Why you should pay for your endorsement!
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Lucky I've got a thick skin....
I don't like the trend towards paying for endorsements but I can understand some of the argument in favour.
I do find it interesting that much is said on these fora about a company's responsibility to its employees, and how they should pay for the training costs, and how if they treated us better we'd all be happy and stay for ever.
But naff all is mentioned about our reciprocal responsibilty to give a fair return of service.
Who knows, maybe if there wasn't a history of folks leaving for greener pastures shortly after accepting the training dollars, and I can think of many in just the 10 years of service with my current employer, then just maybe we wouldn't be in the position of having to pay for endorsements now.
Maybe we would but will we ever know?
I don't like the trend towards paying for endorsements but I can understand some of the argument in favour.
I do find it interesting that much is said on these fora about a company's responsibility to its employees, and how they should pay for the training costs, and how if they treated us better we'd all be happy and stay for ever.
But naff all is mentioned about our reciprocal responsibilty to give a fair return of service.
Who knows, maybe if there wasn't a history of folks leaving for greener pastures shortly after accepting the training dollars, and I can think of many in just the 10 years of service with my current employer, then just maybe we wouldn't be in the position of having to pay for endorsements now.
Maybe we would but will we ever know?
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It gets to the stage where the question amongst recruiters will be, " this guy is a far better candidate but cannot afford the endorsement but this guy wont make as good an employee and his Daddy is loaded......."
Which decision do you think the company will make?
By employing only those that can afford the endorsement does not put all pilots on an equal footing.
Just ask that individual that has a wife and kids, possibly a mortgage and no hope of an extra $25,000 loan.
What hope does he have?
In essence in this case that individual is effectively being discriminated against for commercial reasons and the fact that he/she cannot afford an endorsement.
I agree that if it is to be done that the bonding system is a better answer.
Leave within say 3-5 years and the company will zap you for an agreed amount (pro-rated of course).
Otherwise I believe the "pay for your own endorsement" to be a flawed system that discriminates against those that cannot for whatever reason afford it.
Imagine in Australia having to "pay" for a job in say the public service or the military?
What about having to pay a tradesman money to become an apprentice?
How long would that be tolerated by mainstream society.
Get real here guys.
Which decision do you think the company will make?
By employing only those that can afford the endorsement does not put all pilots on an equal footing.
Just ask that individual that has a wife and kids, possibly a mortgage and no hope of an extra $25,000 loan.
What hope does he have?
In essence in this case that individual is effectively being discriminated against for commercial reasons and the fact that he/she cannot afford an endorsement.
I agree that if it is to be done that the bonding system is a better answer.
Leave within say 3-5 years and the company will zap you for an agreed amount (pro-rated of course).
Otherwise I believe the "pay for your own endorsement" to be a flawed system that discriminates against those that cannot for whatever reason afford it.
Imagine in Australia having to "pay" for a job in say the public service or the military?
What about having to pay a tradesman money to become an apprentice?
How long would that be tolerated by mainstream society.
Get real here guys.
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Hi Guys
I have just received an invitation to participate in stage two, and am seriously contemplating whether I really want to continue with the application.
I am married with child and no mortgage, yet still really can't afford the endorsement, especially as I really only wanted to stay flying those aircraft for maximum five years before maybe stepping up (and then needing to pay for another endorsement!)
I have just received an invitation to participate in stage two, and am seriously contemplating whether I really want to continue with the application.
I am married with child and no mortgage, yet still really can't afford the endorsement, especially as I really only wanted to stay flying those aircraft for maximum five years before maybe stepping up (and then needing to pay for another endorsement!)
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1013,
Get real yourself! What about the person that has all the great qualities of a fine pilot but can't get the dollars for a CPL and IREX?
Bear in mind the whole supply and demand idea! Companies will shaft employees any which way they can to improve their bottom line. ANY EMPLOYEES.... The sooner pilots realize that they are employees just like everyone else and not removed from any of these games the sooner we can move on and bury these pointless threads!
