Stop The Hatred....please.
Join Date: May 2001
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There'll be several thousand unemployed pilots willing to jump into the jobs.
Do what the doctors and construction workers do...regulate through one means or another (apprenticeships etc.) the number of people getting licences in the first place. Yeah right!!!
Do what the doctors and construction workers do...regulate through one means or another (apprenticeships etc.) the number of people getting licences in the first place. Yeah right!!!
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Writing Part 141 and 142 manuals these days
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So, what are we really worth?
Seems that pilots, like school teachers, and bus drivers as well as other career types, all believe they are worth more than they are being paid - difference is, the other industry workers seem to have all their shyte in one sock and can negotiate with their particular industry leaders and achieve a gross increase in pay that seems to be above CPI or inflation - even if it appears that they hold their industry hostage on occasion to the detrement of the end consumers ie hospital patients, bus passangers, etc.
So, the question is - who has a solution to propose changes to the body representing (and being paid 1% of wages) to do something about the state of play? See the way I see it is that the consumer / customer in MOST instances governs the final price, and if they dont, the consumer goes elsewhere. Unfortunatly, there aint elswhere to go unless another organisation is set up (heaven forbid - the divide and conquer rule at work again!).
I am sure that if the members of this organisation (or any other) feel that they are not being paid what they think they should be paid, its simple, members should come up with an agreed "wage", propose this to their representing organisations, and then if there is nothing done about it - stop payment on their annual fees! - it wont take long until that organisation feels the financial pinch, and then decides to act on behalf of its members as a UNITED FRONT!
Further question:
those that do winge about pay and conditions - what do you think we are worth?
Single engine UTBNI 5700 kg?
Multi engine UTBNI 3300kg?
Multi engine > 3300kg, UTBNI 5700 kg? (Command / F/O)
Multi engine > 5700 kg, UTBNI 100 seats? (Command / F/O)
Multi engine > 100 seats UTBNI 200 seats? (Command / F/O)
Multi engine > 200 seats UTBNI 300 seats? (Command / F/O)
Multi engine > 300 seats? (Command / F/O)
additional allowances:
IFR pilot
Instructor pilot
Turbo-prop pilot
Jet pilot
Other aviation industry employees:
F/E - if there are any left?
Trolly Dollies?
Ginger Beers?
Bag chuckas?
Catering?
Check-in staff?
anyone else you can think of?
THEN add these costs together and ask yourself "if the airline or operator that I fly for has the above fixed costs, plus the rise in fuel surcharge (if not passed on to the passengers), and needs around $XX on the aircraft I fly, to achieve this, a YY% sector load factor is required, is this going to see me out of a job if I ask for this OBSURD pay rise because the company has gone into liquidation, or am I better off asking for a smaller realistic pay rise and having a job over the longer term that I will be happier in?
BTW, I am not a bean counter, so I am sure there are other costs I have overlooked!
Additionally, have the LCC's set the industry up with a false economy, and it is on the brink of collapse? (I personally think not)
Also, are we seeing the long term ramifications of the GST in our industry whereby it is almost cost prohibitive to those except the gifted with daddy's silver spoon in their mouths (perhaps it is those in this position that are not happy with the fortnightly yeald that these newfound skills deliver to their back pocket?) to learn the skills of the trade, thereby creating a shortage in the "experienced pilot" area and what negotiating power does this give the piloting fraternaty in asking for mure $$'s in their fortnightly bank account both now and in the future? - Perhaps the representing bodies should be lobbying the Government for tax relief to operators as well, but then pilots wont be happier with that if the Government reduces the GST on aviation because then it would be more affordable for students to learn how to fly, and there will be more competition in the job market, and then it becomes an employers market again and so the wheel goes around again!!
Now I am all confused, hot and bothered, and put in my two cents worth for what its worth, its just some food for thought, what do other industry employees think?
Has anyone got a spare bex and a couch for me to lie in??
Cheers, Keep smiling sunshiners!!
Ace
So, the question is - who has a solution to propose changes to the body representing (and being paid 1% of wages) to do something about the state of play? See the way I see it is that the consumer / customer in MOST instances governs the final price, and if they dont, the consumer goes elsewhere. Unfortunatly, there aint elswhere to go unless another organisation is set up (heaven forbid - the divide and conquer rule at work again!).
