Stop The Hatred....please.
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Stop The Hatred....please.
Gentlemen.
Trawling through these pages, whilst educational is nothing short of distressing. Here we are, a reasonably intelligent group of people(??) and the best we can come up with is character assassination, invective and vitriol.
Every time someone makes a controversial opinion, they are monstered from every angle. Where is the intellectual dialogue that could so easily enhance these forums and make them truly beneficial. Spleen venting has its place (god knows we need to do that working for these clowns in Oz), however we are missing the point in a very big way.
Pilot conditions and wages etc are under attack by some of the lowest forms of human existance we have ever experienced (read profiteering bean counters etc).
If we were half smart, we could put our collective energy into building a comprehensive mechanism to stop the rot. QF pilots are NOT PAID TOO MUCH! The rest of us are underpaid, and we should in the first instance acknowledge that, and then be prepared to do something about it.
Sledging each other about who started all of this is irrelevant. The fact is we are being set against each other by these parasites and it is working beautifully.
We all do the same job. Last week I had a 5 sector day in which we carried 180 pax on each sector. That is 900 pax for the day and in return in get $148K per annum. What an absolute disgrace! We don't get paid for workload comrades, we get paid for the level of responsibility that comes with the job and the continual study and checking regimes that go with it.
I propose that we,
1. Stop the hatred. I.e. Try to limit the negativity toward each other.
2. Be pro-active in finding solutions to the lowering of conditions.
3. Make a genuine attempt at developing a cohesive and UNITED pilot body that will not take ANY cr@p from dillusional/dysfunctional management.
4. Put the position of airline pilot back on the level where it belongs. I do not mean being eliteist, I mean showing each other the respect they deserve and setting a positve example for new people entering the industry.
Be aware my friends, there are airline management people masquerading as pilots and stirring up a lot of this hatred in these threads. Don't get sucked in by it. It is in their interests to keep us divided and keep conditions down. It is in our interests to rise above that rubbish and work vigorously toward a better future.
This is not about rampant left wing ideology, it is about being SMART and and using 21st century thinking to avail ourselves of the best course of action.
Trawling through these pages, whilst educational is nothing short of distressing. Here we are, a reasonably intelligent group of people(??) and the best we can come up with is character assassination, invective and vitriol.
Every time someone makes a controversial opinion, they are monstered from every angle. Where is the intellectual dialogue that could so easily enhance these forums and make them truly beneficial. Spleen venting has its place (god knows we need to do that working for these clowns in Oz), however we are missing the point in a very big way.
Pilot conditions and wages etc are under attack by some of the lowest forms of human existance we have ever experienced (read profiteering bean counters etc).
If we were half smart, we could put our collective energy into building a comprehensive mechanism to stop the rot. QF pilots are NOT PAID TOO MUCH! The rest of us are underpaid, and we should in the first instance acknowledge that, and then be prepared to do something about it.
Sledging each other about who started all of this is irrelevant. The fact is we are being set against each other by these parasites and it is working beautifully.
We all do the same job. Last week I had a 5 sector day in which we carried 180 pax on each sector. That is 900 pax for the day and in return in get $148K per annum. What an absolute disgrace! We don't get paid for workload comrades, we get paid for the level of responsibility that comes with the job and the continual study and checking regimes that go with it.
I propose that we,
1. Stop the hatred. I.e. Try to limit the negativity toward each other.
2. Be pro-active in finding solutions to the lowering of conditions.
3. Make a genuine attempt at developing a cohesive and UNITED pilot body that will not take ANY cr@p from dillusional/dysfunctional management.
4. Put the position of airline pilot back on the level where it belongs. I do not mean being eliteist, I mean showing each other the respect they deserve and setting a positve example for new people entering the industry.
Be aware my friends, there are airline management people masquerading as pilots and stirring up a lot of this hatred in these threads. Don't get sucked in by it. It is in their interests to keep us divided and keep conditions down. It is in our interests to rise above that rubbish and work vigorously toward a better future.
