Please make a bit of noise if flying into CBR early
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Orstralia
Posts: 297
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Please make a bit of noise if flying into CBR early
Sleep-in, so plane flies on
02sep05
An air traffic controller who slept in has been blamed for a passenger plane being forced to circle over Canberra waiting for the air traffic tower to open.
The controller's alarm apparently failed to work on Wednesday morning and the air traffic control tower at Canberra International Airport was not opened at the usual time of 5:30am.
It opened 20 minutes later at 5:50am, and the delay caused a Qantas Boeing 737-800 flight from Perth to circle over Canberra airport for 20 minutes.
The plane, carrying 68 passengers, finally landed at 6:12am, 12 minutes after its scheduled arrival time.
Airservices Australia, which operates air traffic control operations across the country, said an investigation had been launched into the incident.
A spokesman for the government-owned body said two senior controllers would now be rostered on to open the tower at Canberra airport as a result of those circumstances.
"There's always more than one person in the tower. It's just that we have to have a senior controller in to open the tower," the spokesman said.
"There are going to be two senior controllers in the tower."
The spokesman said Tuesday's incident did not pose a safety threat to passengers or the aircraft.
"The controller slept in. In other industries people sleep in. It's a fact of life," he said.
Qantas said it was not concerned for the safety of its passengers at any time.
02sep05
An air traffic controller who slept in has been blamed for a passenger plane being forced to circle over Canberra waiting for the air traffic tower to open.
The controller's alarm apparently failed to work on Wednesday morning and the air traffic control tower at Canberra International Airport was not opened at the usual time of 5:30am.
It opened 20 minutes later at 5:50am, and the delay caused a Qantas Boeing 737-800 flight from Perth to circle over Canberra airport for 20 minutes.
The plane, carrying 68 passengers, finally landed at 6:12am, 12 minutes after its scheduled arrival time.
Airservices Australia, which operates air traffic control operations across the country, said an investigation had been launched into the incident.
A spokesman for the government-owned body said two senior controllers would now be rostered on to open the tower at Canberra airport as a result of those circumstances.
"There's always more than one person in the tower. It's just that we have to have a senior controller in to open the tower," the spokesman said.
"There are going to be two senior controllers in the tower."
The spokesman said Tuesday's incident did not pose a safety threat to passengers or the aircraft.
"The controller slept in. In other industries people sleep in. It's a fact of life," he said.
Qantas said it was not concerned for the safety of its passengers at any time.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Orstralia
Posts: 297
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I posted here what was published (undated) as a general news item in the News Ltd 'Adelaide Advertiser' on 2/9/05 p 33.
I think it's a different incident than the one you are referring to. The earlier GPWS incident (24/7/04) seems to have involved the same Perth-Canberra flight QF 720, but slightly different facts. See
http://www.atsb.gov.au/aviation/occu...ail.cfm?ID=659
PPRuNE got a rap on Australian ABC radio in the earlier incident:
http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/con...4/s1204732.htm
"ALISON CALDWELL: Details of the incident are contained on a professional pilots website.
It claims the crew and passengers were just seconds from disaster when the plane's warning system was activated.
Alan Stray is with the Australian Transport Safety Bureau, he says the website has grossly exaggerated the incident... ...CASA's Peter Gibson says the website doesn't tell the whole story.
PETER GIBSON: The website is known as the pilots rumour network, and some of the information there is spot on and some of the information is just that, rumours.
Now, some of the information on this particular incident I think is probably reasonably close to the mark. Some of the other information is suggesting that the aircraft was only metres away from the mountaintops at the Tinderry Ranges I think is a bit exaggerated.
I think it's a different incident than the one you are referring to. The earlier GPWS incident (24/7/04) seems to have involved the same Perth-Canberra flight QF 720, but slightly different facts. See
http://www.atsb.gov.au/aviation/occu...ail.cfm?ID=659
PPRuNE got a rap on Australian ABC radio in the earlier incident:
http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/con...4/s1204732.htm
"ALISON CALDWELL: Details of the incident are contained on a professional pilots website.
