RNZAF jets sold!!
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The tedium, nitpicking and irrelevance being the contribution of the execrable Mr Hanky. get over yourself, your silliness is ruining a wonderful thread... haven't laughed so much in minutes... 
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You're long on name-calling, Raw Data, short on logical arguments. 'Execrable' is very good though.
Anyway I'm off to work out how MOR's 'examples' in any way prove his contention that Iraq 'invaded Kuwait using US-made weapons and tactics. I might be some time. Thanks for the entertainment though!
Anyway I'm off to work out how MOR's 'examples' in any way prove his contention that Iraq 'invaded Kuwait using US-made weapons and tactics. I might be some time. Thanks for the entertainment though!
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Gnaden,
Men, thats who would come, like the men before them that have answered the call. To protect bullsh!t scattergun artists like you who sit behind a computer with your sanctimonious attitude, spewing forth crap, desperatly hoping some of it will be accurate and stick. The way you trivialize the Anzac's makes me sick. All you can bang on about is the defence forces, and when I tell you that NZ would front up, you have the stupidity to ask with what. You've obviously read too many Tom Clancey books and think your something of an expert, when it's plainly obvious you know nothing. Many people have tried to get the Labour gov't to change and front up, a court case was even taken against them, but to no avail.
I won't lower or debase myself to respond to any of your further meaningless goadings. Both my Grandfathers served, one didn't come home, quess what he was defending you SOB.
Men, thats who would come, like the men before them that have answered the call. To protect bullsh!t scattergun artists like you who sit behind a computer with your sanctimonious attitude, spewing forth crap, desperatly hoping some of it will be accurate and stick. The way you trivialize the Anzac's makes me sick. All you can bang on about is the defence forces, and when I tell you that NZ would front up, you have the stupidity to ask with what. You've obviously read too many Tom Clancey books and think your something of an expert, when it's plainly obvious you know nothing. Many people have tried to get the Labour gov't to change and front up, a court case was even taken against them, but to no avail.
I won't lower or debase myself to respond to any of your further meaningless goadings. Both my Grandfathers served, one didn't come home, quess what he was defending you SOB.
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OK, I confess. It's me. I bought all the A4s through a series of shady meetings with dubious intermediaries because I'm a parochial, and apparently, bludging Kiwi. I felt it was my patriotic duty to buy up these treasured remnants of yesteryear and place them back at units all over NZ where they can be used for noise generation, target drone towing, high speed parachute dropping, advanced and highly accurate topdressing depending on the spare parts we've retained, scary police observation platforms that will make any boy racer think again about outracing NZ's finest, especially with a shot across the bow. We can also use them for sky-writing when the All Blacks win or when Labour loses, we can use them for high speed VIP transport, particularly when Helen feels the need to see an inportant All Black game (one side benefit is with the two seat version, we will allow the P-in-C to eject the backseat passenger if their politics don't synchronise with the front seater!!). Actually, the myriad uses defy listing so I'll stop here suffice to say that I've borne the costs entirely on my own but if you PM me, I'll give you an account number where you can send your donations to show your appreciation of my altruism.
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You're long on name-calling, Raw Data, short on logical arguments. 'Execrable' is very good though.
Glad you liked execrable. Took me hours to find that one. I suppose I could have just used a shorter anglo-saxon term, but where's the fun in that...
Nosegear
That was quite an outburst. Don't go, it was MOR we were trying to get rid of!
The tone you've set makes it difficult to offer a polite rebuke however, irrelevantly, my direct family line extends three generations of conflict with a death in WW1, a maiming in New Guinea and two lots of permanent disability from Vietnam. It would be romantic if, as you suggest, they served to defend our right to free speech and a tif on pprune.
I would say, it is successive New Zealand voters, who have allowed their defence forces to become impotent in key areas, that has trivialized the ANZAC tradition. Few Australians would doubt, New Zealanders would "answer the call" and honour their current stated government policy of " meeting Australian alliance commitments by maintaining a close defence relationship in pursuit of common security interests". With short lead time into modern conflict, a willingness to provide barely trained but able bodies for conflict, like in WW2, is comical. It is trained professionals that are required, of which, beyond benign peacekeeping operations, your SAS is probably the only asset that is worth the logistical commitment to put into the line of fire.
Tom Clancy, incidentally, would be very imaginitive in coming up with role for NZ in any of his books.