This is not about rampant left wing ideology, it is about being SMART and and using 21st century thinking to avail ourselves of the best course of action.
Last edited by coitus interuptus; 23rd Aug 2005 at 05:46.
Yes coitus....I totally agree.
There will of course be criticism that you're idealistic or unrealistic but you are entirely CORRECT.
The one thing you could have also mentioned is the immediate need for AIPA and the AFAP to join forces. This would be the catalyst for going forward as a united group.
You also need not apologise for wishing to place the position of pilot back on a pedestal. It is a challenging and sometimes stressful occupation and should not be denegrated by others for their own ends.
Well said sir
There will of course be criticism that you're idealistic or unrealistic but you are entirely CORRECT.
The one thing you could have also mentioned is the immediate need for AIPA and the AFAP to join forces. This would be the catalyst for going forward as a united group.
You also need not apologise for wishing to place the position of pilot back on a pedestal. It is a challenging and sometimes stressful occupation and should not be denegrated by others for their own ends.
Well said sir
Evertonian
Put the position of airline pilot back on the pedastal where it belongs
Even though you've qualified it, this is the sort of thinking that loses you the support of other aviation professionals who could do a lot to help your cause! The fact is that plenty of non pilots read this and probably raised an eyebrow too.
Oh well, I know you're only talking to pilots here, so I'll leave it at that...but its worth considering!
Good luck!
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Point taken Buster.
However I think ATC and Engineering should be up there as well. They are very important and highly demanding occupations with huge responsibility.
Martin Luther King was a bit of a dreamer and I confess to being one as well. We have so much potential as a group but very little impetus due to division .
However I think ATC and Engineering should be up there as well. They are very important and highly demanding occupations with huge responsibility.
Martin Luther King was a bit of a dreamer and I confess to being one as well. We have so much potential as a group but very little impetus due to division .
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There are so many other pricks on the pedestal, the airline pilots would hardly have any room. And besides, they did a fine job pushing each other off in the first place and they're still at it at ground level trying to get back on.
Who cares?
Who cares?
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Yeah well last night on my 12 hr shift I worked on 4 aeroplanes including an engine change on a 747. How many passengers would have flown on those kites? My responsibility is different but the consquences of a mistake are no less devastating!! I get considerably less than $148K (and that's after 20 yrs in the industry).
I don't believe $148K is a disgrace(nor is it overpaid) but pilots don't deserve to be on any "pedestal" just because they can fly a plane!!. More like get off your highhorse!!
I don't believe $148K is a disgrace(nor is it overpaid) but pilots don't deserve to be on any "pedestal" just because they can fly a plane!!. More like get off your highhorse!!
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Numbskull it was probably my lack of diction that has caused the indifference.
I don't profess to be better than anyone, and that is certainly not the point I wanted to make. To clarify it I will change the wording.
Management are (and have been for some time) making a concerted effort to supress, divide and belittle our occupations. It comes from an inane misunderstanding of our positions and complete lack of appreciation for what we do (pilots, engineers and ATC).
I have also done 20+ years in the industry and I get paid $50K per year LESS than my mates who do the same job. I want to ensure the benchmark set by Qantas is maintained for the rest of us to aspire to.
Yes it was my choice to come back from o/s to the country I want to retire in and watch my kids grow. As I said all that is irrelevant. Instead of being at each others throats, we could do well to move collectively toward better conditions. QF included.
Throughout the course of history, I am not aware of ANY group who achieved results through hostility and aggression toward each other. I stand to be corrected if I am wrong.
Lets grow some testicles and put an end to the carnage.
I don't profess to be better than anyone, and that is certainly not the point I wanted to make. To clarify it I will change the wording.
Management are (and have been for some time) making a concerted effort to supress, divide and belittle our occupations. It comes from an inane misunderstanding of our positions and complete lack of appreciation for what we do (pilots, engineers and ATC).