It claims the crew and passengers were just seconds from disaster when the plane's warning system was activated.
Alan Stray is with the Australian Transport Safety Bureau, he says the website has grossly exaggerated the incident... ...CASA's Peter Gibson says the website doesn't tell the whole story.
PETER GIBSON: The website is known as the pilots rumour network, and some of the information there is spot on and some of the information is just that, rumours.
Now, some of the information on this particular incident I think is probably reasonably close to the mark. Some of the other information is suggesting that the aircraft was only metres away from the mountaintops at the Tinderry Ranges I think is a bit exaggerated.
Last edited by RJM; 3rd Sep 2005 at 12:11.
Whenever I am on an early start I have three separate devices to wake me up (I don't call it an "alarm" clock - I call it the "opportunity" clock!), one is mains powered, one battery powered and the third is my mobile phone.
If none of them function, well I dont cater for triple failures!
In the industry I am currently working in we have a system where if a unit fails to open on time (we have to signal an adjacent unit when we open) the adjacent unit will report this to a centralised control in order they can take steps to find out why the unit has not opened on time (like call the person who is supposed to be there on the phone) and/or call out the relief.
If none of them function, well I dont cater for triple failures!
In the industry I am currently working in we have a system where if a unit fails to open on time (we have to signal an adjacent unit when we open) the adjacent unit will report this to a centralised control in order they can take steps to find out why the unit has not opened on time (like call the person who is supposed to be there on the phone) and/or call out the relief.
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 337
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Outcomes?
* Sacked
* Demoted
* Fined
* Formally warned
* Counselled
* Transferred
* Commended
* Promoted
* Paid performance bonus
* Accelerated advancement to management
* None of the above
* Sacked
* Demoted
* Fined
* Formally warned
* Counselled
* Transferred
* Commended
* Promoted
* Paid performance bonus
* Accelerated advancement to management
* None of the above
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 121
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
* Sacked
* Demoted
* Fined
* Formally warned
* Counselled
* Transferred
* Commended
* Promoted
* Paid performance bonus
* Accelerated advancement to management
* None of the above
* Demoted
* Fined
* Formally warned
* Counselled
* Transferred
* Commended
* Promoted
* Paid performance bonus
* Accelerated advancement to management
* None of the above
The controller sued the employer for causing him enough tiredness to fail to wake up to his alarm and miss work.*
*This is a joke.
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 337
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Freedom7
Are you saying?
* Air traffickers at CBR don't have sufficient rest time between shifts;
* Even with reasonable rest periods between shifts, air traffickers at CBR are exposed to excessive workplace stress;
* When rostered for an early start, air traffickers at CBR should go to bed earlier;
* The employer of air traffickers at Canberra should refund the cost of purchasing reliable alarm clocks for staff rostered on early starts;
* All of the above;
* Some of the above; or
* None of the above.
Are you saying?
* Air traffickers at CBR don't have sufficient rest time between shifts;
* Even with reasonable rest periods between shifts, air traffickers at CBR are exposed to excessive workplace stress;
* When rostered for an early start, air traffickers at CBR should go to bed earlier;
* The employer of air traffickers at Canberra should refund the cost of purchasing reliable alarm clocks for staff rostered on early starts;
* All of the above;
* Some of the above; or
* None of the above.
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 337
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Recommended for the Order of the Brass Razoo in the next Australia Day Honours list?
I had the misfortune to be in Canberra last week. While going about my lawful occasions, I noticed a report in the local journal of record to the effect that there are now to be two controllers (a senior and mid ranking person, whatever that means) rostered for the early start in the Canberra tower.
Why does it now require two people to do the work that one used to do in issuing an early morning landing clearance? Will the additional salary costs will be passed on to airlines via increases in landing charges? Will any such increase be passed on to the mug punter?
And all this because some one can’t get out of the scratcher to get to work on time!
I had the misfortune to be in Canberra last week. While going about my lawful occasions, I noticed a report in the local journal of record to the effect that there are now to be two controllers (a senior and mid ranking person, whatever that means) rostered for the early start in the Canberra tower.
