Jetstar to Europe & USA
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Col Walter E Kurtz, I belive AIPA has just invested the members funds in upgrading the 44 Gallon drum of well used vaseline for a 44 Gallon drum of silky smooth KY Jelly.
Additionally, as they are rather flush with membership funds, they have just purchased an industrial strengh set of anal widening styrups. This is to help reduce the pain.
Remember. The sun is always shining. (Albeit a tad smelly)
Additionally, as they are rather flush with membership funds, they have just purchased an industrial strengh set of anal widening styrups. This is to help reduce the pain.
Remember. The sun is always shining. (Albeit a tad smelly)
Join Date: Aug 2001
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Sunfish,
Agreed, stuck in a tube with a crowd of bogans for hours on end = not a fun trip.
But it depends on how much the punter is willing to pay.
Let's take a trip to Rome.
If you're a J-cls punter, then fine - go BA/QF to LHR & backtrack, or SQ, or EK, or myriad others. The company's probably paying both money and time anyway so you're not worried. But is there really THAT much business going on between Australia and Italy to justify several hundred premium seats each way?
But, as Ryanair and Southwest and many others are proving, the VFR (visiting friends and rellies) ie. leisure market is HUGE and they don't want to pay premium prices. I first went to Rome in my uni holidays and price was the big thing for me (think I would've flown AZ if I'd had the choice??!!) - so it comes down to a choice between being trapped for hours with a bunch of bogans (of which I was arguably one) or not going. If Grandpa Giuseppe wants to go back and see the Old Country one last time and bogan class is all he can afford, then it suits him DTTG.
The article mentions that this is being looked at for 'leisure' routes. Exactly why the A380 blurb mentions the possibility of 'one-class configurations'. Now that is scary, but it suits some markets (but the idea of 800 Kath-and-Kims all hitting some third-world customs facility at once is enough to give one hives... ). I went LHR-Antigua a few years back in a specially-configged 777: 10 abreast, pygmy pitch. No P and only 4 rows of J-cls up front (old seats). 'twas a zoo but it got the punters where they wanted to go (holiday destination) cheaply.
It may not end up being Jet* which runs such flights, but it will happen. Carriers have been looking for years at how to spread the LCC model to L/H; this is just an extension of that process.
Agreed, stuck in a tube with a crowd of bogans for hours on end = not a fun trip.
But it depends on how much the punter is willing to pay.
Let's take a trip to Rome.
If you're a J-cls punter, then fine - go BA/QF to LHR & backtrack, or SQ, or EK, or myriad others. The company's probably paying both money and time anyway so you're not worried. But is there really THAT much business going on between Australia and Italy to justify several hundred premium seats each way?
But, as Ryanair and Southwest and many others are proving, the VFR (visiting friends and rellies) ie. leisure market is HUGE and they don't want to pay premium prices. I first went to Rome in my uni holidays and price was the big thing for me (think I would've flown AZ if I'd had the choice??!!) - so it comes down to a choice between being trapped for hours with a bunch of bogans (of which I was arguably one) or not going. If Grandpa Giuseppe wants to go back and see the Old Country one last time and bogan class is all he can afford, then it suits him DTTG.
The article mentions that this is being looked at for 'leisure' routes. Exactly why the A380 blurb mentions the possibility of 'one-class configurations'. Now that is scary, but it suits some markets (but the idea of 800 Kath-and-Kims all hitting some third-world customs facility at once is enough to give one hives... ). I went LHR-Antigua a few years back in a specially-configged 777: 10 abreast, pygmy pitch. No P and only 4 rows of J-cls up front (old seats). 'twas a zoo but it got the punters where they wanted to go (holiday destination) cheaply.
It may not end up being Jet* which runs such flights, but it will happen. Carriers have been looking for years at how to spread the LCC model to L/H; this is just an extension of that process.
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Taildragger67,
charter airlines have over the years operated from the UK to Australia using 767s in full multi stop, cattle class 29 inch configuration.
People I have spoken to who have used them over the years have invariably said "never again".
Low cost/ no frills may work for short journeys but the jury is still out on longhaul ops and dixon wants to be the first to roll the dice.............
I don't think people will buy it.
charter airlines have over the years operated from the UK to Australia using 767s in full multi stop, cattle class 29 inch configuration.
People I have spoken to who have used them over the years have invariably said "never again".