I have also done 20+ years in the industry and I get paid $50K per year LESS than my mates who do the same job. I want to ensure the benchmark set by Qantas is maintained for the rest of us to aspire to.
Yes it was my choice to come back from o/s to the country I want to retire in and watch my kids grow. As I said all that is irrelevant. Instead of being at each others throats, we could do well to move collectively toward better conditions. QF included.
Throughout the course of history, I am not aware of ANY group who achieved results through hostility and aggression toward each other. I stand to be corrected if I am wrong.
Lets grow some testicles and put an end to the carnage.
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Well said
coitus for PM!
Seriously though, this is a situation that is persisting throughout the industry. I view it as an industry issue rather than simply a pilot one... wages AND conditions must be given a thorough going over at all ends of the spectrum. Aviation is the safest mode of transport for a reason... highly trained individuals acting in a team environment to provide an excellent service. Could it be that the industry has become it's own worst enemy in that it is now so safe and (somewhat) routine that it negates higher wages and better conditions? Or has it more to do with pilots being so desperate for work down here, that anyone will do anything for a job?
We may need another thread entirely to have a bitching session regarding managers and airline hierarchy
coitus for PM!
Seriously though, this is a situation that is persisting throughout the industry. I view it as an industry issue rather than simply a pilot one... wages AND conditions must be given a thorough going over at all ends of the spectrum. Aviation is the safest mode of transport for a reason... highly trained individuals acting in a team environment to provide an excellent service. Could it be that the industry has become it's own worst enemy in that it is now so safe and (somewhat) routine that it negates higher wages and better conditions? Or has it more to do with pilots being so desperate for work down here, that anyone will do anything for a job?
We may need another thread entirely to have a bitching session regarding managers and airline hierarchy
Lodown wrote:
Now I've got to clean coffee off the laptop screen and keyboard. I haven't pi$$ed myself laughing that hard in a very long time.
Thanks mate.
....There are so many other pricks on the pedestal, the airline pilots would hardly have any room....
Thanks mate.
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What I think Numbskull is saying in a rounderbout way is that his signature is on four aircraft and therefore his responsibility wheras pilots are only responsible for the one that they are currently sitting in.
But I could be wrong!
But I could be wrong!
Evertonian
Okay, I did say I'd leave it at that, but I'll chuck one more in for good measure...
The pilots, as a group, DO need to try and see things on the straight & level. This applies to ALL professions. I don't think you'll get far so long as a certain group vehemently loathe another certain group. There's your first hurdle! If you blokes can get past that, you're on your way.
What non pilots think about your pay scales is irrelevant. Award conditions are negotiated in good faith. If I can get more through clever bargainning, lucky me. If you get more than me then good for you! I should try harder...or...talk to you about how I can do better next time.
Now, having said others' opinion of your wages is irrelevant, so too is whinging about non pilots wages, like Ramp staff getting upwards of $90k chucking bags. Apples for Apples, as 737guru used to say to me. You cannot compare what you do to other professions and try to draw remuneration comparisons, it doesn't work.
So, when you've realised when you can all talk again, where do you go? You organise! Be it through existing unions or just a professional group, whatever, you become a like minded group that genuinely wants to improve conditions from the ground up! Make sure you get a word in at aero clubs or schools & ensure that new pilots coming through understand what you are on about. Keep it realistic & relative in the economic climate & you should do okay.
Now, reading back, it looks like kids stuff, but its just the basics...sometimes, getting back to basics is all you need!
The pilots, as a group, DO need to try and see things on the straight & level. This applies to ALL professions. I don't think you'll get far so long as a certain group vehemently loathe another certain group. There's your first hurdle! If you blokes can get past that, you're on your way.
What non pilots think about your pay scales is irrelevant. Award conditions are negotiated in good faith. If I can get more through clever bargainning, lucky me. If you get more than me then good for you! I should try harder...or...talk to you about how I can do better next time.