As I've said before, give up your parochialism, disband your air force completely. What a joke, 2500 air force personnel, unneccessary training structures in place, even got yourself an Air Force band, plenty of good messes aswell. All for no combat ability and questionable other capabilities- a ridiculous waste of money!
New Zealanders wont though, any such disbandment a total admission of bludging. Wheras as now, you can pretend and bulldust your allies that you have relevant capability in place.
That was quite an outburst. Don't go, it was MOR we were trying to get rid of!
The tone you've set makes it difficult to offer a polite rebuke however, irrelevantly, my direct family line extends three generations of conflict with a death in WW1, a maiming in New Guinea and two lots of permanent disability from Vietnam. It would be romantic if, as you suggest, they served to defend our right to free speech and a tif on pprune.
I would say, it is successive New Zealand voters, who have allowed their defence forces to become impotent in key areas, that has trivialized the ANZAC tradition. Few Australians would doubt, New Zealanders would "answer the call" and honour their current stated government policy of " meeting Australian alliance commitments by maintaining a close defence relationship in pursuit of common security interests". With short lead time into modern conflict, a willingness to provide barely trained but able bodies for conflict, like in WW2, is comical. It is trained professionals that are required, of which, beyond benign peacekeeping operations, your SAS is probably the only asset that is worth the logistical commitment to put into the line of fire.
Tom Clancy, incidentally, would be very imaginitive in coming up with role for NZ in any of his books.
As I've said before, give up your parochialism, disband your air force completely. What a joke, 2500 air force personnel, unneccessary training structures in place, even got yourself an Air Force band, plenty of good messes aswell. All for no combat ability and questionable other capabilities- a ridiculous waste of money!
New Zealanders wont though, any such disbandment a total admission of bludging. Wheras as now, you can pretend and bulldust your allies that you have relevant capability in place.
Last edited by Gnadenburg; 15th Oct 2005 at 07:35.
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Gnadenburg, you've done some research, but not enough. Look at the capability currently provided by 5 Sqn (let alone that which will be available post-upgrade) and then tell me that NZ will provide "barely trained" personnel. Any knowledge of JMC and Fincastle will prove that, let alone Mirage.
Then look at the service 40 Sqn has given over several deployments and Bullseyes.
You speak from a position of ignorance and bigotry, I suggest you leave the commentary on ability to those who have the facts.
Then look at the service 40 Sqn has given over several deployments and Bullseyes.
You speak from a position of ignorance and bigotry, I suggest you leave the commentary on ability to those who have the facts.
Capt Johns
Fincastle is a canned exercise with rules designed to obtain the desired result in a very short period of time. It encourages tactics that are useless in the real world of Anti Submarine Warfare. I agree that 5 Sqn does still have real capabilities but there is no balance in the structure of the RNZAF and much of Gnads comments are both accurate and valid.
Fincastle is a canned exercise with rules designed to obtain the desired result in a very short period of time. It encourages tactics that are useless in the real world of Anti Submarine Warfare. I agree that 5 Sqn does still have real capabilities but there is no balance in the structure of the RNZAF and much of Gnads comments are both accurate and valid.
Interesting week in the drifting relationship between Australia and New Zealand. Firstly, the Kokoda Foundation think tank is proposing Australia needs well in excess of the proposed 100 new fighter-bombers for the RAAF. The extra aircraft would cover the void left by gaps in the RNZAF.
Secondly, as The Australian reports today, our involvement in the Phillipines has been cemented.
Despite the isolationist rants from Kiwis on this forum, it was pure good fortune they haven't lost people in terrorist attacks in Indonesia. Nor do they see spawning Islamic terrorist groups in countries in the region as a threat to their interests. Which not only include direct terrorism on their expats and tourists, but threats to trade routes and the economic & political stability of trading partners in southern Asia.
What will it take to get a Kiwi to lift a finger?
Whatever the catalyst it will be too late for them to lend appropriate assistance- watch them call into play ANZAC sentiments; or reassess their relationship with the United States, for anything requiring military projection to stabilise the region.
Diggers to open new terror front
John Kerin
October 19, 2005
AUSTRALIA is opening a third front in the war on terror as the Howard Government prepares to send troops, patrol boats and surveillance aircraft to The Philippines.
Defence Minister Robert Hill said last night he was negotiating a "status of forces" agreement with Manila, which would pave the way for Australia to conduct joint counter-terrorism exercises on Philippine soil.
The US is the only other country with a status of forces agreement in place.
