a matter of the traffic at each port. Naturally at CDG there are going to be more AF aircraft, more SQ at Singapore and more BA at Heathrow. Hence when you are sequenced behind someone it is likely to be a local. Therefore you get the feeling of local bias.
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CCY sam, a few minutes early to 3 late ?? shear Luxury !! 
Try arriving into PH without a light blue tail, or being in a bugsmasher...........
" XYZ reduce groundspeed by 60 kts "
"XYZ descend at 230ias "
" xyz reduce now to 210 ias " ( at 40 miles )
" XYZ reduce to final app speed " ( at 20 miles )
" Why ????? "
" you are number 3 to an F50 and a kingair "
conditions CAVOK and don't most T/props descend at around 250??
The above account is true ( and happens every other day )
and believe it is still happeniong to 717s, though not as bad.
Only the names have been changed to protect the innocent
Rant over
Try arriving into PH without a light blue tail, or being in a bugsmasher...........
" XYZ reduce groundspeed by 60 kts "
"XYZ descend at 230ias "
" xyz reduce now to 210 ias " ( at 40 miles )
" XYZ reduce to final app speed " ( at 20 miles )
" Why ????? "
" you are number 3 to an F50 and a kingair "
conditions CAVOK and don't most T/props descend at around 250??
The above account is true ( and happens every other day )
and believe it is still happeniong to 717s, though not as bad.
Only the names have been changed to protect the innocent
Rant over
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I wondered how long it would take for the Perth bashers to come out. You just don't get it do you. Have a look at David McMillan's
ATC in Western Australia page, particularly the bit on flow control and sequencing. Say the three of you had natural landing time within 1 min of each other. It follows that you (assuming you had the last landing time) have to lose at least 5 min. Why should the BE20 and F50 be vectored out of your road to lose more time when you were last in the sequence. They have just as much right as you, Captain 4 Bars in your shiny jet, to be there as you.
ATC in Western Australia page, particularly the bit on flow control and sequencing. Say the three of you had natural landing time within 1 min of each other. It follows that you (assuming you had the last landing time) have to lose at least 5 min. Why should the BE20 and F50 be vectored out of your road to lose more time when you were last in the sequence. They have just as much right as you, Captain 4 Bars in your shiny jet, to be there as you.
Last edited by willadvise; 24th Sep 2005 at 11:15.
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I think we do it (sequence) wrong. Everywhere I've worked we attempt to reduce track miles , but still give a time delay ie. the way maestro does it. If we just let them steam on in and then run extra track miles like they do in the states (simplistically put for brevity), the pilot sees the 10 a/c ahead of him and thinks you are doing a wonderful job. Check out the 60nm finals they run at some of their busier airports. Who cares if it's less efficient? Might finally put an end to all the bitching about sequencing.
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On contact with approach during descent (turbo prop) into a Regional Airport, we were given a not above speed some 20 knots below profile. Did so and then from 15 miles were given, for some unknown reason (at the timie), a heading change of around 30 degree, adviced of 35 track miles to run and asked to sight a 737 that was below, to our left and diverging further left.
Cost of 5 or so minutes and a pretty ugly approach due to being on top.
Anyway, a telephone call to APP got us their reasons, the 737 from 100 miles or thereabouts out requests a high speed descent, which apparently puts him 1 minute in front, then after being given same, slows right down very shortly after, and throws the whole planned sequence out.
At least the phone call to the controllers gave us the opportunity to hear their reasons for what seemed to us, at the time, just inexplicable.
I guess on this occasion a tradesman had the right to blame one of the tools he was working with.
Cost of 5 or so minutes and a pretty ugly approach due to being on top.
Anyway, a telephone call to APP got us their reasons, the 737 from 100 miles or thereabouts out requests a high speed descent, which apparently puts him 1 minute in front, then after being given same, slows right down very shortly after, and throws the whole planned sequence out.
At least the phone call to the controllers gave us the opportunity to hear their reasons for what seemed to us, at the time, just inexplicable.
I guess on this occasion a tradesman had the right to blame one of the tools he was working with.
Last edited by Black Maria; 24th Sep 2005 at 06:03.
ccy sam,
You should have given Cairns Approach a call for an explanation. Perhaps he was 10000ft below you and 80KT faster (which I've seen heaps of times)
Another perhaps - you click on the traffic management window to enter landing time and flow instructions and the system does a recalc and shuffles the strips as you click on it and the instructions get posted to the wrong aircraft without being picked up.
You should have given Cairns Approach a call for an explanation. Perhaps he was 10000ft below you and 80KT faster (which I've seen heaps of times)
Another perhaps - you click on the traffic management window to enter landing time and flow instructions and the system does a recalc and shuffles the strips as you click on it and the instructions get posted to the wrong aircraft without being picked up.
Nunc est bibendum
willadvise, the bias in Singapore is VERY real. I've personally been involved in about half a dozen or so instances where after being in front of a SQ aircraft, we've been vectored south (for RWY 02 coming from Aussie) and joined final at 20-30 miles when the following SQ has been given vectors in front of us and joined at 12!
There may be more aircraft and therefore you may get put behind SQ more often but when you've listened to the callsign one minute behind you for a couple of hours get the short vector, you know EXACTLY what it is!
There may be more aircraft and therefore you may get put behind SQ more often but when you've listened to the callsign one minute behind you for a couple of hours get the short vector, you know EXACTLY what it is!