Now, having said others' opinion of your wages is irrelevant, so too is whinging about non pilots wages, like Ramp staff getting upwards of $90k chucking bags. Apples for Apples, as 737guru used to say to me. You cannot compare what you do to other professions and try to draw remuneration comparisons, it doesn't work.
So, when you've realised when you can all talk again, where do you go? You organise! Be it through existing unions or just a professional group, whatever, you become a like minded group that genuinely wants to improve conditions from the ground up! Make sure you get a word in at aero clubs or schools & ensure that new pilots coming through understand what you are on about. Keep it realistic & relative in the economic climate & you should do okay.
Now, reading back, it looks like kids stuff, but its just the basics...sometimes, getting back to basics is all you need!
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To those of you posting that don’t fly for a living - please don’t bring your pissing contest to this thread. With all the outsourcing of non-flying positions going on, you all might want to concentrate on getting your own houses in order. 
Completely agree coitus interruptus. Where do I sign up!
Completely agree coitus interruptus. Where do I sign up!
Coitus Interuptus, sounds like you are the type who gets all dressed up in your flash pilots uniform to go to the local supermarket on your days off so u can perade in front of your adoring public so they can see that you are indeed a................PILOT! Gee, 900 pax in a day.................... do you get a medal to pin on your chest if you crack 1000?? Talk about a wamker.
Many other professions have the same or greater responsibility and make far less that 148K. Go ask an ICU nursing specialist, pediatric nurse, ER doctors, just to name a few. But you dont see them saying how good they are, they just get on with their life.
Now why does FIGJAM come to mind.
Many other professions have the same or greater responsibility and make far less that 148K. Go ask an ICU nursing specialist, pediatric nurse, ER doctors, just to name a few. But you dont see them saying how good they are, they just get on with their life.
Now why does FIGJAM come to mind.
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Nice try guptar.
As I said ladies gentlemen, there are types who attempt to drive the wedge in where they can and cause division (see above). They are not pilots and dont have one iota of understanding of the industry or what we do, just pure jealously and a very sinister hidden agenda.
Let this person wallow in his hatred while the rest of us get on with the job of constructive dialogue and change.
As I said ladies gentlemen, there are types who attempt to drive the wedge in where they can and cause division (see above). They are not pilots and dont have one iota of understanding of the industry or what we do, just pure jealously and a very sinister hidden agenda.
Let this person wallow in his hatred while the rest of us get on with the job of constructive dialogue and change.
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Good post CI
Kinda like the last days of the Roman Empire.
Time was when mutual respect existed between all disciplines.
Pilots couldn’t fly unless there were Traffic staff to check in Pax, Baggage guys to load, Engineers to keep us flying, FA's to hostess, Management to throw the annual keg, Bookkeepers to keep the bank happy.. etc
No one was more important than his/ her neighbour as without any element the operation would not take place.
This constant professional slagging shows how our flying game has been degraded, and sadly, this forum has in recent years been highjacked by "the chattering classes" to push political/ industrial points of view. Woomera is correct in reminding us to be kind to one another.
I have also watched with disbelief the speed of some posters to answer what are obvious journalists fishing for material to dump the dirt on our profession.
Maybe it is symptomatic of society in general. Welcome to life in the 21st Century.
Kinda like the last days of the Roman Empire.
Time was when mutual respect existed between all disciplines.
Pilots couldn’t fly unless there were Traffic staff to check in Pax, Baggage guys to load, Engineers to keep us flying, FA's to hostess, Management to throw the annual keg, Bookkeepers to keep the bank happy.. etc
No one was more important than his/ her neighbour as without any element the operation would not take place.
This constant professional slagging shows how our flying game has been degraded, and sadly, this forum has in recent years been highjacked by "the chattering classes" to push political/ industrial points of view. Woomera is correct in reminding us to be kind to one another.
I have also watched with disbelief the speed of some posters to answer what are obvious journalists fishing for material to dump the dirt on our profession.
Maybe it is symptomatic of society in general. Welcome to life in the 21st Century.