I mean honestly.... Can you see us going on strike? bwahhhahahah.... U think management aren't having a great old laugh at us?...."Hahaha EBA..... What are they gonna do?...go on strike?"
Airlines once sponsored cadets, paid for instrument ratings, paid for SCPL subjects, issued Navbags, blah blah blah. It dont happen no more and dont expect it to improve until the goverment does something about workers coming to OZ at any cost We can expect the locals to follow suit and then we can all sit back and watch our cashcow keel over and die!
Sure play your games, refuse to sign a bond, dont pay for an endorsement, whatever. There will be a thousand Kiwis just lining up to do what you refuse to do!
So take your pick, feed your family after paying a tax deductible training fee or watch our kiwi mates live the life at bondi while you stay "moral" living in blacktown with 3 other Dash8 FOs!
bbbbbbbzzzzzzzzbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Get real yourself! What about the person that has all the great qualities of a fine pilot but can't get the dollars for a CPL and IREX?
Bear in mind the whole supply and demand idea! Companies will shaft employees any which way they can to improve their bottom line. ANY EMPLOYEES.... The sooner pilots realize that they are employees just like everyone else and not removed from any of these games the sooner we can move on and bury these pointless threads!
I mean honestly.... Can you see us going on strike? bwahhhahahah.... U think management aren't having a great old laugh at us?...."Hahaha EBA..... What are they gonna do?...go on strike?"
Airlines once sponsored cadets, paid for instrument ratings, paid for SCPL subjects, issued Navbags, blah blah blah. It dont happen no more and dont expect it to improve until the goverment does something about workers coming to OZ at any cost We can expect the locals to follow suit and then we can all sit back and watch our cashcow keel over and die!
Sure play your games, refuse to sign a bond, dont pay for an endorsement, whatever. There will be a thousand Kiwis just lining up to do what you refuse to do!
So take your pick, feed your family after paying a tax deductible training fee or watch our kiwi mates live the life at bondi while you stay "moral" living in blacktown with 3 other Dash8 FOs!
bbbbbbbzzzzzzzzbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Mr Buzzy
Do you have to pay for sex too?
You sure do need to get the buy a job stigma of your chest don't you?
At least have a crack at upholding conditions of service. Waving the white flag so willingly to justify your own circumstances, the veritable cop out for the rest of us having a bit of a go.
Do you have to pay for sex too?
You sure do need to get the buy a job stigma of your chest don't you?
At least have a crack at upholding conditions of service. Waving the white flag so willingly to justify your own circumstances, the veritable cop out for the rest of us having a bit of a go.
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Paying for airline endorsements to obtain employment is just another way of lowering the bar.
It must give them a good laugh in the boardrooms.
Hands up! - Who wants to pay the company to let you fly their aircraft.
Bloody comical when you think about it but it does make for some good performance bonuses.
And if their stupid enough to do that give them a 50% pay cut , up the hours, dress them in uniforms out of a corn flakes packet and get them to pay for them.
Now - where is that performance bonus. We have saved millions and would like to keep a couple of them.
Keep up the good work - people rely on those 50 dollar seats.
It must give them a good laugh in the boardrooms.
Hands up! - Who wants to pay the company to let you fly their aircraft.
Bloody comical when you think about it but it does make for some good performance bonuses.
And if their stupid enough to do that give them a 50% pay cut , up the hours, dress them in uniforms out of a corn flakes packet and get them to pay for them.
Now - where is that performance bonus. We have saved millions and would like to keep a couple of them.
Keep up the good work - people rely on those 50 dollar seats.
