Stop The Hatred....please.
OK then ci, what ethical and behavioural standards are imposed upon you as a consequence of membership of your profession?
If all it takes to be a member of a profession is that you are paid to do a task that you are technically competent to perform, the junkie that washes windscreens full time for money on the corner is a member of a profession.
PS: OZBUSDRIVER, where's your "I'm not" gone? It was the perfect riposte to my post!
Touche OpsNormal!
If all it takes to be a member of a profession is that you are paid to do a task that you are technically competent to perform, the junkie that washes windscreens full time for money on the corner is a member of a profession.
PS: OZBUSDRIVER, where's your "I'm not" gone? It was the perfect riposte to my post!
Touche OpsNormal!
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CI, I agree with the theory but I can't see it ever becoming a working model that reaps any benefits to the industry. Way too many egomaniacs who are in it for themselves. Also, I don't think the job belongs on any sort of pedestal. It's just a job, not rocket science. Why should it be on a pedestal??
Numbskull - Forget Kaptin M's automatic and predictable response to anything regarding pilot's skills. He can't help himself. That's why he is where he is.
The fact these big and complex machines run so well, day in and day out for years is a credit to the less glamorous role of the engineers. Your skills, knowledge and attention to detail is not praised nearly enough. You guys and gals in the grotty overalls are absolute champions. Onya.
cheers
Gin.
Numbskull - Forget Kaptin M's automatic and predictable response to anything regarding pilot's skills. He can't help himself. That's why he is where he is.
The fact these big and complex machines run so well, day in and day out for years is a credit to the less glamorous role of the engineers. Your skills, knowledge and attention to detail is not praised nearly enough. You guys and gals in the grotty overalls are absolute champions. Onya.
cheers
Gin.
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I saw this thread justr after C.I. posted, and found myself pondering how many reply posts before it gets nasty 
was thinking about throwing in some advice back then but thought better of it
but cant help myself now after reading the last two pages of replies - the advice that I was going to offer was:
"TIN HATS ON BOYS (AND SHELAS), DIG IN WITH YOUR EYEBROWS - SOMEONE WILL MAKE "CONTACT" WITH A RIGHT FLANKER AND THIS IS GONNA BECOME A TWO WAY SHOOTING RANGE!!"
Seems the Ginger Beers spilt the milk on this one!!
Keep smiling sunshiners!!
Ace
was thinking about throwing in some advice back then but thought better of it
but cant help myself now after reading the last two pages of replies - the advice that I was going to offer was:
"TIN HATS ON BOYS (AND SHELAS), DIG IN WITH YOUR EYEBROWS - SOMEONE WILL MAKE "CONTACT" WITH A RIGHT FLANKER AND THIS IS GONNA BECOME A TWO WAY SHOOTING RANGE!!"
Seems the Ginger Beers spilt the milk on this one!!
Keep smiling sunshiners!!
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Thats true Admiral.. Personally I have lockwired out thrust reversers on the B737 and signed it out, but only as a relief measure to return the a/c to mainbase.
Furthermore, your last reply is a perfect example of the devisiveness CI is preaching against. So to all you LAME's out there I would like to apologise for my colleague's graceless remark. He is a chattering fool. Be assured we hold you in the highest esteem and could not (would not) operate without your wonderful support.
Perhaps Admiral, you should follow your “moderate mild and modest” sub handle.
Alternatively, let your solicitors loose on any who disagree.
Furthermore, your last reply is a perfect example of the devisiveness CI is preaching against. So to all you LAME's out there I would like to apologise for my colleague's graceless remark. He is a chattering fool. Be assured we hold you in the highest esteem and could not (would not) operate without your wonderful support.
Perhaps Admiral, you should follow your “moderate mild and modest” sub handle.
Alternatively, let your solicitors loose on any who disagree.
Last edited by chimbu; 24th Aug 2005 at 22:56.
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A robust debate is welcomed gentlemen, but not at the expense of decency and decorum. Thank you for your inputs to date.
Lets just agree we both need each other to be doing our job correctly AT ALL TIMES.