I am sure that if the members of this organisation (or any other) feel that they are not being paid what they think they should be paid, its simple, members should come up with an agreed "wage", propose this to their representing organisations, and then if there is nothing done about it - stop payment on their annual fees! - it wont take long until that organisation feels the financial pinch, and then decides to act on behalf of its members as a UNITED FRONT!
Further question:
those that do winge about pay and conditions - what do you think we are worth?
Single engine UTBNI 5700 kg?
Multi engine UTBNI 3300kg?
Multi engine > 3300kg, UTBNI 5700 kg? (Command / F/O)
Multi engine > 5700 kg, UTBNI 100 seats? (Command / F/O)
Multi engine > 100 seats UTBNI 200 seats? (Command / F/O)
Multi engine > 200 seats UTBNI 300 seats? (Command / F/O)
Multi engine > 300 seats? (Command / F/O)
additional allowances:
IFR pilot
Instructor pilot
Turbo-prop pilot
Jet pilot
Other aviation industry employees:
F/E - if there are any left?
Trolly Dollies?
Ginger Beers?
Bag chuckas?
Catering?
Check-in staff?
anyone else you can think of?
THEN add these costs together and ask yourself "if the airline or operator that I fly for has the above fixed costs, plus the rise in fuel surcharge (if not passed on to the passengers), and needs around $XX on the aircraft I fly, to achieve this, a YY% sector load factor is required, is this going to see me out of a job if I ask for this OBSURD pay rise because the company has gone into liquidation, or am I better off asking for a smaller realistic pay rise and having a job over the longer term that I will be happier in?
BTW, I am not a bean counter, so I am sure there are other costs I have overlooked!
Additionally, have the LCC's set the industry up with a false economy, and it is on the brink of collapse? (I personally think not)
Also, are we seeing the long term ramifications of the GST in our industry whereby it is almost cost prohibitive to those except the gifted with daddy's silver spoon in their mouths (perhaps it is those in this position that are not happy with the fortnightly yeald that these newfound skills deliver to their back pocket?) to learn the skills of the trade, thereby creating a shortage in the "experienced pilot" area and what negotiating power does this give the piloting fraternaty in asking for mure $$'s in their fortnightly bank account both now and in the future? - Perhaps the representing bodies should be lobbying the Government for tax relief to operators as well, but then pilots wont be happier with that if the Government reduces the GST on aviation because then it would be more affordable for students to learn how to fly, and there will be more competition in the job market, and then it becomes an employers market again and so the wheel goes around again!!
Now I am all confused, hot and bothered, and put in my two cents worth for what its worth, its just some food for thought, what do other industry employees think?
Has anyone got a spare bex and a couch for me to lie in??
Cheers, Keep smiling sunshiners!!
Ace
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Alice Springs
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IT'S COMING BACK TO BITE YOU!
Many of the postings on prune indicate an irresponsible, arrogant "holier than thou" ," Mine's bigger than yours" attitude Belittling of the GA section is a favourite sport.
Most of our airline pilots have got to where they are through the ga system, and many did a lot of damage on the way through Many are still doing damage with the common GA bashing that goes on almost every day.
There are many good GA operators, and pilots, providing much needed services under difficult conditions. Give them a fair go.
Our scheduled airline system is not doing verywell at the moment, and seems to have real accidents, and many incidents.
This week in the territory we had one jet diverting, and another had a tail strike, but we do not run around raving about "shonky airlines " or "clapped out jets"
This behaviour has had the predictable result of damaging the whole of the air transport system, and is moving rapidly into the major airlines.
A change of attitude, and a bit of respect for ones colleaguesis needed. I hope it is not too late.
WHAT YOU DO COMES BACK TO YOUi
Many of the postings on prune indicate an irresponsible, arrogant "holier than thou" ," Mine's bigger than yours" attitude Belittling of the GA section is a favourite sport.
Most of our airline pilots have got to where they are through the ga system, and many did a lot of damage on the way through Many are still doing damage with the common GA bashing that goes on almost every day.
There are many good GA operators, and pilots, providing much needed services under difficult conditions. Give them a fair go.
Our scheduled airline system is not doing verywell at the moment, and seems to have real accidents, and many incidents.
