ATSB Report: QF B737 838 VH VXF
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experience is really just making lots of little mistakes that don't kill you or end in tears. There is a saying that goes like 100 hours but ten times the experience of 1000, or something like that.
Everybody makes them, its just those that learn are the ones who benefit and your Character is measured by how you face up to them, either privately or in public.
Rare enough these days in corporate land, and airlines are no different from any other business in this respect
No comment on the Specific Incident, I was not there, and I'm not privy to the cockpit events. - But I'll bet none of that crew will ever be involved in a CFIT ever.
Everybody makes them, its just those that learn are the ones who benefit and your Character is measured by how you face up to them, either privately or in public.
Rare enough these days in corporate land, and airlines are no different from any other business in this respect
No comment on the Specific Incident, I was not there, and I'm not privy to the cockpit events. - But I'll bet none of that crew will ever be involved in a CFIT ever.
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But I'll bet none of that crew will ever be involved in a CFIT ever.
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7gbc
Your last sentevce is so important. There is no point in crucifying the pilots. They have had a very powerful and valuable lesson , which is far more effective than any training anyone is prepared to give them.
They are now much wiser and better pilots because of it.
Your last sentevce is so important. There is no point in crucifying the pilots. They have had a very powerful and valuable lesson , which is far more effective than any training anyone is prepared to give them.
They are now much wiser and better pilots because of it.
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Mr Approach,
It's not my logic it's the bean counters logic, out of interest have you ever known app/dep positions to be cut and numbers reduced in a TCU? I haven't seen it since I've been here.
Why consolidate? These were promises made to industry in an effort to sell them TAAATS and eventual cost savings. There will be serious loss of face from those who promised it if they don't. Safety is no bearing on these decisions.
Yes, back to the thread, the tower controllers if they were in attendance before the approach dood, would have been in most cases able and willing to fill in. Why not? Who knows? Don't ask the manager responsible, it's not their decision, it's the bean counters.
I sat in on a presentation from the sky-guide fellow (urberlingen) who stated that it's not just controllers at the workface that face charges when something un-fortunate happens, it goes right back up to the top. The top brass were solemny nodding their heads in agreement convinced only as the brainwashed and performance bonus paid are, that we are totally safety focussed and it couldn't happen to us.
Me thinks that it will only be when some of the decision makers are doing time in the big house that this current philosophy will change.
o = before prison.
o = after prison.
Sorry for hi-jacking the thread fellas
It's not my logic it's the bean counters logic, out of interest have you ever known app/dep positions to be cut and numbers reduced in a TCU? I haven't seen it since I've been here.
Why consolidate? These were promises made to industry in an effort to sell them TAAATS and eventual cost savings. There will be serious loss of face from those who promised it if they don't. Safety is no bearing on these decisions.
Yes, back to the thread, the tower controllers if they were in attendance before the approach dood, would have been in most cases able and willing to fill in. Why not? Who knows? Don't ask the manager responsible, it's not their decision, it's the bean counters.
I sat in on a presentation from the sky-guide fellow (urberlingen) who stated that it's not just controllers at the workface that face charges when something un-fortunate happens, it goes right back up to the top. The top brass were solemny nodding their heads in agreement convinced only as the brainwashed and performance bonus paid are, that we are totally safety focussed and it couldn't happen to us.
Me thinks that it will only be when some of the decision makers are doing time in the big house that this current philosophy will change.
o = before prison.
o = after prison.
Sorry for hi-jacking the thread fellas
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Nothing against cadets... good on 'um...
But what I still don't get (and what I was alluding to before, sorry Borg) is that I was under the assumption that QF cadets did their ATPL theory (lets hope
) and then entered the industry... (either QF or now a regional/3K). Then when one has amassed the hours required, one would recieve a 'full' or 'un-frozen' ATPL. What's the go?
ForSure
But what I still don't get (and what I was alluding to before, sorry Borg) is that I was under the assumption that QF cadets did their ATPL theory (lets hope
) and then entered the industry... (either QF or now a regional/3K). Then when one has amassed the hours required, one would recieve a 'full' or 'un-frozen' ATPL. What's the go?ForSure
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GT-R,
I'm not sure about your comment, however I'm sure you will agree that we all make mistakes, and we hopefully learn from them.