I appreciate the difficulty of getting everyone singing from the same hymn sheet. It has been likened to trying to push a pile of manure up a hill.
It matters not how difficult the task. It simply has to be done if we are to preserve what we have and bargain hard for a much better future.
Ever since the advent of the bean counter CEO, attitudes and conditions have deteriorated. You will not find too many business schools or any text advocating the systematic abuse and mis- treatment of staff as a successful business and fiscal foundation. Quite the contrary is true.
We are going to have to perform a LAZARUS here gents if we are to realise a better future. And it starts right here and right now with you. It is easy to sit back and let others do the work. Tangible benefits will only be realised when we ALL get off our backsides and collectively deal with the issues.
As I said, rampant left wing ideologey is not the way to go. Busines leaders are onto that sort of behaviour these days and have mechanisms in place to deal with it.
Through smart calculated dialogue, great things are possible. Alternatively you can sit on your behinds and accept the status quo. It may serve you well in the short term, but think 5 years ahead and then imagine the consequenses of doing nothing. Not very pleasant is it?
Lets just agree we both need each other to be doing our job correctly AT ALL TIMES.
I appreciate the difficulty of getting everyone singing from the same hymn sheet. It has been likened to trying to push a pile of manure up a hill.
It matters not how difficult the task. It simply has to be done if we are to preserve what we have and bargain hard for a much better future.
Ever since the advent of the bean counter CEO, attitudes and conditions have deteriorated. You will not find too many business schools or any text advocating the systematic abuse and mis- treatment of staff as a successful business and fiscal foundation. Quite the contrary is true.
We are going to have to perform a LAZARUS here gents if we are to realise a better future. And it starts right here and right now with you. It is easy to sit back and let others do the work. Tangible benefits will only be realised when we ALL get off our backsides and collectively deal with the issues.
As I said, rampant left wing ideologey is not the way to go. Busines leaders are onto that sort of behaviour these days and have mechanisms in place to deal with it.
Through smart calculated dialogue, great things are possible. Alternatively you can sit on your behinds and accept the status quo. It may serve you well in the short term, but think 5 years ahead and then imagine the consequenses of doing nothing. Not very pleasant is it?
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It is all quite simple really, the reason things have changed so much in the Aviation World is the Low Cost Carrier. They have created low cost positions for pilots who 30 or 40 years ago would not have even got a look in. Not because they were not capable, but there was just not enough seats to go round.
However, that is all again in the process of change, the price of fuel accelerating rapidly sky wards, and more likely to go up further rather than down, will see the demise of Low Cost Carriers as such, the folks that are using these services will be the first to feel the pinch and go back to staying at home or taking the bus or a train.
Air travel will once again be the domain of the elite, and the lucky few who remain as aeroplane drivers will be able to expect the salaries and conditions of service that all seem to think they are entitled to. But eventually, comparing the latest products from Boeing and Airbus with the DC3's,all in less fifty years, the newer products will not require anyone but perhaps a systems monitor at the sharp end. It is surely getting very close to that already with the latest products, a different world from the days of the radial piston powered airliner.
And then there will be lots of people who will have the time to swap bull**** on PPrune.
Prospector
However, that is all again in the process of change, the price of fuel accelerating rapidly sky wards, and more likely to go up further rather than down, will see the demise of Low Cost Carriers as such, the folks that are using these services will be the first to feel the pinch and go back to staying at home or taking the bus or a train.
Air travel will once again be the domain of the elite, and the lucky few who remain as aeroplane drivers will be able to expect the salaries and conditions of service that all seem to think they are entitled to. But eventually, comparing the latest products from Boeing and Airbus with the DC3's,all in less fifty years, the newer products will not require anyone but perhaps a systems monitor at the sharp end. It is surely getting very close to that already with the latest products, a different world from the days of the radial piston powered airliner.
And then there will be lots of people who will have the time to swap bull**** on PPrune.
Prospector
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Interesting posts so far, with one or two exceptions! What worries me deeply though is that the 'beancounters' (for want of a better description) who are most probably laughing at the infighting going on in this industry are seemingly the only ones aware of the 'divide and conquer' rule.
