Jetstar to consume Jetconnect.
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Jetstar to consume Jetconnect.
I was speaking with a Jetstar checkie last week.I was told that Jetstar WILL consume (not just Christchurch routes ) most International Jetconnect and possibly some Australian Airlines routes.From anyone inside , Is this the case ?
If so any word on what will happen to the pilots displaced (made redundant) by these changes ?
If so any word on what will happen to the pilots displaced (made redundant) by these changes ?
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Having read the interview with Peter Gregg yesterday, one may reasonably assume the same could be said for Jetstar consuming Australian in its' entirety...how and when remains to be seen, of course.
I somehow don't believe QF will give a damn about who is made redundant by any of these changes. We are all but pawns on a playset at board level - and sadly, that's all we will ever be regarded as.
I somehow don't believe QF will give a damn about who is made redundant by any of these changes. We are all but pawns on a playset at board level - and sadly, that's all we will ever be regarded as.
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For pilots, the "do nothing"option is rarely useful. I know over recent years various posters here have been warning not just AIPA but the industry as a whole, of what was coming. I know it is not PC to mention 1989 but the truth is there were good lessons learned there. Not the least being that without a scope clause, any workplace agreement is much weakened.
I hope, not that it specially affects me right now, except in my heart, that now, with all that has happened in the last few years, and it has been an order of magnitude change for QF pilots especially, that the heads of AIPA, AFAP, IPG, AFAA etc could get together and figure out how to best use the cards they DO hold to stem the tide.
A strong union, decent growth, job opportunities and decent wages are NOT necessarly incompatible except in the eyes of blinkered management and frightened pilots.
Pretending that nothing worse can happen will ensure that it does. A few years ago someone here posted a rumour that QF would get the 777 but that it would be flown by contract pilots, not mainline AIPA. Got laughed off the boards I recall. Who's laughing now?
I hope, not that it specially affects me right now, except in my heart, that now, with all that has happened in the last few years, and it has been an order of magnitude change for QF pilots especially, that the heads of AIPA, AFAP, IPG, AFAA etc could get together and figure out how to best use the cards they DO hold to stem the tide.
A strong union, decent growth, job opportunities and decent wages are NOT necessarly incompatible except in the eyes of blinkered management and frightened pilots.
Pretending that nothing worse can happen will ensure that it does. A few years ago someone here posted a rumour that QF would get the 777 but that it would be flown by contract pilots, not mainline AIPA. Got laughed off the boards I recall. Who's laughing now?
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These bottom dwellers i.e. Impulse/ Jet Star Pilots had a chance to improve there conditions and therefore, all airline pilots at that end of the scale. However these losers choose to continue the race to the bottom and at the same time making fellow pilots redundant.
Why because they where told if they sign they will get the Tasman flying.
Let me see ??
A. make fellow pilots redundant and fly across the Tasman or
B. Improve my conditions.
You guesed it A, a typical Impulse pilot choice.
Buts its OK because the Jit Connict guys will get a job with them after getting through the typical bull**** interview and then pay $30,000.00 for a endorsement, then go on FO wages $75,000.00 pa + super.
You Impulse/Jet star pilots are really a bunch of low life scum.
Why because they where told if they sign they will get the Tasman flying.
Let me see ??
A. make fellow pilots redundant and fly across the Tasman or
B. Improve my conditions.
You guesed it A, a typical Impulse pilot choice.
Buts its OK because the Jit Connict guys will get a job with them after getting through the typical bull**** interview and then pay $30,000.00 for a endorsement, then go on FO wages $75,000.00 pa + super.
You Impulse/Jet star pilots are really a bunch of low life scum.
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Me thinks you chaps are off track somewhat.
QF are wise in having these separate companies/brands for many reasons. Now they are established, I don't think they will be combining them anytime soon. Even if they show a loss, they serve a greater purpose in the big scheme of things.
QF are wise in having these separate companies/brands for many reasons. Now they are established, I don't think they will be combining them anytime soon. Even if they show a loss, they serve a greater purpose in the big scheme of things.