Low cost/ no frills may work for short journeys but the jury is still out on longhaul ops and dixon wants to be the first to roll the dice.............
I don't think people will buy it.
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Would have to agree Jettlager...The established full service carriers are doing very well at what they do.
I'm not convinced that buying breakfast and dinner not to mention water on a twelve hour flight is going to work. With DVT still ringing in the ears of Airline Execs, I think that they will need to move carefully on this phenomena.
I'm not convinced that buying breakfast and dinner not to mention water on a twelve hour flight is going to work. With DVT still ringing in the ears of Airline Execs, I think that they will need to move carefully on this phenomena.
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There's a lot to happen to this idea before any of us can make an educated call on what EXACTLY will happen.
For example, presuming that Jetstar do the long haul thing (using AO crews, or whatever), the flights affect both inbound and outbound passengers.
Currently, on Jetstar Asia (and other charter carriers in Europe), you can get away with 'pay as you go' food and drinks on flights around the 5 hour mark.
With the Jetstar trans tasman ops, like Jetstar asia, the seats are pre allocated, along with international-to-international interlining of bags. So already, you have 2 key differences to the domestic product.
Where to from here for JQ/AO, etc. could mean any number of things.
I would FIRMLY HOPE that, whatever the outcome on long haul services, that the AO service is seen as the 'benchmark' (ie. free food and drink) with 'value added services' (ie. DigEPlayer units, etc) at the discretion of the traveller.
I don't believe, for a minute, that JQ could get away with half of what occurs domestically on an 11 hour sector, for example. Not only would outbound travellers revolt, but you'd lose even more from inbound groups organised by tour wholesalers, who consider inflight product to be just as important as price (depending on the market of course).
We shall see what we shall see.
For example, presuming that Jetstar do the long haul thing (using AO crews, or whatever), the flights affect both inbound and outbound passengers.
Currently, on Jetstar Asia (and other charter carriers in Europe), you can get away with 'pay as you go' food and drinks on flights around the 5 hour mark.
With the Jetstar trans tasman ops, like Jetstar asia, the seats are pre allocated, along with international-to-international interlining of bags. So already, you have 2 key differences to the domestic product.
Where to from here for JQ/AO, etc. could mean any number of things.
I would FIRMLY HOPE that, whatever the outcome on long haul services, that the AO service is seen as the 'benchmark' (ie. free food and drink) with 'value added services' (ie. DigEPlayer units, etc) at the discretion of the traveller.
I don't believe, for a minute, that JQ could get away with half of what occurs domestically on an 11 hour sector, for example. Not only would outbound travellers revolt, but you'd lose even more from inbound groups organised by tour wholesalers, who consider inflight product to be just as important as price (depending on the market of course).
We shall see what we shall see.
Join Date: Jan 2001
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Jettlager, whilst you are true the European Charter Airline 767 might be a bit squeesy they did however assist in bringing the price of a flight to UK down considerably. In fact the likes of Britannia served the route for 10+ years and whilst the seat pitch may have been tight, the fares were cheap. Give and take I think you call it. If you check the web the UK Charter airlines like Britannia are back again this summer so there must be some form of business case for their return.
Don't get me wrong, there is no chance of me taking the tribe to the UK on holiday in a ballooning Jetstar A330 full of 300+ ferals when I can book with numerous full service carriers. The Airline Industry and Staff travel options help make that choice easier.
Like to see GD heading off for a business meeting in Rome in the Jetstar A330 rather than First Class on the QF1 !
Don't get me wrong, there is no chance of me taking the tribe to the UK on holiday in a ballooning Jetstar A330 full of 300+ ferals when I can book with numerous full service carriers. The Airline Industry and Staff travel options help make that choice easier.
Like to see GD heading off for a business meeting in Rome in the Jetstar A330 rather than First Class on the QF1 !
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The JQ cabin is much more comfortable than the QF economy section.
The seats are wider and the pitch is more. If I had to fly long haul in economy I would much rather be in the JQ cabin.
JQ International is all allocated seating, so the difference between QF economy and JQ Int or AO for that matter is that JQ is much more comfortable and roomy than the others, but you buy your meals.
JQ Int will be a hit with the punters because of the cost saving and the higher comfort in economy and a hit with the owners because it will make them money instead of just breaking even on the marginal routes.
Thats why JQ get the gigs and AO is not.
The seats are wider and the pitch is more. If I had to fly long haul in economy I would much rather be in the JQ cabin.