Those who would want to reduce the pay and conditions of Pilots, Lames, F/As, indeed any and all who work in one way or another at making a/c fly will find their task quite easy if all of us continue in the current divisive way.
Someone far wiser than I shall ever be once said words to the effect that....
A house divided cannot stand
Whether we realise this before it is too late remains to be seen.
You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.
Those who would want to reduce the pay and conditions of Pilots, Lames, F/As, indeed any and all who work in one way or another at making a/c fly will find their task quite easy if all of us continue in the current divisive way.
Someone far wiser than I shall ever be once said words to the effect that....
A house divided cannot stand
Whether we realise this before it is too late remains to be seen.
You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.
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I absolutely agree with the general sentiment flowing on this thread. That is: lets work together to stop the rot.
Will someone please explain to me however, how as a Qantas Mainline pilot I can stand by this sentiment whilst idly watching as the Jetstar organisation undermines my own. Jetstar pilots are greedily lapping up the opportunity to do the EXACT same thing as me for half the pay.
Can someone please tell me how I can reconcile this conundrum of wanting to work together whilst they white ant the industry?
Because I'm finding it very hard not to be bitter about watching my career disappear before my eyes whilst our industry is prostituted.
Will someone please explain to me however, how as a Qantas Mainline pilot I can stand by this sentiment whilst idly watching as the Jetstar organisation undermines my own. Jetstar pilots are greedily lapping up the opportunity to do the EXACT same thing as me for half the pay.
Can someone please tell me how I can reconcile this conundrum of wanting to work together whilst they white ant the industry?
Because I'm finding it very hard not to be bitter about watching my career disappear before my eyes whilst our industry is prostituted.
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Sandy, what have you, and other QF drivers, done to protect YOUR own T & C's?
No one has managed to give me an answer to that one yet, and I've asked it alot of times.
Maybe you can be the first?
No one has managed to give me an answer to that one yet, and I've asked it alot of times.
Maybe you can be the first?
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I cannot answer your question, Colonel, because I cannot claim to know industrial law or our agreements that well. I'm not convinced that any group (AIPA included) can protect themselves from such events.
I do know that my position as a Qantas mainline pilot is becoming tenuous, due to Jetstar pilots whiteanting the industry, and beancounters promoting them.
But I do offer this to Jetstar. If you continue this, and you do render mainline pilots redundant, then you will reap the benefits of what you sow. You will eventually suffer the same fate as those you undermine, when others come along and do the same to you.
I would not be pleased to see this happen.
I do know that my position as a Qantas mainline pilot is becoming tenuous, due to Jetstar pilots whiteanting the industry, and beancounters promoting them.
But I do offer this to Jetstar. If you continue this, and you do render mainline pilots redundant, then you will reap the benefits of what you sow. You will eventually suffer the same fate as those you undermine, when others come along and do the same to you.
I would not be pleased to see this happen.
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Sandy....please do not take offence to this.....but you are now getting a lesson as to why pilots are called the biggest sluts and whores around.....look outside of "your world" because it is happening all over.....look at Cathay,and many others....we are our own worst enemies.......kia kaha
Sandy Feckle wrote:
I might start by asking a few questions about consumerism:
1. Have you ever filled your car at of the "cheapie" fuel distributors such as Liberty, Woolworths etc because the price is that much lower than the full service (or even the self serve) BP or Shell etc on the next corner?
2. Do you, or have you ever owned or entertained the thought of owning a small imported style vehicle such as a Hyundai, Opel or a Kia etc? Or even a small vehicle built by a company with a head office outside this country because you just don't want to pay for a larger locally made family car when an imported hatch will run around town at a lower cost (ie; do the same job)?
3. Do you shop for the most part at a larger retailer such as Woolworths, Coles Meyer, Harvey Norman etc because the smaller, family owned business cannot get within cooee of the larger organisations prices or discounts?
4. Read "Choice" magazine?
Congratulations if you have done any of the above, as you are showing signs of being in control of your direction and destiny. What you have done is displayed "consumerism" in its raw form. You have chosen the product or service that has offered you either a bonus or at least a considerable saving to your hip pocket.
