OzJet Start Date Keeps Slipping
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the accident rate seems to be related to the age of the pilots
Aeroplanes don't get better by experience, they get worse.
Pilots, I hope, get better by experience.
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Qantas, rivals in off-peak fare fight
Steve Creedy, Aviation writer
September 13, 2005
THE battle for domestic business travellers is hotting up with Qantas introducing new discount fares aimed at luring passengers to the front of the plane during off-peak periods.
News of the Qantas "D-class" business fares emerged as Ozjet confirmed it would operate eight return flights each business day between Brisbane and Melbourne when it started flying later this year.
Virgin Blue is also ramping up its efforts to lure corporate customers with new technology that allows travel agents and big accounts to link directly into its reservations system.
The new Qantas fares are being tested on several routes and mirror a strategy adopted by the airline on its international routes.
Qantas normally sells a Melbourne-Sydney business class fares for $576 and a full economy ticket for $373. The new fare will sell for $411 - less than $40 above full economy - for flights during the middle of the day, when business travel demand is at its lowest ebb.
Routes taking part in the trial are Sydney-Melbourne, Sydney-Brisbane, Adelaide-Melbourne, Adelaide-Canberra, Sydney-Canberra, Melbourne-Canberra, Melbourne-Hobart and Sydney-Hobart.
"We've selected a cross-section of business routes to trial it," said Qantas executive general manager John Borghetti.
"The intention is to, firstly, stimulate demand in the off-peak period and, secondly, to stimulate some upsell from economy.
"The other issue here, of course, is that as we've grown and upgraded our fleet - the off-peak business class services have more seats."
Mr Borghetti said Qantas was optimistic the small price gap between full economy and the new fares would prove attractive to business travellers.
Asked whether moves by Virgin Blue and Ozjet on the business travel market had influenced the decision to introduce the new fares, Mr Borghetti said: "We're busy trying to run our own airline."
Ozjet management remains optimistic it can start selling tickets by the middle of next month for a launch in late October or early November.
The airline plans to initially operate 94 flights a week on the Sydney-Melbourne run and wants to add Melbourne-Adelaide from the first week of February with Canberra and Brisbane next on its radar.
"Basically from the middle of January, we'll have one plane a month arriving," chief executive Hans van Pelt said.
Mr van Pelt said the decision of Ozjet owner Paul Stoddart to sell his Minardi Formula One racing team was unlikely to have any immediate effect on the airline.
The Minardi boss sold the team to Red Bull for a rumoured $US35 million ($45 million) but Mr van Pelt said the money to launch Ozjet was already in place.
"Certainly Paul's got a good return and, I guess, down the track we could certainly use it for something, but that's up to him," he said.
Steve Creedy, Aviation writer
September 13, 2005
THE battle for domestic business travellers is hotting up with Qantas introducing new discount fares aimed at luring passengers to the front of the plane during off-peak periods.
News of the Qantas "D-class" business fares emerged as Ozjet confirmed it would operate eight return flights each business day between Brisbane and Melbourne when it started flying later this year.
Virgin Blue is also ramping up its efforts to lure corporate customers with new technology that allows travel agents and big accounts to link directly into its reservations system.
The new Qantas fares are being tested on several routes and mirror a strategy adopted by the airline on its international routes.
Qantas normally sells a Melbourne-Sydney business class fares for $576 and a full economy ticket for $373. The new fare will sell for $411 - less than $40 above full economy - for flights during the middle of the day, when business travel demand is at its lowest ebb.
Routes taking part in the trial are Sydney-Melbourne, Sydney-Brisbane, Adelaide-Melbourne, Adelaide-Canberra, Sydney-Canberra, Melbourne-Canberra, Melbourne-Hobart and Sydney-Hobart.
"We've selected a cross-section of business routes to trial it," said Qantas executive general manager John Borghetti.
"The intention is to, firstly, stimulate demand in the off-peak period and, secondly, to stimulate some upsell from economy.
"The other issue here, of course, is that as we've grown and upgraded our fleet - the off-peak business class services have more seats."