Senator Hill told The Australian the negotiations could lead to the two countries being involved in joint ground-troop operations.
"Although it will take some time to negotiate a status of forces agreement, it would allow Australian forces and Philippines forces to exercise together in The Philippines and help build Manila's capacity to combat terrorism," Senator Hill said.
The Indo-Philippines front follows Australia's decision to send troops to fight the war on terror in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Special forces will train Filipino troops in long-range reconnaissance methods. Australian military officers are already training the Filipinos in bombsite investigation techniques.
The Philippine constitution does not allow foreign troops to exercise or conduct operations on its soil but the US has a status of forces agreement that allows both training and operations. The US maintains a team of special forces advisers to train Filipino soldiers on Mindanao and nearby islands.
Canberra is keen to step up its counter-terrorism effort with Manila in the wake of the 2002 Bali bombings investigation, which suggested Jemaah Islamiah suicide bombers were trained at Abu Sayyaf terror camps in Mindanao, in the southern Philippines.
Intelligence officials believe Mindanao may have also been used as a training base for the bombers who carried out this months's attacks in Bali, in which four Australians were among the 23 people killed.
A study published this month by US terrorism expert Zachary Abuza exposes close links between Indonesian terror groups, including JI and Laskar Jundullah, and the Philippines-based ASG and the Moro Islamic Liberation Front.
Abu Sayyaf has been involved in kidnappings, assassinations, extortion attempts, bombings and beheadings. Its hardcore membership is thought to number several hundred.
In an early sign of Australia's commitment, an RAAF AP3-C Orion will be deployed to help the Philippine Air Force conduct surveillance operations against terrorists crossing the Sulu and Celebes seas.
Two Australian patrol boats will also be sent to assist the Philippine Navy next year.
After meeting President Gloria Arroyo, Senator Hill said it was a "big step" for Manila to negotiate such an agreement with Australia.
Manila was expected to negotiate status of forces agreements with other countries in the region, including Singapore and Malaysia, in an attempt to boost counter-terrorism efforts.
"We intend to negotiate and conclude a status of forces agreement with all the members of ASEAN," Philippines Defence Minister Avelino Cruz said, adding that he hoped the accords would be completed "as quickly as possible".
Senator Hill said the agreement could extend to joint operations but the two countries had not discussed raising co-operation to that level at this stage.
Ms Arroyo thanked Australia last night for extending military assistance to her country in the fight against the terrorists in Mindanao.
Her press secretary, Ignacio Bunye, also welcomed the joint Australian-Philippine air and sea patrols.
"We must combine all the tools to fight terror -- global co-operation and grassroots vigilance ... that will facilitate the detection of terrorist cells, and keep them from executing their evil task."
Senator Hill said Australian defence officials would be observers at the next US-Philippines military joint exercise, next year, and could be expected in future to take part in trilateral exercises.
The Philippines has also expressed interest in procuring six-wheel patrol vehicles such as those used by Australian special forces and small boats to help search marshland where there are believed to be terror camps.
The Howard Government doubled counter-terrorism assistance to The Philippines to $10million last year as part of an existing counter-terrorism memorandum of understanding.
The commander of Australia's special forces, Major-General Mike Hindmarsh, was also in Mindanao last week for talks with military chiefs.
Australian Strategic Policy Institute counter-terrorism expert Aldo Borgu said last night the agreement would be a "ramping up of Australia's involvement" with The Philippines.
"Operational roles for the air force and the navy would be one thing, deploying troops on the ground even at the request of Manila would be beyond anything we've conceived so far," Mr Borgu said.
Labor defence spokesman Robert McClelland said it was pleasing to see Senator Hill increasing co-operation in Australia's own region.
"It is important that we do not let a developing quagmire in Iraq distract us while terrorists continue to operate in (Australia's) own backyard," he said.
Secondly, as The Australian reports today, our involvement in the Phillipines has been cemented.
Despite the isolationist rants from Kiwis on this forum, it was pure good fortune they haven't lost people in terrorist attacks in Indonesia. Nor do they see spawning Islamic terrorist groups in countries in the region as a threat to their interests. Which not only include direct terrorism on their expats and tourists, but threats to trade routes and the economic & political stability of trading partners in southern Asia.
What will it take to get a Kiwi to lift a finger?
Whatever the catalyst it will be too late for them to lend appropriate assistance- watch them call into play ANZAC sentiments; or reassess their relationship with the United States, for anything requiring military projection to stabilise the region.
