Qantas A330 crewing decision
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I think part of the trouble is that on the SH award, living hand-to-mouth as they sometimes do, they got used to finishing a trip they may have picked up and said.. "well.. I earned X dollars from that trip."
However, others would have a trip taken off them and have the reverse sentiments.
Perhaps under the LH award they should look at the line itself and think, "Well no matter what happens, I'll be paid at least X dollars for that line plus whatever training, open time etc I can pick up."
It's all in the way you look at it.
For the line drivers, the pay is very similiar. In fact one reknown A list hour hog was heard in a bar recently comparing what he earned between the two systems, then comparing his work rate under the two, and stating he was more than happy to get his life back under the LH award.
However, others would have a trip taken off them and have the reverse sentiments.
Perhaps under the LH award they should look at the line itself and think, "Well no matter what happens, I'll be paid at least X dollars for that line plus whatever training, open time etc I can pick up."
It's all in the way you look at it.
For the line drivers, the pay is very similiar. In fact one reknown A list hour hog was heard in a bar recently comparing what he earned between the two systems, then comparing his work rate under the two, and stating he was more than happy to get his life back under the LH award.
Join Date: Sep 2004
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“This is at the expense of their peers gaining promotion to First Officer or Captain”
Isn’t every crewing structure to the detriment of staffing numbers? Imagine how many brothers would be employed if flying hours were capped at 20 per month.
“The Long Haul award has financial penalties in place that forces the company to man the aircraft correctly and won't give pilots excessive additional hours (unless absolutely necessary) because of those penalties”
So inefficiency is built into the system as a result of decades of industrial disconnect.
“This is a much farer system as it takes away the greed factor”’
So longhaul pilots are not greedy huh. Are you saying this with a straight face?
GB,
Take a look at crew numbers in QF longhaul compared to carriers such as CX and SQ. No carrier still supporting the blank line system of yesteryear can claim the efficiency high ground.
Isn’t every crewing structure to the detriment of staffing numbers? Imagine how many brothers would be employed if flying hours were capped at 20 per month.
“The Long Haul award has financial penalties in place that forces the company to man the aircraft correctly and won't give pilots excessive additional hours (unless absolutely necessary) because of those penalties”
So inefficiency is built into the system as a result of decades of industrial disconnect.
“This is a much farer system as it takes away the greed factor”’
So longhaul pilots are not greedy huh. Are you saying this with a straight face?
GB,
Take a look at crew numbers in QF longhaul compared to carriers such as CX and SQ. No carrier still supporting the blank line system of yesteryear can claim the efficiency high ground.
Join Date: Feb 2004
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Fact…. 75 Hours each month at the old rate is a heap more than 175 each 56 days at the new rate over a year. Simple as that.
I believe that 66 hours is the figure that equals LH in terms of pay, therefore the extra 9 hours at the much higher rate is the pay difference, 9 extra hours on 66 is over 13%, try to get that in the EBA.
I understand the embarrassment at asking (no…..Begging) for a system that ultimately gave yourself a pay cut. But at least face up to reality. I have never before seen so many people deluding themselves each and every day.
Also, stop calling me greedy, I just want the pay that I had only a short time ago, nothing greedy about that….OK!
You can tell me a million times all the reasons for the switch, but they are all BS.
“We didn’t ever do 75 hours” Its not even true, only the late blow ins were grossly affected, but that was mainly because of the nature of the crewing numbers being built up for each new aircraft arriving and then towards the end from the impending switch to LH. The CP even said publicly that any of the late arrivals from LH who reckons they have an understanding of the true nature of the SH award on the Airbus is kidding themselves because of the introductory nature during that time.
“Pattern Protection” This thing is garbage, you know for certain at the beginning of the bid period that you will definitely get paid less. Meanwhile your life is stolen from you….so much for lifestyle. And if someone says “but you can drop it” one more time I’m going to implode… you really can’t drop it because you would just lose even MORE money.
“Daily Credit” There was a daily credit of exactly the same $ amount which nobody seems to remember, it was over the month, but there were suggestions to change this to each trip, but I guess we’ll never know.