Last edited by chimbu; 24th Aug 2005 at 01:15.
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I'm with Chimbu... rather than ****ting each other in OUR own industry, why not work together? Plane doesn't go to far if the guy downstairs doesn't connect the tug properly etc etc!
There is a general lack of respect within the industry from all angles. Perhaps it's everywhere in society? Lack of respect for one another... Then again there are so many dickheads that don't deserve any respect.
There is a general lack of respect within the industry from all angles. Perhaps it's everywhere in society? Lack of respect for one another... Then again there are so many dickheads that don't deserve any respect.
These kinds of discussions always remind me of the patently paradoxical parroting by the crowd in Life of Brian: We're all individuals!
At the heart of the problem is the fact that, despite the name of the forum, and notwithstanding how often it's asserted, no one in the aviation industry is a true professional. I realise that lots of you earnestly believe or hope that you are, but the very existence of this forum, and the content of some of the discussions that go on here, prove otherwise.
Members of true professions are obliged to maintain the integrity and reputation of their profession by ensuring that their communications are courteous and that they avoid offensive or provocative language or conduct. The most technically competent doctor or lawyer is prone to disciplinary action, including removal of the right to practice, if s/he were to engage in the kinds of discourteous, offensive and provocative language that pollutes PPRuNe, or at least D&G. That's one of the reasons for there not being a doctors' or lawyers' equivalent of PPRuNe.
If I were to suggest that all aviation licences should be subject to a condition that the holder must maintain the integrity and reputation of their profession by ensuring that their communications are courteous and that they avoid offensive or provocative language or conduct, I would be cyber-lynched.
Altogether now: We're all fu*kin' professionals!
At the heart of the problem is the fact that, despite the name of the forum, and notwithstanding how often it's asserted, no one in the aviation industry is a true professional. I realise that lots of you earnestly believe or hope that you are, but the very existence of this forum, and the content of some of the discussions that go on here, prove otherwise.
Members of true professions are obliged to maintain the integrity and reputation of their profession by ensuring that their communications are courteous and that they avoid offensive or provocative language or conduct. The most technically competent doctor or lawyer is prone to disciplinary action, including removal of the right to practice, if s/he were to engage in the kinds of discourteous, offensive and provocative language that pollutes PPRuNe, or at least D&G. That's one of the reasons for there not being a doctors' or lawyers' equivalent of PPRuNe.
If I were to suggest that all aviation licences should be subject to a condition that the holder must maintain the integrity and reputation of their profession by ensuring that their communications are courteous and that they avoid offensive or provocative language or conduct, I would be cyber-lynched.
Altogether now: We're all fu*kin' professionals!
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Creampuff, with due respect, you are incrorrect. Contrary to popular belief, PROFESSION is no longer defined as requiring special training in the liberal arts or sciences such as Law, Theology or Medicine. It has plenty (and a lot more) to do with the body or group of people in such an occupation. Therefore by default a professional is a person suitable for or engaged in a profession. Therefore (again) pilots ARE PROFESSIONALS. So are engineers and ATCO's.
Management have been trying hard for years to downgrade our PROFESSION. It is an attitude enshrined by pure jealousy.
"The Life of Brian" is a hilarious movie, but it has no significance here. Further more, we are arguing semantics. I don't believe too many people really care.
Australian pilot's are under attack from vacuous bean counters with little or no empathy/understanding for the trade we perform.
Responsibility for transporting people through the air safely should come at a reasonable price. At this stage only QF are realising that objective.
Management have been trying hard for years to downgrade our PROFESSION. It is an attitude enshrined by pure jealousy.
"The Life of Brian" is a hilarious movie, but it has no significance here. Further more, we are arguing semantics. I don't believe too many people really care.
Australian pilot's are under attack from vacuous bean counters with little or no empathy/understanding for the trade we perform.
Responsibility for transporting people through the air safely should come at a reasonable price. At this stage only QF are realising that objective.