JQ International is all allocated seating, so the difference between QF economy and JQ Int or AO for that matter is that JQ is much more comfortable and roomy than the others, but you buy your meals.
JQ Int will be a hit with the punters because of the cost saving and the higher comfort in economy and a hit with the owners because it will make them money instead of just breaking even on the marginal routes.
Thats why JQ get the gigs and AO is not.
Join Date: Aug 2003
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Chocks, easy solution to your problem which I am sure the Rocket Scientists at DOTARS have already come up with.............just check the flight crew even more thoroughly, maybe a full body cavity search each time you sign on 
Also, can someone help me out, I not very good at maths coz I are a pilot:
QF hedged 90% of fuel at $49US, price has only recently got as high as $65US.
Domestic surcharge of $20 is about to increase to $26, thats 30% ( i think )
So........
10% of QF fuel gone up by 30% over how ever many months and good old GD puts ALL ticket surcharges up by 30% overnight.
Anyone else see what I am getting at
Also, can someone help me out, I not very good at maths coz I are a pilot:
QF hedged 90% of fuel at $49US, price has only recently got as high as $65US.
Domestic surcharge of $20 is about to increase to $26, thats 30% ( i think )
So........
10% of QF fuel gone up by 30% over how ever many months and good old GD puts ALL ticket surcharges up by 30% overnight.
Anyone else see what I am getting at
Last edited by cunninglinguist; 24th Aug 2005 at 23:17.
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ur2
You seemed to be very emotionally in love with JQ. I think you should read into the bigger picture. JQ just like AO is a TOOL to undercut QF mainline. AO has 2 pilot operated 767-300. They cant fly longer than about 8ish hours. So places like BOM, HNL, HKT etc doesn't fit the current model as AO needs a second officer. As for trans tasman QF mainlain is already serving it as full service carrier. JQ is a no frills alternative.
You seemed to be very emotionally in love with JQ. I think you should read into the bigger picture. JQ just like AO is a TOOL to undercut QF mainline. AO has 2 pilot operated 767-300. They cant fly longer than about 8ish hours. So places like BOM, HNL, HKT etc doesn't fit the current model as AO needs a second officer. As for trans tasman QF mainlain is already serving it as full service carrier. JQ is a no frills alternative.
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Mid Assist,
So whats your point ? If AO got the gig they would be getting the larger type also, but they did'nt because they are not as competative as JQ, unfortunately it will probably be the undoing for AO,
The result for the staff is probably not all that bad .
Pilots back to mainline. Cabin crew offered jobs at JQ or mainline and groundstaff could probably be absorbed into either opn.
So whats your point ? If AO got the gig they would be getting the larger type also, but they did'nt because they are not as competative as JQ, unfortunately it will probably be the undoing for AO,
The result for the staff is probably not all that bad .
Pilots back to mainline. Cabin crew offered jobs at JQ or mainline and groundstaff could probably be absorbed into either opn.
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And engineering outsourced.
You pilots cant see with your heads up your arses', the biggest saving in any airline operation is to cut back on engineering. This whole thing is about cutting the guts out of Aus. Engineering, and bring down safety standards, Risk management, catch word while aircraft are new you might be able to get away with some reduction but as they get older and fuel goes up, and CEO's move on what is left is an airline that has been stripped clean and can't recover to maintain its aging fleet.
Just ask Ansett
You pilots cant see with your heads up your arses', the biggest saving in any airline operation is to cut back on engineering. This whole thing is about cutting the guts out of Aus. Engineering, and bring down safety standards, Risk management, catch word while aircraft are new you might be able to get away with some reduction but as they get older and fuel goes up, and CEO's move on what is left is an airline that has been stripped clean and can't recover to maintain its aging fleet.
Just ask Ansett
Join Date: Jan 1999
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Hey hangar,
You touched on the magic words....RISK MANAGEMENT..
Just heard it again recently from management pilot refering to fuel policy. Weighing up Risk against Cost.. I just shake my head and fall asleep.
I think the concept has been taken too far and needs to be reigned in. Iv'e seen some pilots do strange things to comply with these policies including taking less than flight plan fuel.. Yup, less than F/P.. Awesome, but true.
You touched on the magic words....RISK MANAGEMENT..
Just heard it again recently from management pilot refering to fuel policy. Weighing up Risk against Cost.. I just shake my head and fall asleep.