Mr Borghetti said Qantas was optimistic the small price gap between full economy and the new fares would prove attractive to business travellers.
Asked whether moves by Virgin Blue and Ozjet on the business travel market had influenced the decision to introduce the new fares, Mr Borghetti said: "We're busy trying to run our own airline."
Ozjet management remains optimistic it can start selling tickets by the middle of next month for a launch in late October or early November.
The airline plans to initially operate 94 flights a week on the Sydney-Melbourne run and wants to add Melbourne-Adelaide from the first week of February with Canberra and Brisbane next on its radar.
"Basically from the middle of January, we'll have one plane a month arriving," chief executive Hans van Pelt said.
Mr van Pelt said the decision of Ozjet owner Paul Stoddart to sell his Minardi Formula One racing team was unlikely to have any immediate effect on the airline.
The Minardi boss sold the team to Red Bull for a rumoured $US35 million ($45 million) but Mr van Pelt said the money to launch Ozjet was already in place.
"Certainly Paul's got a good return and, I guess, down the track we could certainly use it for something, but that's up to him," he said.
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Most of Australia's aircraft are old. The qantas 747 that is parked at longreach had flown over 90,000 hours.
Most of our military aircraft are as old as, the GA fleet.
Virgin has the young aeroplanes.
But the pilots are getting younger.
And the accident rate seems to be related to the age of the pilots, not the aeroplanes.Remember the TV commercial." Young drivers are the most skilled. They are also the most killed".
Those who skimp on maintenance do much better with new aircraft. For a while.
Most of our military aircraft are as old as, the GA fleet.
Virgin has the young aeroplanes.
But the pilots are getting younger.
And the accident rate seems to be related to the age of the pilots, not the aeroplanes.Remember the TV commercial." Young drivers are the most skilled. They are also the most killed".
Those who skimp on maintenance do much better with new aircraft. For a while.
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Legal Counsel, you should get some FACT serum in that coffee you drink before implying that Ozjet pilots are inexperienced. Ozjet set minimum experience at 5000 hours and 1000 jet time for Captains and has hired people with an average of triple that. To get an interview, F/Os had at least 1500 multi and 500 turbine and again the average was about triple that. All those selected got a grilling in a Metro simulator.
Future Captains won't get a look in unless they have recent 737 command time, and the policy will be to promote from within when F/Os get the 5000 total/1000 jet. Meantime, plenty of grey hair in the cockpit, I can assure you.
Future Captains won't get a look in unless they have recent 737 command time, and the policy will be to promote from within when F/Os get the 5000 total/1000 jet. Meantime, plenty of grey hair in the cockpit, I can assure you.
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Are we all going to gloss around like a pack of PC lezzos or is one of us finally going to say it?
Who cares how much grey hair is involved? Who cares about fleet age, types, fuel burns blah blah blah.
With Dicko flogging up and down the J curve all day, every day at times that suit every "important" business meeting; at prices that can be propped by the other 200 punters aft of the snob divider: Does anyone really think it has a chance?
Sadly loads for the first couple of weeks will comprise the fatties that have a QF grudge and can't fit in a VB seat.
"Enthusiast" types will have a crack to get a free sticker to put it on the fridge next to the Compass stickers.
The remainder will be journos, freebies, F1 fans and retirees that have just "experienced" The Ghan and now looking for a new adventure to boast about at bingo.
With close friends preparing to fly for this mob, please prove me wrong. Make me eat my words. Just please dont make me pick up the financial and emotional pieces that big promises, big boys with big toys often don't deliver on!
Best wishes to those at the coalface, I can't begin to imagine the obstacles you face.
Brother Muzzy.
Who cares how much grey hair is involved? Who cares about fleet age, types, fuel burns blah blah blah.
With Dicko flogging up and down the J curve all day, every day at times that suit every "important" business meeting; at prices that can be propped by the other 200 punters aft of the snob divider: Does anyone really think it has a chance?
