Metro and Autopilot?
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Join Date: Jul 2004
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Metro and Autopilot?
This prob belongs in Q's, but is the metro the only a/c flying RPT in Australia without an autopilot?
Skippers and Rex don't have autopilots either. Is this because one cannot be fitted to this a/c type or is it cost related?
Should it be mandatory to have an autopilot on all RPT aircraft (even with two crew)?
Skippers and Rex don't have autopilots either. Is this because one cannot be fitted to this a/c type or is it cost related?
Should it be mandatory to have an autopilot on all RPT aircraft (even with two crew)?
Sprucegoose
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I think you might find O'Connors Jetstreams don't have them either!!
How do these guys cope?
Cheers, HH.
How do these guys cope?
Cheers, HH.
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Have a look at your cao/r's . A metro can carry 19 pax , any more than 15 and you need a f/a . If u have an f/o this covers this requirement. therfore u dont need an auto[pliot= less expense to company
Bottums Up
The old Sunstate Shed's didn't have auto pilot, nor the even older Pterodactyl (Nord262/Mohawk298) of Lloyd Avn QLD/QLD Pacific/Southern Pacific/Majestic.
Even in the DH8 and 146 the autopilot can be mel'd, just means different minima required in some cases.
Even in the DH8 and 146 the autopilot can be mel'd, just means different minima required in some cases.
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Once heard a figure of 250 grand being suggested for a Metro a/p, so I guess in some cases the cost would also be a factor. I guess not a big worry though as was said the operators have two pilots on these a/c....
Now is this figure to be doubled in the case of needing two autopilots, or is it one unit with two channels? (or whatever they call it, don't pretend to know much about this sort of thing)
Now is this figure to be doubled in the case of needing two autopilots, or is it one unit with two channels? (or whatever they call it, don't pretend to know much about this sort of thing)
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I think you will find that aircraft like the Metro and Jetstream were originally ordered by the US regionals, who were required by their ops rules to have two pilots - the Jetstream is actually 2 pilot certificated and can't be operated single pilot anway.
The thought was that if they had to pay for two pilots then they were not going to pay extra for an autopilot too.
Because these aircraft were SFAR41c and latterly FAR23CC there was no certificating reason for an a/p as per FAR25. So the pilots (and pax) lost out!
Retro cost these days are approaching 50% of hull value - so not really economic.
The thought was that if they had to pay for two pilots then they were not going to pay extra for an autopilot too.
Because these aircraft were SFAR41c and latterly FAR23CC there was no certificating reason for an a/p as per FAR25. So the pilots (and pax) lost out!
Retro cost these days are approaching 50% of hull value - so not really economic.
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Ah the 1900D don't have em either!
While it wasn't really an option, such is being part of an international alliance, the choice could have been dunny or autopilot for ours.
Gold plated both considering price!
Heard a mill each.
Gold plated both considering price!
Heard a mill each.
An autopilot means extra weight and cost, so if you have to have two pilots, and an AP is not then required some operators would rather save money by making you work for your salary.
Single pilot, an AP is required and for night freight when it's not so busy it's a better alternative. However if flying into SY during peak times give me an F/O anyday. Also the take off minima is reduced with an f/o or autofeather. However CAT 2 approaches (n/a in Oz) may require an A/P.
It all comes down to the type of operation and of course $$$$$$ at the end of the day.
Single pilot, an AP is required and for night freight when it's not so busy it's a better alternative. However if flying into SY during peak times give me an F/O anyday. Also the take off minima is reduced with an f/o or autofeather. However CAT 2 approaches (n/a in Oz) may require an A/P.
It all comes down to the type of operation and of course $$$$$$ at the end of the day.
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FO = Flap Operator
I don't think that Pearl Aviation Metro's have Autopilots either, so they use Flap Operators instead as well.
I heard from one guy in the know that a contibuting factor in addition to those above is that due to the controls being so 'heavy', the servos in the autopilots wear out a lot quicker, so it becomes an ongoing maintenance expense, not to mention the bulk expense of fitting one in the first place.