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Hey Chilli, speaking of performance bonus'. And this is copyrighted in 2 hemispheres, only take skippers who are willing to pay for a rating, pay em 10-15% more than what they get now and lose the guy in the right seat altogether. These things are so easy to fly nowadays single crew boeingbus shouldn't be a problem, or if you must, just grab a grade 3 instructor from down the scare-o-club and have him fork over some cash to operate the radio, he'll have a radio licence (seen one you seen them all) and nothing better to do, maybe make him pay for the seat too ! 15 bucks a sector or something should be about right 
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Why stop at making pilot's pay for their endorsement training?
As this practice doesn't inspire loyalty, surely the next step is to bond pilots on top of this.
And why stop there? I'm sure there are pilots who would pay for the privilege of FO time.
While you're at it, pilot's will pay for uniforms, crew meals, car parking, and on going check and training.
So...what's wrong with making pilot's Pay for endorsement training???
As this practice doesn't inspire loyalty, surely the next step is to bond pilots on top of this.
And why stop there? I'm sure there are pilots who would pay for the privilege of FO time.
While you're at it, pilot's will pay for uniforms, crew meals, car parking, and on going check and training.
So...what's wrong with making pilot's Pay for endorsement training???
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So its from an economic viewpoint that there is a requirement to pay for the training? Hmmmmm?
Lets take a job with a fairly reputable 135 operator (training paid for by the company)..... A couple of type ratings on company a/c, a few hours famil. on said types, accociated comp checks lets say $4-5k
Take a job with a buy your own rating on a turbine of sorts.... How bout instead of having to pay the 10k endo. the operator states is due to economics, they pay 5k you pay 5k, surely they are not mis-managed to the point the cannot even match what the GA operator is paying?????
Alternatively how bout..... "We arent financially strong and have a high staff turn over for whaterver reason" Well give you the endorsement, and pay you 45kgross p.a. but take off 5k per year till 10k is paid back?
Better still - go the bond.
Lets take a job with a fairly reputable 135 operator (training paid for by the company)..... A couple of type ratings on company a/c, a few hours famil. on said types, accociated comp checks lets say $4-5k
Take a job with a buy your own rating on a turbine of sorts.... How bout instead of having to pay the 10k endo. the operator states is due to economics, they pay 5k you pay 5k, surely they are not mis-managed to the point the cannot even match what the GA operator is paying?????
Alternatively how bout..... "We arent financially strong and have a high staff turn over for whaterver reason" Well give you the endorsement, and pay you 45kgross p.a. but take off 5k per year till 10k is paid back?
Better still - go the bond.
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Gnadenburg - good analogy about Mr Buzzy having to pay for sex also!
Psycho Joe hit the nail on the head when he stated the point that next, people such as Mr Buzzy (sadly no longer tolerated on this forum) will be expected to pay for uniforms, crew meals, airport parking as well as paying a privilege to fly the bosses aircraft!!!!
I suppose Mr Buzzy will gladly endorse these practices and assume the position willingly!
While we're at it why dont we get Flight Attendants and Engineers to pay for their training also!!!
Where does it all end???
I stand by my reasonable argument that the bonding system is much more practical, reasonable and fair.
Companies that expect pilots to pay for their endorsements must be rubbing their hands together thinking that pilots are fools and will treat them accordingly.
Psycho Joe hit the nail on the head when he stated the point that next, people such as Mr Buzzy (sadly no longer tolerated on this forum) will be expected to pay for uniforms, crew meals, airport parking as well as paying a privilege to fly the bosses aircraft!!!!
I suppose Mr Buzzy will gladly endorse these practices and assume the position willingly!
While we're at it why dont we get Flight Attendants and Engineers to pay for their training also!!!
Where does it all end???
I stand by my reasonable argument that the bonding system is much more practical, reasonable and fair.
Companies that expect pilots to pay for their endorsements must be rubbing their hands together thinking that pilots are fools and will treat them accordingly.
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At Netjets we are still "paying" for the sins of the past.
Netjets used to be a Pay For Training (PFT) operation and in the late '90s they stopped doing it due to the low participation rate and low average experience levels they were getting.