“Losing Long Trips” Get over yourselves. If you dropped a long trip you would have got 3 hours a day, and presumably you would only be sick for a few days so plenty left to pick up at least something. The big issue you people can’t understand is, swings and roundabouts. You would rather have a set-in-stone (per BP) lower wage rather than have a somewhat flexible (per month) but much higher wage. That’s just crazy.
“Fairness” What is so unfair about giving open time to those who chase it? Before you jump down my throat, I wasn’t an hour chaser, but I didn’t hold some stupid jealousy toward them either. What is unfair is having a designated sub-group (Blank Liners) who have their lives constantly on hold at the mercy of the company and in most cases getting a lot less $$$ than others (and a lot, lot, lot less than SH).
BTW Jetsbest, Sorry you took offence, I admit I might be a little tense, but I have taken a big cut, and it is hurting. Unions go on strike for less of a pay rise than I have just lost!
Anyway, I’ve seen both of the guys you refer to over the last few days, and neither recall having suggested that LH is often better. They both stated that there is no possible way for LH to be better on any given trip. Really inefficient stuff is identical (because the Daily credit is the same) and efficient stuff is heaps more. (I think they were referring to their model not the old one, but there was a minimum credit in that as well.)
The 73 bloke was for a month of about 76 hours (I think) and the LH was a Blank Line pay, scary stuff to be on a considerably bigger aircraft 8 years hence and take home less…don’t you think?
I believe that 66 hours is the figure that equals LH in terms of pay, therefore the extra 9 hours at the much higher rate is the pay difference, 9 extra hours on 66 is over 13%, try to get that in the EBA.
I understand the embarrassment at asking (no…..Begging) for a system that ultimately gave yourself a pay cut. But at least face up to reality. I have never before seen so many people deluding themselves each and every day.
Also, stop calling me greedy, I just want the pay that I had only a short time ago, nothing greedy about that….OK!
You can tell me a million times all the reasons for the switch, but they are all BS.
“We didn’t ever do 75 hours” Its not even true, only the late blow ins were grossly affected, but that was mainly because of the nature of the crewing numbers being built up for each new aircraft arriving and then towards the end from the impending switch to LH. The CP even said publicly that any of the late arrivals from LH who reckons they have an understanding of the true nature of the SH award on the Airbus is kidding themselves because of the introductory nature during that time.
“Pattern Protection” This thing is garbage, you know for certain at the beginning of the bid period that you will definitely get paid less. Meanwhile your life is stolen from you….so much for lifestyle. And if someone says “but you can drop it” one more time I’m going to implode… you really can’t drop it because you would just lose even MORE money.
“Daily Credit” There was a daily credit of exactly the same $ amount which nobody seems to remember, it was over the month, but there were suggestions to change this to each trip, but I guess we’ll never know.
“Losing Long Trips” Get over yourselves. If you dropped a long trip you would have got 3 hours a day, and presumably you would only be sick for a few days so plenty left to pick up at least something. The big issue you people can’t understand is, swings and roundabouts. You would rather have a set-in-stone (per BP) lower wage rather than have a somewhat flexible (per month) but much higher wage. That’s just crazy.
“Fairness” What is so unfair about giving open time to those who chase it? Before you jump down my throat, I wasn’t an hour chaser, but I didn’t hold some stupid jealousy toward them either. What is unfair is having a designated sub-group (Blank Liners) who have their lives constantly on hold at the mercy of the company and in most cases getting a lot less $$$ than others (and a lot, lot, lot less than SH).
BTW Jetsbest, Sorry you took offence, I admit I might be a little tense, but I have taken a big cut, and it is hurting. Unions go on strike for less of a pay rise than I have just lost!
Anyway, I’ve seen both of the guys you refer to over the last few days, and neither recall having suggested that LH is often better. They both stated that there is no possible way for LH to be better on any given trip. Really inefficient stuff is identical (because the Daily credit is the same) and efficient stuff is heaps more. (I think they were referring to their model not the old one, but there was a minimum credit in that as well.)
The 73 bloke was for a month of about 76 hours (I think) and the LH was a Blank Line pay, scary stuff to be on a considerably bigger aircraft 8 years hence and take home less…don’t you think?
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This has been well and truly thrashed out in Qrewroom.. I fail to see any point to continuing this argument on this forum.