Expanding,
So, would you go on strike in support of better pay for Jetstar? Would you make a financial contibution to a fighting fund to improve their position?
So, would you go on strike in support of better pay for Jetstar? Would you make a financial contibution to a fighting fund to improve their position?
Pretty ****ty around if you're a CHC based Capt/Fo with Jetconnect.
Good luck to all those affected.....There's one silver lining get the A320 rating and p--s off to Dragon air.
Good luck to all those affected.....There's one silver lining get the A320 rating and p--s off to Dragon air.
Wizofoz,
Would you do the same for the NJS guys who were so well looked after by Jetstar blokes when it came to negotiating(?) their new positions.
Jezus! About time everyone had a look at the where qantas is driving the profession as a whole. I realise that everyone has mouths to feed however this continual 'What did you do for us.' is the most unproductive component out there.
Similar to the crap in the back of Oz Aviation this month regarding upcoming airline interviews.
Would you do the same for the NJS guys who were so well looked after by Jetstar blokes when it came to negotiating(?) their new positions.
Jezus! About time everyone had a look at the where qantas is driving the profession as a whole. I realise that everyone has mouths to feed however this continual 'What did you do for us.' is the most unproductive component out there.
Similar to the crap in the back of Oz Aviation this month regarding upcoming airline interviews.
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The QF pilots have every right to feel as though their wages and conditions are under seige from the rest of us, just as the rest of us have the right to feel extremely angry that our wages and conditions are very sub-standard.
There is one common theme my friends. Our employers are playing us off against each other and to date is has worked. It is time to wake up and get smart.
I promise you one thing. No amount of sledging in these forums will EVER resolve ANYTHING. When we all wake up to the fact we need to make ONE united pilot body, the sooner all this self destruction will be diluted/stopped.
We don't have to be militant. Just very smart.
There is one common theme my friends. Our employers are playing us off against each other and to date is has worked. It is time to wake up and get smart.
I promise you one thing. No amount of sledging in these forums will EVER resolve ANYTHING. When we all wake up to the fact we need to make ONE united pilot body, the sooner all this self destruction will be diluted/stopped.
We don't have to be militant. Just very smart.
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"a fighting fund" wtf is "a fighting fund "?
A lot of the A320 J* pilots are crawlbacks from the 1989 bust up.
They're experts at replacing other pilots with themselves, and I've got good reason to think you are also one of those Mr WizofOz.
Destroying the QF pilots' conditions is NOT going to improve yours'.
A lot of the A320 J* pilots are crawlbacks from the 1989 bust up.
They're experts at replacing other pilots with themselves, and I've got good reason to think you are also one of those Mr WizofOz.
Destroying the QF pilots' conditions is NOT going to improve yours'.
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Propaganda.
Just having an A320 endorsement does not automatically give you a job with Dragonair as many ex AN A320 drivers have found out (much to their distaste).
The interview process at Dragonair is extensive and as a plus for the final panel interview, if any of the interviewers have any doubts at all you dont get the job.
Having an Airbus endorsement will however make you marketable for Qatar Airways, Etihad, Emirates or many European operators.
Just having an A320 endorsement does not automatically give you a job with Dragonair as many ex AN A320 drivers have found out (much to their distaste).
The interview process at Dragonair is extensive and as a plus for the final panel interview, if any of the interviewers have any doubts at all you dont get the job.
Having an Airbus endorsement will however make you marketable for Qatar Airways, Etihad, Emirates or many European operators.
Destroying the QF pilots' conditions is NOT going to improve yours'.
The attitude expressed in your post, however, is precisley what I was getting at. Your opinion, like Mr Expanding, is that the J* pilots should have turned down the jobs offered to them because it puts donward pressure on YOUR T&Cs. The obvious answer is to, as a united group, use your industrial power to bring their deal up to equity with yours.
This would involve you and your ilk putting your money where your mouth is, rather than expecting everyone else in the world to look after your interests for you.
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You seem to suffer from the Jiminy Cricket Syndrome of "The whole world owes ME a living" WizofOz.
I (and my fellow pilots) am not a charitable organisation. Any money spent will be used to protect MY interest, and to fight my fight for my conditions.