I'd hate to have to fly a Texas Sewerage Pipe with the 'poverty pack' (no autopilot or toilet) in less than desireable wxr into a busy CTR anyway, as some have stated above.
520.
I heard from one guy in the know that a contibuting factor in addition to those above is that due to the controls being so 'heavy', the servos in the autopilots wear out a lot quicker, so it becomes an ongoing maintenance expense, not to mention the bulk expense of fitting one in the first place.
I'd hate to have to fly a Texas Sewerage Pipe with the 'poverty pack' (no autopilot or toilet) in less than desireable wxr into a busy CTR anyway, as some have stated above.
520.
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Add Bandits and Twin otters to the list.
An autopilot for a J31/J32 adds about 40-50kg to the operating weight.
You will find most commuter aircraft, such as the Metro 3/23, B1900's and J31/J32's that have been purchased second hand from the US will not be fitted with an autopilot. The commuter/regional airlines in the USA when they purchased their aircraft brand new(in the 80's & 90's) all thought the same, two pilots, why the need for an autopilot.
Now if you look in Europe you will find a very large percentage (80+%) of the regional/commuter airlines who purchased their commuter aircraft brand new, chose to fit autopilots to their aircraft.
Impulse when they purchased their 1900D's also fitted autopilots, TAA and Skywest when the purchased the J31's in the 80's also fitted autopilots.
Now in the 2005 no company is building 19 seat aircraft, so if you are in the market for a 19 seat aircraft 99% of the time you will end up purchasing an aircraft that was operated by a commuter/regional airlines in the USA and has spent the last few years parked. If you want to spend (have the money to spend) you will find lower time and better equiped (autopilot etc) aircraft for sale in Europe.
An autopilot for a J31/J32 adds about 40-50kg to the operating weight.
You will find most commuter aircraft, such as the Metro 3/23, B1900's and J31/J32's that have been purchased second hand from the US will not be fitted with an autopilot. The commuter/regional airlines in the USA when they purchased their aircraft brand new(in the 80's & 90's) all thought the same, two pilots, why the need for an autopilot.
Now if you look in Europe you will find a very large percentage (80+%) of the regional/commuter airlines who purchased their commuter aircraft brand new, chose to fit autopilots to their aircraft.
Impulse when they purchased their 1900D's also fitted autopilots, TAA and Skywest when the purchased the J31's in the 80's also fitted autopilots.
Now in the 2005 no company is building 19 seat aircraft, so if you are in the market for a 19 seat aircraft 99% of the time you will end up purchasing an aircraft that was operated by a commuter/regional airlines in the USA and has spent the last few years parked. If you want to spend (have the money to spend) you will find lower time and better equiped (autopilot etc) aircraft for sale in Europe.
Airlink in Dubbo don't have an autopilot on their 1900D either.
As someone has said earlier, if you didn't have the coey you'd still need an F/A for pax ops. The cost savings make sense to me, plus provides a good training ground for guys to move up to a command eventually.
TL
As someone has said earlier, if you didn't have the coey you'd still need an F/A for pax ops. The cost savings make sense to me, plus provides a good training ground for guys to move up to a command eventually.
TL
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A/P was always a factory option for Metro 3 / 23's and some still have them. (E.g. Airwork NZ's 3's).
I am not aware of any country that requires an A/P for any 19 seater flown 2 pilot.
Cargo single pilot Metros have A/P's - no choice. Weight is about 70-80kgs I was once told by a gingerbeer - ie 1 pax! Have flown a Metro 3 with A/P, F/D etc - was very nice I must say.
A few Metro 3's I knew did have A/P's but usually were removed when the servo's need replacing due weight and F/A vs pax rule requiring a co-pilot. Bugger!
I am not aware of any country that requires an A/P for any 19 seater flown 2 pilot.
Cargo single pilot Metros have A/P's - no choice. Weight is about 70-80kgs I was once told by a gingerbeer - ie 1 pax! Have flown a Metro 3 with A/P, F/D etc - was very nice I must say.
A few Metro 3's I knew did have A/P's but usually were removed when the servo's need replacing due weight and F/A vs pax rule requiring a co-pilot. Bugger!