Sadly loads for the first couple of weeks will comprise the fatties that have a QF grudge and can't fit in a VB seat.
"Enthusiast" types will have a crack to get a free sticker to put it on the fridge next to the Compass stickers.
The remainder will be journos, freebies, F1 fans and retirees that have just "experienced" The Ghan and now looking for a new adventure to boast about at bingo.
With close friends preparing to fly for this mob, please prove me wrong. Make me eat my words. Just please dont make me pick up the financial and emotional pieces that big promises, big boys with big toys often don't deliver on!
Best wishes to those at the coalface, I can't begin to imagine the obstacles you face.
Brother Muzzy.
.... I've got a Compass sticker!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Absolutely Right
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Gidday Gaunty - good to know you are still interested in aviation.
Br.Muzzy wrote:
"Just please don't make me pick up the financial and emotional pieces that big promises, big boys with big toys often don't deliver on!" Really.
Everyone interviewed who was in gainful employment was advised to desist with their application if they were risk averse.
Some actually took this on board and did withdraw.
No promises were made. Meantime the big boy with his 'toy' is in the process of giving a bunch of turbo prop pilots a crack at their first jet at no cost to them. A whole lot better deal than what is on offer at that other (very) big boy's outfit, or even that Aussie icon's regionals.
For obvious reasons I can not enter into any further debate about the business plan etc, other than to acknowledge that only a fool would believe a start up airline would have no financial and competitive hurdles to overcome. But give the man a break - he runs a successful operation in the UK with 747s and 737s, which is more than any of us can claim to have done.
Br.Muzzy wrote:
"Just please don't make me pick up the financial and emotional pieces that big promises, big boys with big toys often don't deliver on!" Really.
Everyone interviewed who was in gainful employment was advised to desist with their application if they were risk averse.
Some actually took this on board and did withdraw.
No promises were made. Meantime the big boy with his 'toy' is in the process of giving a bunch of turbo prop pilots a crack at their first jet at no cost to them. A whole lot better deal than what is on offer at that other (very) big boy's outfit, or even that Aussie icon's regionals.
For obvious reasons I can not enter into any further debate about the business plan etc, other than to acknowledge that only a fool would believe a start up airline would have no financial and competitive hurdles to overcome. But give the man a break - he runs a successful operation in the UK with 747s and 737s, which is more than any of us can claim to have done.
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Whatever people say about Stoddart he was very successful and profitable with his 1-11 fleet when everyone was saying the aircraft were too old. I think you'll find there were at least as old as the 737-200s when he started operating in 1994.
It' easy to snipe and be clever when your on someone's payroll - but have you ever tried putting $20 million where your mouth is?
It' easy to snipe and be clever when your on someone's payroll - but have you ever tried putting $20 million where your mouth is?
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True about Stoddarts previous success with the BAC 1-11, but in this case we are talking about business class passengers that both need and want to go from SYD-MEL reliably, at the same time knowing that if there is a breakdown they may get on another flight shortly.
Also what about connections elsewhere??
A seemless service when dealing with business class pax is mandatory.
Also what about connections elsewhere??
A seemless service when dealing with business class pax is mandatory.
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Beginning of the end ---- mmmmm.....
Well, apologies for not getting on line sooner, I fell asleep at my desk after the pub Friday night. Amazing how your keyboard can be so firmly imprinted in your forehead. 
Anyway, two guys and my boss from the *** newspaper were talking last night that the latest is that Ozjet cannot get its slots at Sydney and will have to reduce it's flights. And listen to this one; apparently it is going to be a major cut back to just one or two flights.
Look, Stoddart obviously knows how to make a buck but that is also the very thing that makes a person take more risks and is often their undoing. But that is not to say you are not allowed to fail. As long as you are an honest person you will always get support.
Look, take the guy who has started that Gold Airways thing, you have got to give him credit for being able to get as far as he has with little or no help, and from what I can gather, the wrath of PPRUNE's readers. However, take a leaf out of his book and you can see he that guy has brilliant capacity that only really needs money to make it work and I am sure in time he will overcome that too. There is a real leader of innovation. I don't quite have $20M dollars but if I were a punter in aviation, I would put my money on Gold Airways because from what I can see, it's a potential winner.