Why does it now require two people to do the work that one used to do in issuing an early morning landing clearance? Will the additional salary costs will be passed on to airlines via increases in landing charges? Will any such increase be passed on to the mug punter?
And all this because some one can’t get out of the scratcher to get to work on time!
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Glass Gumtree
Posts: 74
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Typical Solicitors......
Argus
"Some of the above".
Do not speculate. Fact - Fatigue is a killer, and one day you will be able to form litigation when it is found to be the cause of x accident.
You may find that the "Non Senior Controller" was not rated to "issue an early morning landing clearance". Someone please correct me if this is not the case.
Tell me you have never been late to Court............
"Some of the above".
Do not speculate. Fact - Fatigue is a killer, and one day you will be able to form litigation when it is found to be the cause of x accident.
You may find that the "Non Senior Controller" was not rated to "issue an early morning landing clearance". Someone please correct me if this is not the case.
Tell me you have never been late to Court............
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 337
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Freedom7
I've been late for Court once. For my lack of punctuality, I had a costs order made against me personally. Never been late again.
I agree that fatigue can cause or contribute to workplace accidents. But you adduce no evidence of fatigue in this case. Perhaps you'd like to elaborate on, say, the rostering practices at CBR, any recent excessive overtime/extension of shifts, lack of sufficient rest time between shifts, frequency of movements etc; then state which, if not all are to be found in the current CBR tower working environment; and why you say all of these provide a causal link to the controller being late for work on the day concerned. If there's an OH&S (or worse) issue here, let's have it aired and dealt with, promptly.
I'm not sure of the relevance of your comments about a non senior controller being unrated for aerodrome control. How many controllers are required for the early morning/late finishes? How many movements are there in the first/last hour of operation that justify the staffing numbers? Why is an unrated person rostered for early starts/late finishes if he/she can't issue landing (or take off) clearances? If the rated controller doesn't turn up, what does the unrated person then do? What's his/her value added contribution - turn the runway lighting on and be paid penalty rates?
And if an aircraft on which I'm travelling to Canberra for an early arrival has to be diverted elsewhere because there's no rated controller available during scheduled opening hours; and I'm late for Court in Canberra as a consequence and have another costs order made against me personally; will AirServices Australia pay it on my behalf or reimburse me because one of its staff couldn't resist the call of the cot on a cold Canberra morn?
Forgive me, there's a porcine formation in echelon port outside my window!
I've been late for Court once. For my lack of punctuality, I had a costs order made against me personally. Never been late again.
I agree that fatigue can cause or contribute to workplace accidents. But you adduce no evidence of fatigue in this case. Perhaps you'd like to elaborate on, say, the rostering practices at CBR, any recent excessive overtime/extension of shifts, lack of sufficient rest time between shifts, frequency of movements etc; then state which, if not all are to be found in the current CBR tower working environment; and why you say all of these provide a causal link to the controller being late for work on the day concerned. If there's an OH&S (or worse) issue here, let's have it aired and dealt with, promptly.
I'm not sure of the relevance of your comments about a non senior controller being unrated for aerodrome control. How many controllers are required for the early morning/late finishes? How many movements are there in the first/last hour of operation that justify the staffing numbers? Why is an unrated person rostered for early starts/late finishes if he/she can't issue landing (or take off) clearances? If the rated controller doesn't turn up, what does the unrated person then do? What's his/her value added contribution - turn the runway lighting on and be paid penalty rates?
And if an aircraft on which I'm travelling to Canberra for an early arrival has to be diverted elsewhere because there's no rated controller available during scheduled opening hours; and I'm late for Court in Canberra as a consequence and have another costs order made against me personally; will AirServices Australia pay it on my behalf or reimburse me because one of its staff couldn't resist the call of the cot on a cold Canberra morn?
Forgive me, there's a porcine formation in echelon port outside my window!
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Glass Gumtree
Posts: 74
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Better late than never...
Argus
Merly making a general statment in relation to Fatigue.
We do not know, the exact reason as to why the controller slept in. YSCB Tower rostering principal's are not my forte, however not being H24, I would say they are better, fatigue wise, than other H24 Tower's. Maybe other's can shed light here.