My point was succinctly articulated by Bushy, that is what I was getting at.
such is life, we all can't be perfect all the time, but trying to get there distinguishes us from the mediocre.
reasonably important in aviation you would think?
g'luck to the crew, I wish them the best.
7g
I'm not sure about your comment, however I'm sure you will agree that we all make mistakes, and we hopefully learn from them.
My point was succinctly articulated by Bushy, that is what I was getting at.
such is life, we all can't be perfect all the time, but trying to get there distinguishes us from the mediocre.
reasonably important in aviation you would think?
g'luck to the crew, I wish them the best.
7g
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Can someone explain why Lufthansa and BA have used cadets for the past 5 decades and managed to have a safety record a damn sight better than that which is floating round GA?
The arguments against cadets in the real world (with hard facts based on the last 50 years of flying) outside smallminded Aust or NZ doesn't really stack up I'm afraid.
Some people on this forum need to get out a bit more. The anti-cadet thingy that only occurs down-under has to be a product of inbreeding and isolation.
The arguments against cadets in the real world (with hard facts based on the last 50 years of flying) outside smallminded Aust or NZ doesn't really stack up I'm afraid.
Some people on this forum need to get out a bit more. The anti-cadet thingy that only occurs down-under has to be a product of inbreeding and isolation.
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Can someone explain why Lufthansa and BA have used cadets for the past 5 decades and managed to have a safety record a damn sight better than that which is floating round GA?
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To be labeled a dud for a 1 off mistake be they cadet, GA or military is somewhat harsh. Everyone makes mistakes - its only human to.
Lets just hope they learn, and indeed, we all learn/benefit from something (a tragic outcome) which luckily didnt happen .
Lets just hope they learn, and indeed, we all learn/benefit from something (a tragic outcome) which luckily didnt happen .
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Regardless of the Cadet issue which seems to be causing some people problems. I question the validity of an FO not holding an ATPL in an aircraft of 5700KG or greater.
The_Cutest_of_Borg says that:
This is a very interesting statement because just three years ago or thereabouts the Adelaide Advertiser reported that a Captain in a Qantas B737 became incapacitated on an approach into Adelaide (chest pain?) and the approach and landing was executed entirely by the FO while the Captain was attended to. I would say that in this case, the FO suddenly was “in Command” of the aircraft!
So, does that mean that if an FO has only a CPL, the CASA God’s would say “Bless you my son (or daughter) you now have a temporary ATPL to operate this aircraft above 5700KG until you land it”!
No doubt, the Insurance companies and lawyers for the SLF would think differently, if an accident occurred. As it is, Insurance companies now dictate qualifications and experience required to many operators. I bet they don’t know about Qantas using non-ATPL pilots as FO's in their aircraft?
The_Cutest_of_Borg says that:
ATPL is not required for short haul FO's in QF because they, unlike their LH counterparts, are never required to act in command of the aircraft i.e. when the captain is on a break
So, does that mean that if an FO has only a CPL, the CASA God’s would say “Bless you my son (or daughter) you now have a temporary ATPL to operate this aircraft above 5700KG until you land it”!
No doubt, the Insurance companies and lawyers for the SLF would think differently, if an accident occurred. As it is, Insurance companies now dictate qualifications and experience required to many operators. I bet they don’t know about Qantas using non-ATPL pilots as FO's in their aircraft?
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I believe that Qantas is self insured. Is this correct?
Flight time does not equal experience and experience does not equal safe. But in the end, give me up front, two experienced pilots following their S.O.P.'s, and giving their full attention to what they are doing over two 4+ cadets following their S.O.P.'s and giving their full attention to what they are doing.
Flight time does not equal experience and experience does not equal safe. But in the end, give me up front, two experienced pilots following their S.O.P.'s, and giving their full attention to what they are doing over two 4+ cadets following their S.O.P.'s and giving their full attention to what they are doing.