The problem is that we still aren't getting paid fair market value for our services, and many of the PFT pilots are really now only aware of the damage they did by paying $8,000 plus for a $28,000 starting salary on a Citation II. Many of these same crew now see NBAA salaries up in the $US130,000 for a base salary on a Citation X.
What will happen in Australia is exactly the same as happened here at Netjets. We now have to make an enormous effort to restore the balance with a concerted effort on the part of our union. The management obviously cannot believe that we all want to make six figures and only time will tell if this works out, or if we end up going on strike.
Its possible to make good overtime rates here at Netjets and if you do, you can make good money, but never be home.
We are still having many experienced applicants turn down job offers here due to the terrible starting salary and our company has now reached a point where we are short staffed.
This whole debacle started with pilots who paid for a job, believing their skills were worth next to nothing, who just wanted to say they flew a jet for a living. It has been a thorn in the side of every operator in the country since.
Netjets used to be a Pay For Training (PFT) operation and in the late '90s they stopped doing it due to the low participation rate and low average experience levels they were getting.
The problem is that we still aren't getting paid fair market value for our services, and many of the PFT pilots are really now only aware of the damage they did by paying $8,000 plus for a $28,000 starting salary on a Citation II. Many of these same crew now see NBAA salaries up in the $US130,000 for a base salary on a Citation X.
What will happen in Australia is exactly the same as happened here at Netjets. We now have to make an enormous effort to restore the balance with a concerted effort on the part of our union. The management obviously cannot believe that we all want to make six figures and only time will tell if this works out, or if we end up going on strike.
Its possible to make good overtime rates here at Netjets and if you do, you can make good money, but never be home.
We are still having many experienced applicants turn down job offers here due to the terrible starting salary and our company has now reached a point where we are short staffed.
This whole debacle started with pilots who paid for a job, believing their skills were worth next to nothing, who just wanted to say they flew a jet for a living. It has been a thorn in the side of every operator in the country since.
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This whole debacle started with pilots who paid for a job, believing their skills were worth next to nothing, who just wanted to say they flew a jet for a living. It has been a thorn in the side of every operator in the country since.
Well said Chris.
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Give it time folks, as I believe there are already a number of "low cost" airlines in the UK who charge their crews for all their training and checking requirements. Only a matter of time before aussie management realise that they can start using that process here to.
Imagine........there you are; 10 years with an airline, do your prof check in a sim only to recieve a bill for $2500 a week later. How about five hunjie for an EP's renewal ?? Or better still, three hunjie to have an amendment service on your ops manuals !!
Imagine........there you are; 10 years with an airline, do your prof check in a sim only to recieve a bill for $2500 a week later. How about five hunjie for an EP's renewal ?? Or better still, three hunjie to have an amendment service on your ops manuals !!
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A bit for everyone
1013
You say'what would happen if government personnel had to pay for there training. Fair enough question, but if the entire government went on strike then the tax payer would have to fit the bill, otherwise we would end up like the Phillipines and have a corrupt government. Anyway, what if all the G.A and regional pilots went on strike..what would happen?....I'll tell you...NOTHING. NOT the people, NOT the government would prop up G.A. They would keep there major airlines going in a crisis and leave the rest to rot. The people of this country are more concerned with Health care and house prices/interest rates...then the national transportation system.
Let me give you an example. What members of the community stand up for the conditions of doctors and truck drivers. NOBODY!... they both work terrible hours. I can't think of one person I have ever meet who would rather go hungry or get stranded; as a result of a shortage of fuel or food; in order to let the POOR truck drivers work an 8 hour day rather than a 22 hour shift. Likewise with doctors.
....Humm, nurse I'll just sit outside and bleed to death just so your "doctor on call" can complete his 8 hour rest period!
Back to the topic!
The problem here is that the employers are suffering just as the employees are. When was the last time the cost of doing aviation business actually dropped. The government keeps administering more red tape and it is the operator who has to fit the bill. This is simply a matter of employees having to chip in.