(Unless certain people are frightened to have their opinions known publicly of course)
(Unless certain people are frightened to have their opinions known publicly of course)
Speedy,
The BW Proposal is never less: agreed.
The comparisons I discussed were with the S/H system as it then applied to the A330; hence the fact that the current flying I do usually gets me higher pay under L/H conditions. The modified (ie just for A330) minimum guarantee under S/H was 59hrs/mth vice 55hrs correct? I believe (and stand to be corrected) that the 59hrs came about to ensure that A330 S/H minimum pay matched the L/H minimum pay in real dollar terms. Some also appear to overlook the fact that the initial A330 LOA, some credit for which was claimed by the current chief pilot when he was AIPA president, set pay rates based on L/H 747+3%, and then 'S/H-ised' the figures into the stick-hour rate of pay the A330 pilots enjoyed before the switch was made. Seemed fair, until it changed to L/H under the trigger clause and some took a pay cut. But some, and dare I say most who are now coming to A330 off other L/H types, have taken a substantial pay rise too. I know that won't make the 'cut-ees' feel better...
My L/H flying to date has averaged an equivalent of roughly 62 stick hrs/mth for more than 175hrs L/H credit/8wk period. That's a LOT less than 75hrs; and I can't easily fly more days either! Simply, L/H pays better for time-away-from-home as opposed to stick time; I didn't invent (or ask for) such inefficient flying patterns. But, unfortunately it seems, the BW proposal and its 66hr/mth minimum guarantee equivalent to 175hrs L/H is not yet a reality.
Two 'stake-holders' have yet to be convinced of the merits of the BW idea; AIPA & QF. Good luck to the two guys in their discussions. I'd be happy to spread my 'seniority' over the rest of my career by sharing the standbys. It would be great to take the first available promotion without the discouraging issue which plagues you; blank lines. I'd love to get the S/H hourly rate for efficient L/H flying...
But for now I'll plod on... and try to keep emotion out of any rational case I might have to make. All I can suggest to you is to 'hang in there' or 'move on' , because I feel that your version of the perfect solution is a long way off.
The BW Proposal is never less: agreed.
The comparisons I discussed were with the S/H system as it then applied to the A330; hence the fact that the current flying I do usually gets me higher pay under L/H conditions. The modified (ie just for A330) minimum guarantee under S/H was 59hrs/mth vice 55hrs correct? I believe (and stand to be corrected) that the 59hrs came about to ensure that A330 S/H minimum pay matched the L/H minimum pay in real dollar terms. Some also appear to overlook the fact that the initial A330 LOA, some credit for which was claimed by the current chief pilot when he was AIPA president, set pay rates based on L/H 747+3%, and then 'S/H-ised' the figures into the stick-hour rate of pay the A330 pilots enjoyed before the switch was made. Seemed fair, until it changed to L/H under the trigger clause and some took a pay cut. But some, and dare I say most who are now coming to A330 off other L/H types, have taken a substantial pay rise too. I know that won't make the 'cut-ees' feel better...
My L/H flying to date has averaged an equivalent of roughly 62 stick hrs/mth for more than 175hrs L/H credit/8wk period. That's a LOT less than 75hrs; and I can't easily fly more days either! Simply, L/H pays better for time-away-from-home as opposed to stick time; I didn't invent (or ask for) such inefficient flying patterns. But, unfortunately it seems, the BW proposal and its 66hr/mth minimum guarantee equivalent to 175hrs L/H is not yet a reality.
Two 'stake-holders' have yet to be convinced of the merits of the BW idea; AIPA & QF. Good luck to the two guys in their discussions. I'd be happy to spread my 'seniority' over the rest of my career by sharing the standbys. It would be great to take the first available promotion without the discouraging issue which plagues you; blank lines. I'd love to get the S/H hourly rate for efficient L/H flying...
But for now I'll plod on... and try to keep emotion out of any rational case I might have to make. All I can suggest to you is to 'hang in there' or 'move on' , because I feel that your version of the perfect solution is a long way off.
Nunc est bibendum
Well, I'll be!
I think I'm going to cut and save that post jets. A reasoned, thought out, rational post on PPRUNE that didn't denigrate or otherwise hook into anyone.
Congratulations!
Congratulations!