Referring to question 1: How do you think the family established service station is going to look upon the people who custom and work for the lower cost fuel distributor, knowing that because of his supply line and higher fixed costs he hasn't got a snowflakes chance in hell of getting within a bulls roar of the cheapies fuel prices. So what does he do? If he is savvy, he will play the game, but only partly. He will certainly drop his price a bit to compete, but he will value add to his product by ways and means to get more utilisation out of the whole site. ie; he will use the price of fuel to get more people in to get their car serviced, or he will have a bonus or incentive scheme where the customer ends up with an amount of fuel for a cetain service, or a certain amount of $$ spent in the shop over a certain time etc. He is now no longer concentrating on making a living out of just the fuel, but using it as a carrot to get the customers in.
Referring to question 2: Remember a time where locally made 5.8 ltr ford falcons and 350ci chev powered monaros and acres of sheet metal were all the rage back in the early 70's? Fuel was about 20-something cents a litre and "big cars for a big country" was the catch cry. There was no such animal as a small "Japanese" or "Korean" hatch, at least not in this country. Then along came the "Fuel Crisis" of the early-mid 70's. All of a sudden, big cars with big engines were dinosaurs in danger of extinction, and the rise of the Toyota Corolla sized vehicle was imminent. Holden and Ford tried to keep up with Escorts and 4 cyl Toranas, but the big winner were the Asian based importers who could supply the country with 1000's of low cost, small economical little buzz boxes and keep up with demand. Why did the demand go up for smaller cars? Consumers realised that they hurt the hip pocket less in many ways than does a larger locally made vehicle. The local manufactures had to scramble to ensure a supply of imported vehicles they could sell as one of their own, until they could ramp up production of a locally made small car, such as a Ford Laser or similar. Then in the 80's along came Hyundai, Daewoo and Kia etc. They yet again undercut the local manufacturers and set records in sales doing so. Why? Becuase of consumerism. The local manufactures have had to evolve yet again. Think of all of the people whose jobs came and went just like that with the market fluctuation.
Referring to question 3: That one is pretty well self explanitory. Why are small business butchers, electrical stores, music shops, small independent grocers, fruit and veg shops etc a dying breed? Large worldwide corporations are now in control of just about any aspect of how you shop, or indeed how much you pay for what you buy. Consumerism drives the average Joe and Josephine to shop where they can walk out with more in their trolley for less, and places like chemists etc are about to start feeling the pinch if Woolies gets their way. Companies like Woolies, McDonalds etc are well renowned for walking into a meeting with a supplier and slashing an already marginal price further to levels below profitability for the supplier, so business after business go belly up in the name of bringing cheaper prices to the consumer and record profits to the shareholder. Without being aware of it, you are playing into the hands of the large multinationals. Just ask our Tassie potato farmers what their thoughts are on dear old "Maccas".
Successive government policies have been leading to true Globalisation for many many years. This plays right into the hands of consumerism as it brings lower prices to the end user - the consumer. Every one of us is a consumer every day. What this means to an average Joe on the street is that he now has a much greater choice and range to choose from than he ever did previously.
In this day and age brand loyalty almost counts for almost nothing as the market is more focussed on being price driven. We have seen this in our industry as the rise of the low cost carrier. There is not a damned thing anyone in our position can do about it, except keep a tenacious hold upon our wages and conditions in the face of what will be a continued onslaught by successive management/s. Those who hold "pilot groups" soley responsible for the woes of pilots renumeration packages today are short sighted fools. Even the fact that there is a fractured assembly of representation groups has to realise that each group is/was trying to get the best for its main stakeholders.
They are right however when they say that it is the old foe who is responsible, "those above us who set direction".
The answer to your question Sandy is simple: There needs to be ONE organisation and one organisation only that represents THE WHOLE INDUSTRY all the way back to new CPL. Only then can the power of one be the power of many. It will cost some jobs at the lower end, but might just make the lower end more viable for a career, instead of going all the way. Think of the good you can do.....