The unfortunate issue is that when people get TAXED and administereed too much they throw their MORALS out the window.
The winners in this are those who have short-term interests in aviation..like executives, government employees and shareholders. It is the dedicated workers and owners who fail to benefit. Thats capitalism.
Pilots paying for endorsements is a product of a segregated industry and no political/community concern for the viability of Australian aviation.
I'm sure those that survive this next twenty years are going to be large concerns with good business managers. I can't see small business in aviation getting any relief.
As for my opinion on paying for an endorsement and bonding! Well I think it is a matter of choice for the individual.
There was a time when you had job security just because you were a hard worker....there was also a time when a gentlemans agreement was his reputation...now it is just a simple handshake...doesn't mean much!
Its just a sign of the times folkes!
My two cents
U2
You say'what would happen if government personnel had to pay for there training. Fair enough question, but if the entire government went on strike then the tax payer would have to fit the bill, otherwise we would end up like the Phillipines and have a corrupt government. Anyway, what if all the G.A and regional pilots went on strike..what would happen?....I'll tell you...NOTHING. NOT the people, NOT the government would prop up G.A. They would keep there major airlines going in a crisis and leave the rest to rot. The people of this country are more concerned with Health care and house prices/interest rates...then the national transportation system.
Let me give you an example. What members of the community stand up for the conditions of doctors and truck drivers. NOBODY!... they both work terrible hours. I can't think of one person I have ever meet who would rather go hungry or get stranded; as a result of a shortage of fuel or food; in order to let the POOR truck drivers work an 8 hour day rather than a 22 hour shift. Likewise with doctors.
....Humm, nurse I'll just sit outside and bleed to death just so your "doctor on call" can complete his 8 hour rest period!
Back to the topic!
The problem here is that the employers are suffering just as the employees are. When was the last time the cost of doing aviation business actually dropped. The government keeps administering more red tape and it is the operator who has to fit the bill. This is simply a matter of employees having to chip in.
The unfortunate issue is that when people get TAXED and administereed too much they throw their MORALS out the window.
The winners in this are those who have short-term interests in aviation..like executives, government employees and shareholders. It is the dedicated workers and owners who fail to benefit. Thats capitalism.
Pilots paying for endorsements is a product of a segregated industry and no political/community concern for the viability of Australian aviation.
I'm sure those that survive this next twenty years are going to be large concerns with good business managers. I can't see small business in aviation getting any relief.
As for my opinion on paying for an endorsement and bonding! Well I think it is a matter of choice for the individual.
There was a time when you had job security just because you were a hard worker....there was also a time when a gentlemans agreement was his reputation...now it is just a simple handshake...doesn't mean much!
Its just a sign of the times folkes!
My two cents
U2
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IMHO This whole argument about paying for endorsements versus bonding is completely missing the point. No matter how hard you try you can't force someone to be loyal.
If you look after your pilots with good T&C then you wouldn't need to force/bond/entrap pilots into some sort of loyalty facade.
Even the Us army are learning that no matter how often you hit people with a rifle butt, kick down their door and threaten to shoot their missus......Some of them still wont be grateful.
If you look after your pilots with good T&C then you wouldn't need to force/bond/entrap pilots into some sort of loyalty facade.
Even the Us army are learning that no matter how often you hit people with a rifle butt, kick down their door and threaten to shoot their missus......Some of them still wont be grateful.
Last edited by psycho joe; 29th Jul 2005 at 10:03.
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maattj.....like my dad used to say mate....Hand of your cock...feet in your socks!!!!!...who made you pay the 90k for your flight training....if it was the mongrel mob then you are forgiven....other than that it is your choice,aviation owes you nothing.....like the rest of us,do your time, dont scab,and enjoy what you are doing.....digging holes for the city council sucks!!!!!!.....I could tell you a few stories myself,but pissing into the wind gets you soaked ......I been held to several training contracts,that have never been enfoceable,but the ones Ive had,Ive done the proper thing by staying until Id completed my terms,nobody forced me to signed the dotted line......Ireckon it all boils down to the type of person/pilot you are......the "knighthood" thing.....how about a hand job....you have to be joking...kia kaha
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I think it would be only reasonable to ask for the same loyalty and commitment from all employees in an organisation - including management.