Even so I do feel fuzzy (possibly the effects of Elephant Beer) about Qantas' continued push with the Jetstar product. I just think they are setting the scene for more airlines to get up and challenging them. How Ozjet will fair in that environment is anyone's guess but I think it will not fair well unless it does something dramatic like run a two class service.
But while Stoddart makes money out of junk jets, (and I might add that I learnt from my boy friend that I can afford to by a second hand 737-200 - not that it is any of his business how much I have in my term deposit) he needs to have good returns to replace them. It's not unlike what ValueJet (now deceased) did in the US and it can yield good cashflows for fleet renewal. And basically you can keep doing this and run a successful operation.
Ooh must get a panadol.
Anyway, two guys and my boss from the *** newspaper were talking last night that the latest is that Ozjet cannot get its slots at Sydney and will have to reduce it's flights. And listen to this one; apparently it is going to be a major cut back to just one or two flights.
Look, Stoddart obviously knows how to make a buck but that is also the very thing that makes a person take more risks and is often their undoing. But that is not to say you are not allowed to fail. As long as you are an honest person you will always get support.
Look, take the guy who has started that Gold Airways thing, you have got to give him credit for being able to get as far as he has with little or no help, and from what I can gather, the wrath of PPRUNE's readers. However, take a leaf out of his book and you can see he that guy has brilliant capacity that only really needs money to make it work and I am sure in time he will overcome that too. There is a real leader of innovation. I don't quite have $20M dollars but if I were a punter in aviation, I would put my money on Gold Airways because from what I can see, it's a potential winner.
Even so I do feel fuzzy (possibly the effects of Elephant Beer) about Qantas' continued push with the Jetstar product. I just think they are setting the scene for more airlines to get up and challenging them. How Ozjet will fair in that environment is anyone's guess but I think it will not fair well unless it does something dramatic like run a two class service.
But while Stoddart makes money out of junk jets, (and I might add that I learnt from my boy friend that I can afford to by a second hand 737-200 - not that it is any of his business how much I have in my term deposit) he needs to have good returns to replace them. It's not unlike what ValueJet (now deceased) did in the US and it can yield good cashflows for fleet renewal. And basically you can keep doing this and run a successful operation.
Ooh must get a panadol.
Evertonian
Perhaps he should've stuck to the secondary airport plan. Moorabbin to Bankstown perhaps, obviously without 732's! Lotsa travellers in Melb's Eastern suburbs knocking on his door I imagine.
He won't get anywhere competing on a level playing field...he should've picked another field!
He won't get anywhere competing on a level playing field...he should've picked another field!
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What a load of bollox.
Legal Counsel - whatever you were drinking you obviously smoked it as well. "Gold Airways is a winner" - my arse! That little pearler demonstrated to me, for the first time, that you're mainlining some crap and your brain is rottting. Exactly what detail have you seen of the idiot's plan, or is it just the high level "I'm planning to start a new domestic full service airline" that got you excited? About 6 months ago the idiot had an outline of his fleet on his website that included A350's A380's and B777's (hmm sounds awfully like my 4 year old's "one of them, one of them, one of them" grab as he sits at the airport!
And by the way, as for Stoddart;s track record. Did I miss something? Take a look at European for chrissakes. He sold out when it was on its way down the gurgler to 2 shareholders that tried unsuccessfully to stop it going bankrupt..voila back on the scene comes "Arfur Steptoe" and picks it up for a song (I agree, he's good at buying junk) telling everyone how he is going to save it - and didn't. Once again, as with Branson, check the other forums on Prune - not many supporters of "the cheeky Aussie".
Finally, with all due respect to their CP - you're an idiot mate. An out and out idiot. Just cuz u can fly 'em. does mean the punters will. Try and breath reliability into an ageing...lets be honest.. an irrelevant, out of date, past date, heap of scrap metal that is no longer welcome in the usual dumping ground of old models, the 3rd world.