OpsN
Will someone please explain to me however, how as a Qantas Mainline pilot I can stand by this sentiment whilst idly watching as the Jetstar organisation undermines my own. Jetstar pilots are greedily lapping up the opportunity to do the EXACT same thing as me for half the pay.
Can someone please tell me how I can reconcile this conundrum of wanting to work together whilst they white ant the industry?
Because I'm finding it very hard not to be bitter about watching my career disappear before my eyes whilst our industry is prostituted.
Can someone please tell me how I can reconcile this conundrum of wanting to work together whilst they white ant the industry?
Because I'm finding it very hard not to be bitter about watching my career disappear before my eyes whilst our industry is prostituted.
1. Have you ever filled your car at of the "cheapie" fuel distributors such as Liberty, Woolworths etc because the price is that much lower than the full service (or even the self serve) BP or Shell etc on the next corner?
2. Do you, or have you ever owned or entertained the thought of owning a small imported style vehicle such as a Hyundai, Opel or a Kia etc? Or even a small vehicle built by a company with a head office outside this country because you just don't want to pay for a larger locally made family car when an imported hatch will run around town at a lower cost (ie; do the same job)?
3. Do you shop for the most part at a larger retailer such as Woolworths, Coles Meyer, Harvey Norman etc because the smaller, family owned business cannot get within cooee of the larger organisations prices or discounts?
4. Read "Choice" magazine?
Congratulations if you have done any of the above, as you are showing signs of being in control of your direction and destiny. What you have done is displayed "consumerism" in its raw form. You have chosen the product or service that has offered you either a bonus or at least a considerable saving to your hip pocket.
Referring to question 1: How do you think the family established service station is going to look upon the people who custom and work for the lower cost fuel distributor, knowing that because of his supply line and higher fixed costs he hasn't got a snowflakes chance in hell of getting within a bulls roar of the cheapies fuel prices. So what does he do? If he is savvy, he will play the game, but only partly. He will certainly drop his price a bit to compete, but he will value add to his product by ways and means to get more utilisation out of the whole site. ie; he will use the price of fuel to get more people in to get their car serviced, or he will have a bonus or incentive scheme where the customer ends up with an amount of fuel for a cetain service, or a certain amount of $$ spent in the shop over a certain time etc. He is now no longer concentrating on making a living out of just the fuel, but using it as a carrot to get the customers in.
Referring to question 2: Remember a time where locally made 5.8 ltr ford falcons and 350ci chev powered monaros and acres of sheet metal were all the rage back in the early 70's? Fuel was about 20-something cents a litre and "big cars for a big country" was the catch cry. There was no such animal as a small "Japanese" or "Korean" hatch, at least not in this country. Then along came the "Fuel Crisis" of the early-mid 70's. All of a sudden, big cars with big engines were dinosaurs in danger of extinction, and the rise of the Toyota Corolla sized vehicle was imminent. Holden and Ford tried to keep up with Escorts and 4 cyl Toranas, but the big winner were the Asian based importers who could supply the country with 1000's of low cost, small economical little buzz boxes and keep up with demand. Why did the demand go up for smaller cars? Consumers realised that they hurt the hip pocket less in many ways than does a larger locally made vehicle. The local manufactures had to scramble to ensure a supply of imported vehicles they could sell as one of their own, until they could ramp up production of a locally made small car, such as a Ford Laser or similar. Then in the 80's along came Hyundai, Daewoo and Kia etc. They yet again undercut the local manufacturers and set records in sales doing so. Why? Becuase of consumerism. The local manufactures have had to evolve yet again. Think of all of the people whose jobs came and went just like that with the market fluctuation.
Referring to question 3: That one is pretty well self explanitory. Why are small business butchers, electrical stores, music shops, small independent grocers, fruit and veg shops etc a dying breed? Large worldwide corporations are now in control of just about any aspect of how you shop, or indeed how much you pay for what you buy. Consumerism drives the average Joe and Josephine to shop where they can walk out with more in their trolley for less, and places like chemists etc are about to start feeling the pinch if Woolies gets their way. Companies like Woolies, McDonalds etc are well renowned for walking into a meeting with a supplier and slashing an already marginal price further to levels below profitability for the supplier, so business after business go belly up in the name of bringing cheaper prices to the consumer and record profits to the shareholder. Without being aware of it, you are playing into the hands of the large multinationals. Just ask our Tassie potato farmers what their thoughts are on dear old "Maccas".