Diggers to open new terror front
John Kerin
October 19, 2005
AUSTRALIA is opening a third front in the war on terror as the Howard Government prepares to send troops, patrol boats and surveillance aircraft to The Philippines.
Defence Minister Robert Hill said last night he was negotiating a "status of forces" agreement with Manila, which would pave the way for Australia to conduct joint counter-terrorism exercises on Philippine soil.
The US is the only other country with a status of forces agreement in place.
Senator Hill told The Australian the negotiations could lead to the two countries being involved in joint ground-troop operations.
"Although it will take some time to negotiate a status of forces agreement, it would allow Australian forces and Philippines forces to exercise together in The Philippines and help build Manila's capacity to combat terrorism," Senator Hill said.
The Indo-Philippines front follows Australia's decision to send troops to fight the war on terror in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Special forces will train Filipino troops in long-range reconnaissance methods. Australian military officers are already training the Filipinos in bombsite investigation techniques.
The Philippine constitution does not allow foreign troops to exercise or conduct operations on its soil but the US has a status of forces agreement that allows both training and operations. The US maintains a team of special forces advisers to train Filipino soldiers on Mindanao and nearby islands.
Canberra is keen to step up its counter-terrorism effort with Manila in the wake of the 2002 Bali bombings investigation, which suggested Jemaah Islamiah suicide bombers were trained at Abu Sayyaf terror camps in Mindanao, in the southern Philippines.
Intelligence officials believe Mindanao may have also been used as a training base for the bombers who carried out this months's attacks in Bali, in which four Australians were among the 23 people killed.
A study published this month by US terrorism expert Zachary Abuza exposes close links between Indonesian terror groups, including JI and Laskar Jundullah, and the Philippines-based ASG and the Moro Islamic Liberation Front.
Abu Sayyaf has been involved in kidnappings, assassinations, extortion attempts, bombings and beheadings. Its hardcore membership is thought to number several hundred.
In an early sign of Australia's commitment, an RAAF AP3-C Orion will be deployed to help the Philippine Air Force conduct surveillance operations against terrorists crossing the Sulu and Celebes seas.
Two Australian patrol boats will also be sent to assist the Philippine Navy next year.
After meeting President Gloria Arroyo, Senator Hill said it was a "big step" for Manila to negotiate such an agreement with Australia.
Manila was expected to negotiate status of forces agreements with other countries in the region, including Singapore and Malaysia, in an attempt to boost counter-terrorism efforts.
"We intend to negotiate and conclude a status of forces agreement with all the members of ASEAN," Philippines Defence Minister Avelino Cruz said, adding that he hoped the accords would be completed "as quickly as possible".
Senator Hill said the agreement could extend to joint operations but the two countries had not discussed raising co-operation to that level at this stage.
Ms Arroyo thanked Australia last night for extending military assistance to her country in the fight against the terrorists in Mindanao.
Her press secretary, Ignacio Bunye, also welcomed the joint Australian-Philippine air and sea patrols.
"We must combine all the tools to fight terror -- global co-operation and grassroots vigilance ... that will facilitate the detection of terrorist cells, and keep them from executing their evil task."
Senator Hill said Australian defence officials would be observers at the next US-Philippines military joint exercise, next year, and could be expected in future to take part in trilateral exercises.
The Philippines has also expressed interest in procuring six-wheel patrol vehicles such as those used by Australian special forces and small boats to help search marshland where there are believed to be terror camps.
The Howard Government doubled counter-terrorism assistance to The Philippines to $10million last year as part of an existing counter-terrorism memorandum of understanding.
The commander of Australia's special forces, Major-General Mike Hindmarsh, was also in Mindanao last week for talks with military chiefs.
Australian Strategic Policy Institute counter-terrorism expert Aldo Borgu said last night the agreement would be a "ramping up of Australia's involvement" with The Philippines.
"Operational roles for the air force and the navy would be one thing, deploying troops on the ground even at the request of Manila would be beyond anything we've conceived so far," Mr Borgu said.
Labor defence spokesman Robert McClelland said it was pleasing to see Senator Hill increasing co-operation in Australia's own region.
"It is important that we do not let a developing quagmire in Iraq distract us while terrorists continue to operate in (Australia's) own backyard," he said.
Last edited by Gnadenburg; 21st Oct 2005 at 00:25.