You all spend so much time on this forum complaining about the deterioration of aviation but when you see a player come along that wants to exploit you, the market, and his own scrap metal yard, you ignore your gut feel and experience and say "good on ya for having a go" because you're afraid someone will chastise you for cutting down tall poppies.
Do none of you realise that a cynical exploitation of an opportunity with a half-baked solution that has maybe a 1:1000000 chance of success, for all the reasons some of you are brave enough to voice, is actually threatening what little stability you have in this aviation market. Whilst he may start this crappy model, the outcome will be failure and he will blame everyone and sundry for it, just like he did in Formula 1 (thank God he and his mobile chicanes are out of that now). In the meantime he will do further damage to an already tenuous market.
CASA and the DoT should raise the standard of acceptable aviation operations; we should not, in 2005, be introducing a 30+ year old aircraft model. Someone, somewhere should consider the risk profile of such ventures, if not in safety, then in the context of the welfare of the travelling Australian public who will have to spend many hours at airporst waiting for Stoddart's crowd to find a wigget for his dinosaurs that has to be shipped in from Addis Abbabba because no-one, not even Boeing, can remember what a 737-200 is except for Kalib, Steptoe's distant cousin, who has a house in downtown AA made from scrap metal, from, you guessed it, a crappy old vintage machine.
Legal Counsel - whatever you were drinking you obviously smoked it as well. "Gold Airways is a winner" - my arse! That little pearler demonstrated to me, for the first time, that you're mainlining some crap and your brain is rottting. Exactly what detail have you seen of the idiot's plan, or is it just the high level "I'm planning to start a new domestic full service airline" that got you excited? About 6 months ago the idiot had an outline of his fleet on his website that included A350's A380's and B777's (hmm sounds awfully like my 4 year old's "one of them, one of them, one of them" grab as he sits at the airport!
And by the way, as for Stoddart;s track record. Did I miss something? Take a look at European for chrissakes. He sold out when it was on its way down the gurgler to 2 shareholders that tried unsuccessfully to stop it going bankrupt..voila back on the scene comes "Arfur Steptoe" and picks it up for a song (I agree, he's good at buying junk) telling everyone how he is going to save it - and didn't. Once again, as with Branson, check the other forums on Prune - not many supporters of "the cheeky Aussie".
Finally, with all due respect to their CP - you're an idiot mate. An out and out idiot. Just cuz u can fly 'em. does mean the punters will. Try and breath reliability into an ageing...lets be honest.. an irrelevant, out of date, past date, heap of scrap metal that is no longer welcome in the usual dumping ground of old models, the 3rd world.
You all spend so much time on this forum complaining about the deterioration of aviation but when you see a player come along that wants to exploit you, the market, and his own scrap metal yard, you ignore your gut feel and experience and say "good on ya for having a go" because you're afraid someone will chastise you for cutting down tall poppies.
Do none of you realise that a cynical exploitation of an opportunity with a half-baked solution that has maybe a 1:1000000 chance of success, for all the reasons some of you are brave enough to voice, is actually threatening what little stability you have in this aviation market. Whilst he may start this crappy model, the outcome will be failure and he will blame everyone and sundry for it, just like he did in Formula 1 (thank God he and his mobile chicanes are out of that now). In the meantime he will do further damage to an already tenuous market.
CASA and the DoT should raise the standard of acceptable aviation operations; we should not, in 2005, be introducing a 30+ year old aircraft model. Someone, somewhere should consider the risk profile of such ventures, if not in safety, then in the context of the welfare of the travelling Australian public who will have to spend many hours at airporst waiting for Stoddart's crowd to find a wigget for his dinosaurs that has to be shipped in from Addis Abbabba because no-one, not even Boeing, can remember what a 737-200 is except for Kalib, Steptoe's distant cousin, who has a house in downtown AA made from scrap metal, from, you guessed it, a crappy old vintage machine.