Successive government policies have been leading to true Globalisation for many many years. This plays right into the hands of consumerism as it brings lower prices to the end user - the consumer. Every one of us is a consumer every day. What this means to an average Joe on the street is that he now has a much greater choice and range to choose from than he ever did previously.
In this day and age brand loyalty almost counts for almost nothing as the market is more focussed on being price driven. We have seen this in our industry as the rise of the low cost carrier. There is not a damned thing anyone in our position can do about it, except keep a tenacious hold upon our wages and conditions in the face of what will be a continued onslaught by successive management/s. Those who hold "pilot groups" soley responsible for the woes of pilots renumeration packages today are short sighted fools. Even the fact that there is a fractured assembly of representation groups has to realise that each group is/was trying to get the best for its main stakeholders.
They are right however when they say that it is the old foe who is responsible, "those above us who set direction".
The answer to your question Sandy is simple: There needs to be ONE organisation and one organisation only that represents THE WHOLE INDUSTRY all the way back to new CPL. Only then can the power of one be the power of many. It will cost some jobs at the lower end, but might just make the lower end more viable for a career, instead of going all the way. Think of the good you can do.....
OpsN
I think tipping should be introduced on Low Cost Carriers. A tipping jar or poor box should be placed at the front and back of the aircraft. Disembarking passengers happy with service above and beyond the call of their $59 airfare, could make tips in appreciation. The proceeds could be then divided amongst the crew.
Once it catches on, crews could nett a few hundred dollars per sector- tax free! Now average this over 4 F/A's, two pilots and four sectors and presto, with my initiative, Low Cost pilots are now receiving a DTA equivalent ( J* allowanceless in my understanding ) and bridging the gap between their conditions an the more fortunates at QF.
I have noted little old ladies on J*/VB flights offering to buy the " boys up front " a Coke or cup of tea - don't underestimate the compassion of the travelling public toward Low Cost aviation.
Once it catches on, crews could nett a few hundred dollars per sector- tax free! Now average this over 4 F/A's, two pilots and four sectors and presto, with my initiative, Low Cost pilots are now receiving a DTA equivalent ( J* allowanceless in my understanding ) and bridging the gap between their conditions an the more fortunates at QF.
I have noted little old ladies on J*/VB flights offering to buy the " boys up front " a Coke or cup of tea - don't underestimate the compassion of the travelling public toward Low Cost aviation.
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QUESTIONS-:
Why are there two groups representing Pilots ie. AFAP and AIPA (besides the obvious)?
What does one offer a select few that the other dosnt offer to the rest of the industry?
Isnt this an example of the "divide and conquer" rule?
What has the other done for the "bottom end" of the industry?
What has the one for the select few done for their sector of the industry (seems that those particular pilots are still winging about pay and conditions)?
Maybe these have already been contested time and time again on these forums, I just have not checked.
on a further note - no, I dont subscribe to either of these groups, and find it hard to justify the expence as I cant see the advantage at present - pilots are still squabbling over pay and conditions. Furthermore, I cant see that it will change in the near (5 years or more) future. Call it naive, stupid or whatever, but I do pay full comprehensive insurance on my car just in case I need to make a claim though!
Just some genuine questions, require some genuine answers, not the bullshyte that flows freely from pi$$ed off pilots!
Cheers, and KEEP SMILING SUNSHINERS!!
Ace
Why are there two groups representing Pilots ie. AFAP and AIPA (besides the obvious)?
What does one offer a select few that the other dosnt offer to the rest of the industry?
Isnt this an example of the "divide and conquer" rule?
What has the other done for the "bottom end" of the industry?
What has the one for the select few done for their sector of the industry (seems that those particular pilots are still winging about pay and conditions)?