J* pilots (and you) had better learn to fight YOUR own fight rather than white anting other pilots conditions and then turning around and saying "If you want to keep your conditions, you'll have to improve ours."
What sort of human parasite thinks like that? Obviously there ARE some.
The J* pilot group needs to have their flying fenced, it's as simple as that.
I (and my fellow pilots) am not a charitable organisation. Any money spent will be used to protect MY interest, and to fight my fight for my conditions.
J* pilots (and you) had better learn to fight YOUR own fight rather than white anting other pilots conditions and then turning around and saying "If you want to keep your conditions, you'll have to improve ours."
What sort of human parasite thinks like that? Obviously there ARE some.
The J* pilot group needs to have their flying fenced, it's as simple as that.
Ronnie is right.
A few years ago, there was expectation amongst J* pilots that their pay would be pulled up by the better conditions at VB & QF. Now the stark reality is they are being taken for fools by management and their conditions will probably deteriorate.
I am noting a realisation amongst J*pilots, that they will have to stand up all by themselves.
But there is still the paradox of the biggest payrise and improvement of conditions a J* F/O will receive, is the transition to Captain- 40% pay increase and more professional satisfaction.
So, as long as there are F/O's at J* on 70K a year paying off a 30K endorsement, undercutting QF and others for flying will continue to be voracious! Can you blame them?
A few years ago, there was expectation amongst J* pilots that their pay would be pulled up by the better conditions at VB & QF. Now the stark reality is they are being taken for fools by management and their conditions will probably deteriorate.
I am noting a realisation amongst J*pilots, that they will have to stand up all by themselves.
But there is still the paradox of the biggest payrise and improvement of conditions a J* F/O will receive, is the transition to Captain- 40% pay increase and more professional satisfaction.
So, as long as there are F/O's at J* on 70K a year paying off a 30K endorsement, undercutting QF and others for flying will continue to be voracious! Can you blame them?
Last edited by Gnadenburg; 26th Aug 2005 at 05:46.
Any money spent will be used to protect MY interest, and to fight my fight for my conditions.
So the deal is you will look after number one, then bitch and moan if someone else who is ALSO looking after number one adversley affects you?
The J* guys don't owe YOU a living. As long as you and yours feel as expressed above, why the hell wouldn't they do whatever it took to get all the Jobs/Routes/Prommotions they can? YOU are setting the field as an adverserial, us and them contest, and the work will go to the lowest bidder.
The J* pilot group needs to have their flying fenced, it's as simple as that.
See above...
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"Who did what to whom, when, how and why" will get us all exactly nowhere. Nor will the "Do nothing" option.
There is a model which worked before, with great success and it is why those of us who've been through it call for a single pilot union, as MANY posts here have done.
The AFAP was largely funded by the 1% from airline members, orginally QF, TN, AN, EWA and IPEC. Then QF left for many reasons, some of which have come back to bite them. But I digress.
That 1% and the "Bank of Days" (1 day leave donated per pilot per year) plus the Mutual Benefit Fund (MBF-self funding and self administered) gave a wonderful critical mass of both money and talent. This was used to DIRECTLY SUBSIDIZE a wider group of interests. AFAP industrial officers routinely and diligently worked to improve conditions in GA and regionals, even when the % union coverage was almost negligible. That's where GA super came from, as well as support for 2 pilot ops and minimum conditions in all sorts of areas. The AFAP Technical Committee gave a great deal of help to the wider aviation community. The AFAP offices provided ready advice to any member, advice and support usually available nowhere else. The Technical library in Albert Road had great resources. The AFAP always had access to at least as good internal advice and competence as the operators, DCA/CASA whatever and kept through IFALPA and ICAO etc) right up to date on what the rest of the world was doing.
The whole idea was that at a minimal cost (1% of salary and the 1 day leave per year) we could all gradually build a better industry. Pull the lesser paid people up by their bootstraps. Even the monthly Branch Committee meetings, Executives and Conventions gave less experienced or less well resourced groups access to the "big table", to travel and accomodation most non-major pilots could never have funded by themselves.