Nunc est bibendum
I had the requirements for my ATPL for two or three years before I actually got around to getting the magic letters put onto my license! I mean seriously, it's not like you do a seperate test or anything. It's not like you're assessed differently whether you have a CPL or ATPL. The expectations of performance are the same, the checks are the same, the sack if you don't perform is the same. Lots of ATPL holders haven't got through the checks whilst cadets have and viccy verka.
What I find funny about b55's comments is that 'experience' and 'cadet' is obviously mutually exclusive. At what stage does a pilot 'cease' to be a cadet and then become 'experienced'. Never?
All i want is well trained and appropriately experienced pilots. I couldn't give a stuff where they learnt there trade 5-10 years ago! All I care about is how they perform NOW!
What I find funny about b55's comments is that 'experience' and 'cadet' is obviously mutually exclusive. At what stage does a pilot 'cease' to be a cadet and then become 'experienced'. Never?
All i want is well trained and appropriately experienced pilots. I couldn't give a stuff where they learnt there trade 5-10 years ago! All I care about is how they perform NOW!
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wing-nut
read your CAOs... you need an ATPL to be in command of RPT... etc... etc... not to be a F/O in the outside case that the skipper is going to keel over. If there were liability issues following an incident, they would rest on the CAOs, not QF. All it means i guess is, that if the skipper does cark it, if you don't have an ATPL you can't log the CMD time!
read your CAOs... you need an ATPL to be in command of RPT... etc... etc... not to be a F/O in the outside case that the skipper is going to keel over. If there were liability issues following an incident, they would rest on the CAOs, not QF. All it means i guess is, that if the skipper does cark it, if you don't have an ATPL you can't log the CMD time!
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Capt. Can't
You've mis-read my submission completely. I'm quite aware of what the CAO's state and fully aware that you don't need an ATPL to act as an FO.
However, I am suggesting that problems could arise where an FO does not have an ATPL and is required to assume command for whatever reason leaving the door open for possible legal action in the event of an accident.
You've mis-read my submission completely. I'm quite aware of what the CAO's state and fully aware that you don't need an ATPL to act as an FO.
However, I am suggesting that problems could arise where an FO does not have an ATPL and is required to assume command for whatever reason leaving the door open for possible legal action in the event of an accident.
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and wingnut,
you've missed mine.... how could a carrier be liable if they are covered (completely) by the regs/CAOs??
they'd be up against the government... good luck with that!
you've missed mine.... how could a carrier be liable if they are covered (completely) by the regs/CAOs??
they'd be up against the government... good luck with that!
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Captain Cant....
I have to disagree with your comments re: Equipment, maintenance..operating conditions...
Are you seriously suggesting Oz is a more difficult environment to operate in than Europe? (IMHO thats rubbish...Ive operated in both)
As far as equipment is concerned OF..VB..and the rest operate A/C that are every bit as capable as their BA..and Luftwaffe equilvalents. In terms of maintenance..well it depends who you talk to...so I dont know about that!
Perhaps your comments were tounge in cheek, it is my experience however that your first two points are inaccurate.
The big thing that came out of this report for me seems to be the lack of CRM..just at the time when the crew should have been extra vigilant..given the time of day (we are all taught about times of peek arousal...and the times to be aware of our frailties) sadly in this case it was not evident...and they were VERY lucky to get away with it.
We all make mistakes........thats why the Guy/Gal next to you crosschecks during critical phases of flight.
Just my thoughts.
H
I have to disagree with your comments re: Equipment, maintenance..operating conditions...
Are you seriously suggesting Oz is a more difficult environment to operate in than Europe? (IMHO thats rubbish...Ive operated in both)
As far as equipment is concerned OF..VB..and the rest operate A/C that are every bit as capable as their BA..and Luftwaffe equilvalents. In terms of maintenance..well it depends who you talk to...so I dont know about that!
Perhaps your comments were tounge in cheek, it is my experience however that your first two points are inaccurate.
The big thing that came out of this report for me seems to be the lack of CRM..just at the time when the crew should have been extra vigilant..given the time of day (we are all taught about times of peek arousal...and the times to be aware of our frailties) sadly in this case it was not evident...and they were VERY lucky to get away with it.
We all make mistakes........thats why the Guy/Gal next to you crosschecks during critical phases of flight.
Just my thoughts.
H