Management positions often have quite a high turnover due to new executives arriving from an unrelated field, then seeing out a short stint, getting the best they can for themselves and then quickly moving onto a different, unrelated next job they promises them greener pastures - I believe they should have to pay for their own endorsement to be trained and 'proficient' in their 'airline management position' from the moment they set foot in the company. Without this 'recognised training they would be ineligible for a position in airline management. I guarantee that it would stop the normal flow through of the pig’s snouts in the troughs for a big feed before quickly moving onto the next trough!!
Maybe we could have management bonded for a period that is commensurate with the amount of bonus that they took so they can give some service to the company?
Just another perspective.
Management positions often have quite a high turnover due to new executives arriving from an unrelated field, then seeing out a short stint, getting the best they can for themselves and then quickly moving onto a different, unrelated next job they promises them greener pastures - I believe they should have to pay for their own endorsement to be trained and 'proficient' in their 'airline management position' from the moment they set foot in the company. Without this 'recognised training they would be ineligible for a position in airline management. I guarantee that it would stop the normal flow through of the pig’s snouts in the troughs for a big feed before quickly moving onto the next trough!!
Maybe we could have management bonded for a period that is commensurate with the amount of bonus that they took so they can give some service to the company?
Just another perspective.
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I was chatting with a senior QF Capt recently at a social function, and he advised that QF recruits will be required to pay for their initial endorsement in the not too distant future. Upgrades will be met by the company.
In QF's defence, if a company is seeking, say, a vet with particular experience, they expect that he will have that experience, or will secure it at his expense. Simple, so why should pilots be any different.
I don't agree with it, but I see it going that way. Fortunately I don't have too many years left in this pharqed industry
In QF's defence, if a company is seeking, say, a vet with particular experience, they expect that he will have that experience, or will secure it at his expense. Simple, so why should pilots be any different.
I don't agree with it, but I see it going that way. Fortunately I don't have too many years left in this pharqed industry
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could,nt agree more with the previous posts.....the company I am with now has no training contract....the type rating on the A-320 they tell me is worth about $60,000 all up ...ie ground school,sim time,type check,I.O.E...they have asked for nothing,the only restriction being a freeze on that equipment for 2 yrs,,...that being based on the fact that is how long it will take to get there $dosh$ back plus some....if you leave you leave ...with the type!!!!!trainning contracts have been around for years,regional airlines have had them but enforcement has always been hard......and you are right ,you a seeing a lot more....why....obviously the cost,and secondly,not all but many pilots have taken the training and run...you can only get burnt so many times.....take a good look at Southwest Airlines.....you must be typed in the 737 to even get an interview...who pays for that? ....the pilots do!!!! a small price to pay for a good paying,dedicated pilot group.......true,they are few and far between.....for those of us who have been flying for 20+ yrs,..the attitude has always been.....they pay,we dont...they are bloody lucky to have us(guilty as charged)...those days are gone ........what I see happening now is.....eg I had a young fella (f/0) last week.....low time(2900Hrs..TT)$80,000 in dept due to his training,uiniverity studies,etc,etc etc....pissing and moaning that he has done his time and should be in the left seat NOW!!!!!.....THIS BLOKE WILL DO ANYTHING TO GET TO THE LEFT SEAT.....this profession is losing its loyalty and respect because of the conditions these types of blokes are placing on themselves.....I dont belive this is the case for the majority,but there is a huge minority,guilty of this........personally I detest training contracts,but they at least provide short-lived loyalty....whether you agree or not,that is the state a lot of you/me are in......kia kaha