If in all the years I was in the AFAP prior to 1989 the only requirement had been to look after AN and TN members, we could have done it on half the annual subs.
Now translate that into todays world. With a single pilot union, offices in ML, SY and BN, those with "more"could help those with "less" in myriad ways. Not by stopping their growth...when the QF pilots gave up the chance to have a Scope Clause and left the AFAP that option fell way off the table and we all paid the price. But by subsidizing negotiators and legal advice, becoming as knowledgeable about airline costs as the operators are...so that things like paying for your own rating could be properly weighed against the idea of longer careers, lower turnover, better applicants, better quality control.
This has nothing to do with turning back the clock to pre'89. It does have a lot to do with seeing how legitimate competitive forces and legitimate self interest can, with the benefit of history's lessons, be blended together to build something a lot more substantial than the sum of the parts.
It would be fairly clear I hope that I never crossed, nor thought of crossing a line back those years ago. But of all the lines I heard from those who did, that have in spades, come back to haunt them and all of us, the most bitterly ironic was "what has the union ever done for me?". Look around us...we can see what NOT having a single union has done for us....isn't it time to give a single union another try?
Woomera, shouldn't this topic be merged now with "Stop the Hatred"? Maybe there is actually some critical mass developing that could push us closer toward a less divided pilot community. I hope so.
There is a model which worked before, with great success and it is why those of us who've been through it call for a single pilot union, as MANY posts here have done.
The AFAP was largely funded by the 1% from airline members, orginally QF, TN, AN, EWA and IPEC. Then QF left for many reasons, some of which have come back to bite them. But I digress.
That 1% and the "Bank of Days" (1 day leave donated per pilot per year) plus the Mutual Benefit Fund (MBF-self funding and self administered) gave a wonderful critical mass of both money and talent. This was used to DIRECTLY SUBSIDIZE a wider group of interests. AFAP industrial officers routinely and diligently worked to improve conditions in GA and regionals, even when the % union coverage was almost negligible. That's where GA super came from, as well as support for 2 pilot ops and minimum conditions in all sorts of areas. The AFAP Technical Committee gave a great deal of help to the wider aviation community. The AFAP offices provided ready advice to any member, advice and support usually available nowhere else. The Technical library in Albert Road had great resources. The AFAP always had access to at least as good internal advice and competence as the operators, DCA/CASA whatever and kept through IFALPA and ICAO etc) right up to date on what the rest of the world was doing.
The whole idea was that at a minimal cost (1% of salary and the 1 day leave per year) we could all gradually build a better industry. Pull the lesser paid people up by their bootstraps. Even the monthly Branch Committee meetings, Executives and Conventions gave less experienced or less well resourced groups access to the "big table", to travel and accomodation most non-major pilots could never have funded by themselves.
If in all the years I was in the AFAP prior to 1989 the only requirement had been to look after AN and TN members, we could have done it on half the annual subs.
Now translate that into todays world. With a single pilot union, offices in ML, SY and BN, those with "more"could help those with "less" in myriad ways. Not by stopping their growth...when the QF pilots gave up the chance to have a Scope Clause and left the AFAP that option fell way off the table and we all paid the price. But by subsidizing negotiators and legal advice, becoming as knowledgeable about airline costs as the operators are...so that things like paying for your own rating could be properly weighed against the idea of longer careers, lower turnover, better applicants, better quality control.
This has nothing to do with turning back the clock to pre'89. It does have a lot to do with seeing how legitimate competitive forces and legitimate self interest can, with the benefit of history's lessons, be blended together to build something a lot more substantial than the sum of the parts.
It would be fairly clear I hope that I never crossed, nor thought of crossing a line back those years ago. But of all the lines I heard from those who did, that have in spades, come back to haunt them and all of us, the most bitterly ironic was "what has the union ever done for me?". Look around us...we can see what NOT having a single union has done for us....isn't it time to give a single union another try?
Woomera, shouldn't this topic be merged now with "Stop the Hatred"? Maybe there is actually some critical mass developing that could push us closer toward a less divided pilot community. I hope so.