I think the concept has been taken too far and needs to be reigned in. Iv'e seen some pilots do strange things to comply with these policies including taking less than flight plan fuel.. Yup, less than F/P.. Awesome, but true.
Join Date: May 2000
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UR2 wat a lot of crap. I seem to remember that the 717 went from 104 seats in QF link config seat pitch to 125 in JQ . You state that JQ seat pitch is more than QF and that the cabin is more comfortable. Personally I think you must be on Crystal meth if you think Jet* is better than QF. I think your comments are so outrageous your obviously joking or Jet* management.
Now the facts on pitch
QF Y- 31”
DJ Y-31”
Jet Star- 30”
You can find the info on Skytraks website
. You state that JQ seat pitch is more than QF and that the cabin is more comfortable. Personally I think you must be on Crystal meth if you think Jet* is better than QF. I think your comments are so outrageous your obviously joking or Jet* management. Now the facts on pitch
QF Y- 31”
DJ Y-31”
Jet Star- 30”
You can find the info on Skytraks website
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Didn't Alitalia and a few other major European carriers who flew into Australia have a 29" seat pitch?
Not arguing FOR a pitch decrease, but Jetstar definitely isn't alone in offering reduced pitch on its' flights. Just take a look at any of the major European charter carriers, whom have been operating successfully with ludicrous seat pitch and configs (2-4-2 config in a 767!)
As an aside, flew Emirates SYD-AKL a few weeks ago. 777 configuration was 3-4-3 - same as a 747, and yet the cabin not as wide!
My previous 777 flight before my EK experience was on AA from LHR-LAX. The config a year ago was 2-5-2...1 less seat across compared to EK. Sure, you had the dreaded middle seat...but nowhere near as cramped as EK!
Not only that, but AA's seat pitch was BY FAR and away better than EK's offering in Economy. Just as well it was Trans Tasman and not long haul to SIN or BKK.
NOW I see how EK report such strong profits! Furthermore, their inflight service wasn't anything special. Bear in mind that the crews on JQ are only capable of doing so much with the goods provided. Service is more than just the product!
Advertising and marketing can do WONDER's for any company!
Not arguing FOR a pitch decrease, but Jetstar definitely isn't alone in offering reduced pitch on its' flights. Just take a look at any of the major European charter carriers, whom have been operating successfully with ludicrous seat pitch and configs (2-4-2 config in a 767!)
As an aside, flew Emirates SYD-AKL a few weeks ago. 777 configuration was 3-4-3 - same as a 747, and yet the cabin not as wide!
My previous 777 flight before my EK experience was on AA from LHR-LAX. The config a year ago was 2-5-2...1 less seat across compared to EK. Sure, you had the dreaded middle seat...but nowhere near as cramped as EK!
Not only that, but AA's seat pitch was BY FAR and away better than EK's offering in Economy. Just as well it was Trans Tasman and not long haul to SIN or BKK.
NOW I see how EK report such strong profits! Furthermore, their inflight service wasn't anything special. Bear in mind that the crews on JQ are only capable of doing so much with the goods provided. Service is more than just the product!
Advertising and marketing can do WONDER's for any company!
Join Date: Mar 2002
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ur2 and BA50 -
Some facts for you both...
DJ 73Gs have 32" in front of the wings and 30" beind. 738s are 32" throughout - more than QF.
JQ has 30" in all bar three rows (14, 24 and 25) on the 717s - which are 29". The 320s are 30" in all rows except four or so rows on the RHS in front of the exits, which are 29". (This makes way for the galley bulkhead)
The 717s at QFLink were 32" in 115/117Y. For a SHORT amount of time VQF-K flew around in a 12J/90Y config sold as 102Y. Seat pitch was 37" in J and 34-35" in Y.
The seats on the 717 are .5" wider than 737s. 320s are 1" wider.
Some facts for you both...
DJ 73Gs have 32" in front of the wings and 30" beind. 738s are 32" throughout - more than QF.
JQ has 30" in all bar three rows (14, 24 and 25) on the 717s - which are 29". The 320s are 30" in all rows except four or so rows on the RHS in front of the exits, which are 29". (This makes way for the galley bulkhead)
The 717s at QFLink were 32" in 115/117Y. For a SHORT amount of time VQF-K flew around in a 12J/90Y config sold as 102Y. Seat pitch was 37" in J and 34-35" in Y.
The seats on the 717 are .5" wider than 737s. 320s are 1" wider.