Maybe these have already been contested time and time again on these forums, I just have not checked.
on a further note - no, I dont subscribe to either of these groups, and find it hard to justify the expence as I cant see the advantage at present - pilots are still squabbling over pay and conditions. Furthermore, I cant see that it will change in the near (5 years or more) future. Call it naive, stupid or whatever, but I do pay full comprehensive insurance on my car just in case I need to make a claim though!
Just some genuine questions, require some genuine answers, not the bullshyte that flows freely from pi$$ed off pilots!
Cheers, and KEEP SMILING SUNSHINERS!!
Ace
Last edited by Ace on Base; 26th Aug 2005 at 01:01.
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A well though out reply, Ops. There are a couple of issues that are at stake here, and they illustrate the differences between the industries that you speak of.
1. I didn't work all my life, studying, being checked physically and mentally, to become a service station operator, car manufacturer or work at Woolworths. I am a pilot, I slaved to get to the top of my trade, and now that I'm there, J* pilots come along and undermine and undervalue the trade in the manner of a prostitute? Forgive me for being bitter.
2. You get what you pay for. The pundits will shriek in horror at this statement. It's a simple formula. You pay the better dollars, you get the better people. Now this has been debated time and again on this forum, and there are those who will denigrate the QF recruiting process etc etc. Thats all fine, no recruiting process is perfect, BUT, the simple fact of the matter is that the better people WILL leave in search of better money. WHY? Because they can. This leaves those who are willing to accept such money, for whatever reason. Jetstar.
Your comparison, Ops, is a good one, but should be viewed appropriately.
A better comparison may be: Do you want to contract out Ambo's or Firies to lesser paid individuals? The answer is no, because your life may be in their hands. Same goes for pilots.
So. The offer is out there. Is there ANY Jetstar pilot who is willing to "Join as One" to improve the cause. I think not because they are only out for themselves.
That is why this thread is rather ironic at this point in time. The Jetstar guys are hell bent on "white anting" the entire industry for their own benefit, and to the substantial detriment of current and future Australian pilots. It's hard NOT to be bitter, divisive and disgusted at their behaviour.
1. I didn't work all my life, studying, being checked physically and mentally, to become a service station operator, car manufacturer or work at Woolworths. I am a pilot, I slaved to get to the top of my trade, and now that I'm there, J* pilots come along and undermine and undervalue the trade in the manner of a prostitute? Forgive me for being bitter.
2. You get what you pay for. The pundits will shriek in horror at this statement. It's a simple formula. You pay the better dollars, you get the better people. Now this has been debated time and again on this forum, and there are those who will denigrate the QF recruiting process etc etc. Thats all fine, no recruiting process is perfect, BUT, the simple fact of the matter is that the better people WILL leave in search of better money. WHY? Because they can. This leaves those who are willing to accept such money, for whatever reason. Jetstar.
Your comparison, Ops, is a good one, but should be viewed appropriately.
A better comparison may be: Do you want to contract out Ambo's or Firies to lesser paid individuals? The answer is no, because your life may be in their hands. Same goes for pilots.
So. The offer is out there. Is there ANY Jetstar pilot who is willing to "Join as One" to improve the cause. I think not because they are only out for themselves.
That is why this thread is rather ironic at this point in time. The Jetstar guys are hell bent on "white anting" the entire industry for their own benefit, and to the substantial detriment of current and future Australian pilots. It's hard NOT to be bitter, divisive and disgusted at their behaviour.
Sandy
A J* F/O can get a 40% payrise and an airline command to undercut your pay and pinch your career path. He will not fall on his sword for you.
You and AIPA need to get smarter.
Personally, as a QF S/O, I wouldn't be budgeting on present long haul command pay.
A J* F/O can get a 40% payrise and an airline command to undercut your pay and pinch your career path. He will not fall on his sword for you.
You and AIPA need to get smarter.
Personally, as a QF S/O, I wouldn't be budgeting on present long haul command pay.
Join Date: Jun 2005
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You and AIPA need to get smarter.
Management are laughing both at us in mainline, and at the J* guys propensity to bend over and get reamed!
So, if we in mainline take industrial action, then management tell us to get stuffed, sack us all, and tell Jetstar to fly the lot 'cos they're cheap.
I feel like a deer stuck in headlights....