FYI. Generally a Tower consists of several positions.
Generally speaking only, a person who singularly holds all ratings in all positions is the Senior Tower Controller.
It is possible that the controller on station at the time was not rated to provide an ADC service. What does he do? Yes ring the other rostered controller and then implement staff contingency plans, whatever that may be.
I think that you will find that it was the airline's SOP which restricted the acfts landing at that time without an ADC service.
If you believe that the ATS provider or the Airline have not provided you with the service that you have paid for - then I am in complete agreement with you - you should be provided with reimbursement.
Merly making a general statment in relation to Fatigue.
We do not know, the exact reason as to why the controller slept in. YSCB Tower rostering principal's are not my forte, however not being H24, I would say they are better, fatigue wise, than other H24 Tower's. Maybe other's can shed light here.
FYI. Generally a Tower consists of several positions.
I noticed a report in the local journal of record to the effect that there are now to be two controllers (a senior and mid ranking person, whatever that means) rostered for the early start in the Canberra tower.
It is possible that the controller on station at the time was not rated to provide an ADC service. What does he do? Yes ring the other rostered controller and then implement staff contingency plans, whatever that may be.
I think that you will find that it was the airline's SOP which restricted the acfts landing at that time without an ADC service.
If you believe that the ATS provider or the Airline have not provided you with the service that you have paid for - then I am in complete agreement with you - you should be provided with reimbursement.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Bleak City
Posts: 229
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Personally I think we should hang the bastard for sleeping in, I mean, really, I don't know how the bastard can live with himself. About the same as a lawyer guaranteeing you a 85% chance of winning in court, then walking away with his big fat fee after your 'unforseen circumstance' loss.
For chri$t sake, a bloke slept in???? Never happened to you before???? The pilot had probably landed at 3000 mbz's at night in his/her previous GA job and couldn't this time? Anyone who's a regular pruner knows the answer to this.
And you wonder why the staffing was 'increased' hello, hello, hello, we're talking about CANBERRA here. And relax fellas, it wont cost you too much more, the sc@b management at airport services will put some poor bastard with all the FPC ratings in there that's being paid at journeyman rates
For chri$t sake, a bloke slept in???? Never happened to you before???? The pilot had probably landed at 3000 mbz's at night in his/her previous GA job and couldn't this time? Anyone who's a regular pruner knows the answer to this.
And you wonder why the staffing was 'increased' hello, hello, hello, we're talking about CANBERRA here. And relax fellas, it wont cost you too much more, the sc@b management at airport services will put some poor bastard with all the FPC ratings in there that's being paid at journeyman rates
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Adrift upon the tides of fate
Posts: 1,840
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Argus
You seem to be taking the tack that an ATC is an ATC is an ATC.
The job is learned over time; you do not just 'get an ATC license' then trot off and do anything. You start at the bottom and work your way up, learning the different parts of the job along the way. So, whilst issuing a landing clearance to a single aircraft in the early morning may be very simple, the legal authority to do so stems from having a license that calls for being able to handle lots of traffic at a peak time. The licenses are issued for particular validations on positions, not for numbers of aircraft able to be worked.
It's a bit like a QC going into court with 3 consulting solicitors in trail. Isn't the QC able to go into court on his own? Moreover, if the QC is the best type of counsel, why have solicitors? Fair enough analogy?
You seem to be taking the tack that an ATC is an ATC is an ATC.
The job is learned over time; you do not just 'get an ATC license' then trot off and do anything. You start at the bottom and work your way up, learning the different parts of the job along the way. So, whilst issuing a landing clearance to a single aircraft in the early morning may be very simple, the legal authority to do so stems from having a license that calls for being able to handle lots of traffic at a peak time. The licenses are issued for particular validations on positions, not for numbers of aircraft able to be worked.
It's a bit like a QC going into court with 3 consulting solicitors in trail. Isn't the QC able to go into court on his own? Moreover, if the QC is the best type of counsel, why have solicitors? Fair enough analogy?