This week in the territory we had one jet diverting, and another had a tail strike, but we do not run around raving about "shonky airlines " or "clapped out jets"
This behaviour has had the predictable result of damaging the whole of the air transport system, and is moving rapidly into the major airlines.
A change of attitude, and a bit of respect for ones colleaguesis needed. I hope it is not too late.
WHAT YOU DO COMES BACK TO YOUi
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Sydney
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Oh c'mon, flying a plane is not all that hard is it??!!!!
And please don't go on about how many lives are in your hands. I've always thought self preservation was pretty high on the list of reasons to get a plane safely on the ground!!
I sure the novelty of travel wears off pretty quickly and I think that warrants special compensation if away from home for long periods of time.
The pay is just a function of supply and demand and competition. In years gone there was no competition and small demand for pilots which kept wages high.
Having said that I don't think any one would bother becoming an airline pilot for less than what the jetstar pilots are doing it for. So you would imagine that the supply of willing pilots would dry up at that "price". Job satisfaction will only go so far!!!!!!!!!
The same thing is hapenning for LAMES as well. The people from apprentice training told me they used to get thousands of job applicants for apprenticeships at QF. Now they're lucky to get a few hundred.
We don't even have people willing to take our place. GD just keeps on threatening to take the work overseas to keep our wages low(he probably will anyway!!! )
And please don't go on about how many lives are in your hands. I've always thought self preservation was pretty high on the list of reasons to get a plane safely on the ground!!
I sure the novelty of travel wears off pretty quickly and I think that warrants special compensation if away from home for long periods of time.
The pay is just a function of supply and demand and competition. In years gone there was no competition and small demand for pilots which kept wages high.
Having said that I don't think any one would bother becoming an airline pilot for less than what the jetstar pilots are doing it for. So you would imagine that the supply of willing pilots would dry up at that "price". Job satisfaction will only go so far!!!!!!!!!
The same thing is hapenning for LAMES as well. The people from apprentice training told me they used to get thousands of job applicants for apprenticeships at QF. Now they're lucky to get a few hundred.
We don't even have people willing to take our place. GD just keeps on threatening to take the work overseas to keep our wages low(he probably will anyway!!! )
Join Date: Jul 2005
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You lot are to funny.
This thread is called stop the hatred..and where have you taken it to.
Another slanging match..
One thing that does appear to be a common link..
The ego's.
Reminds me of an old joke.
What the diff between a pilot and Jesus?
Jesus doesnt think he is God after few drinks.
This thread is called stop the hatred..and where have you taken it to.
Another slanging match..
One thing that does appear to be a common link..
The ego's.
Reminds me of an old joke.
What the diff between a pilot and Jesus?
Jesus doesnt think he is God after few drinks.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Australia
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Mcbolt you are correct.
It never ceases to amaze me how peope just continue to denigrate each other to achieve the sum total of NOTHING. Also be aware there are management stooges in here masquerading as pilot's etc and they successfully stir up the pot. We are generally a little too slow to work it out, and take the bait.
Who cares what role we play in the industry gentlemen? The fact remains if we don't get our act together very soon, it will all be a bit academic.
Back to the subject
STOP THE HATRED
It is not that hard my esteemed colleagues. Instead of slagging each other and making mind numbing comparisons, focus your attention on the root problem. We are being treated with contempt and played off against each other. Don't get sucked in by it.
Start talking to your work mates and canvass the idea of a single POWERFUL negotiating body which covers ALL pilots from airline to GA. No exclusions! It can be done and it is possible. Only a negative mind set will impede progess.
It never ceases to amaze me how peope just continue to denigrate each other to achieve the sum total of NOTHING. Also be aware there are management stooges in here masquerading as pilot's etc and they successfully stir up the pot. We are generally a little too slow to work it out, and take the bait.
Who cares what role we play in the industry gentlemen? The fact remains if we don't get our act together very soon, it will all be a bit academic.
Back to the subject
STOP THE HATRED
It is not that hard my esteemed colleagues. Instead of slagging each other and making mind numbing comparisons, focus your attention on the root problem. We are being treated with contempt and played off against each other. Don't get sucked in by it.
Start talking to your work mates and canvass the idea of a single POWERFUL negotiating body which covers ALL pilots from airline to GA. No exclusions! It can be done and it is possible. Only a negative mind set will impede progess.
Last edited by coitus interuptus; 30th Aug 2005 at 06:03.
