ALAEA EBA VII agreement
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The goat rooter can never be pleased but I thought youse on our side CM. The offer is a good one when you consider all the turmoil in the industry right now. I has spoken to many many members and were all pleased to see the end of this thing. Most of us dont even work in hm so who cares what hapens there the work will go overseas if they dont like it. As for 3% I think is fair and all this crap about inflation being higher well its not. They reckon its 2.8% so 3% is a genorous offer and must be accepted. If you fools dont the backpay will disapear and so will the grade adjustments so just get over yourselves and think about the future. Send all your posotive feedback to trustee1 at the ALAEA and it will get looked after.
Yeah mate, send your emails and criticism to the executive so that they can tell Qantas Management.
There is zero trust of the Executive.
Furthermore Mr. Qantas, the net take home pay after adjustment for taxation is less than three percent because of the effect of taxation.
There is zero trust of the Executive.
Furthermore Mr. Qantas, the net take home pay after adjustment for taxation is less than three percent because of the effect of taxation.
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How dare you cast these slandorous disperions on our executive. They dont give them an inch when they negotiate and the last thing theyed do is give them names so retract that garbage or ill report you to the moderater. As for take home pay and tax you just got a nice big tax cut add on top 3% and most lames will be over $100 bucks a week better in the sky rocket so stop the whinging.
Last edited by Woomera; 17th May 2005 at 01:59.
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Mr Qantas, what do you think will come your way under K Clark when he has heavy and base maint under his control.
Why are you in a union when you only care about yourself, go and sign an AWA.
I should think that steam clean should be out sourced soon anyway.
Why are you in a union when you only care about yourself, go and sign an AWA.
I should think that steam clean should be out sourced soon anyway.
Last edited by Woomera; 17th May 2005 at 02:01.
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It's back with some editing of unecessary though maybe heartfelt observations.
We have no position on the matter under discussion that is for you, our experience here tells us that a cause is not advanced by intemperant language. It simply gives the other side the opportunity to diminish you in the eyes of others.
We have no position on the matter under discussion that is for you, our experience here tells us that a cause is not advanced by intemperant language. It simply gives the other side the opportunity to diminish you in the eyes of others.
Join Date: Feb 2004
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Woomera, I marvel at your patience, wisdom and understanding. You are a leading light to all other Moderators and I acknowledge your sensitivity in allowing this thread to continue.
What has been expressed here and in other recent threads is not merely a case for greater wages but a call to arms to slow the degredation of airline safety. I think you understand this and have allowed the debate to continue but have endevoured to tone down the emotion.
There is real concern among engineers and airline staff, that the direction that the market is pushing airlines to take to earn greater profits is a scary one. It will ultimately lead to sad times for families across the globe in years to come.
There is a good reason here for airlines to stay under Government control. It is now a service industry, a means of transporting large volumes of people that modern society has a need to commute. No longer a fat cow for entrepeneurs to play with, railways were run by Governments for many years to deliver just such a service. Aircraft are the new generation of trains in the sky and the public need a reliable safe mode of transport without the burden of cost whittling away at its infrastructure.
Some of the most successful Airlines are still managed by Governments and make profits. I say take back the airlines from the rich and give it into the hands of Governments so that we all can be share holders in our future and safety.
What has been expressed here and in other recent threads is not merely a case for greater wages but a call to arms to slow the degredation of airline safety. I think you understand this and have allowed the debate to continue but have endevoured to tone down the emotion.
There is real concern among engineers and airline staff, that the direction that the market is pushing airlines to take to earn greater profits is a scary one. It will ultimately lead to sad times for families across the globe in years to come.
There is a good reason here for airlines to stay under Government control. It is now a service industry, a means of transporting large volumes of people that modern society has a need to commute. No longer a fat cow for entrepeneurs to play with, railways were run by Governments for many years to deliver just such a service. Aircraft are the new generation of trains in the sky and the public need a reliable safe mode of transport without the burden of cost whittling away at its infrastructure.
Some of the most successful Airlines are still managed by Governments and make profits. I say take back the airlines from the rich and give it into the hands of Governments so that we all can be share holders in our future and safety.
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Sunfish wrote:
I think what Socks is saying is that we must be vigilant, and when decisions are made by some to have a greater influence on many it may only profit a few.
Government decisions are made to profit many, and not always with the view to making money. Many Government railways run at a loss but continue to service the public, for the greater good.
I think the Engineers would probably forego a lousy 3% pay increase if they could see a change in philosophy by management to keep the status quo.
You guys will be shuffled off and sold to the highest bidder, however your little mates in the executive will stay behind at QF as contract administrators of the maintenance contract.
Government decisions are made to profit many, and not always with the view to making money. Many Government railways run at a loss but continue to service the public, for the greater good.
I think the Engineers would probably forego a lousy 3% pay increase if they could see a change in philosophy by management to keep the status quo.
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As I have seen the over the years Q is using our geographical location to it's advantage in it's demeaning propaganda campaign by distorting reality,mislaying the facts and promoting the easily manipulated 'YES' men as their perversive arms of power who perform this perversion and subvertion through misinformation and intimidation.The aviation world isn't in turmoil,it isn't losing enormous amounts of money,quite the contrary,profits are up across the board and airlines with a management with any nous and ability are embracing it by trimming areas that have grown gluttenous,like middle management and over pampered flight attendants to name a few, and now looking upon maintenance as a potential major earner for an established airline with the technical expertise,infrastructure and manufacturer's support to offer a very viable and profitable third party aircraft MRO.Overseas freighter airlines are sprouting everywhere with a huge demand for 747's due to their reliability cost and load carrying ability .They are being dragged out of the desert and these fledgling airlines are looking for MRO's with 74 experience to do the return to service checks.This is where Q just can't cut it,it tried to jump on the train with the opening of AVV but has inevitably failed through lack of proper management and foresight,you can't employ sh!t do do quality just as you can't employ quality to do sh!t.Until Q recognises it's failings and embraces the future,acts like private company not a public service and starts to repect the Australian LAME/AME for the quality we deserve and pay to hold onto this expertise then the morale will continue to drop (if it can drop any lower) and quality LAME's and AME's will continually walk out the door and into jobs outside and OS with higher remuneration and respect, and once recognised by these outside organisations as talented, well trained technical expertise they will not be let go which will eventually leave Q on the verge of the very serious collapse in experience and quality.Quick fixes don't work as AVV is a prime example of and surely Q have to realise this as it watches their investments walk out the door,are they that short sighted that they can't remember back to the early millennium pre AN collapse when they were in crisis through lack of manpower,it will happen again and thinking Asia's MRO's will make all their problems go away is farcical.People only fly Q for their perceived safety not service so let's hope Q's management realise this before it's too late,Q should be appeasing the customers through service and quality not the shareholders through theatrically presented ambiguity
Last edited by INCOGNIT0; 18th May 2005 at 04:33.
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Why are the company and/or the executive trying to divide us between Heavy & Line? Just remember if this EBA gets pasted and screws H/M, Line will be next and there WILL be NO support from H/m for any issues effecting Line in the future.
Stand united and we can win over these self centred drop kicks.
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Talking to a guy from SIT the other night and he was worried about the wording of the approval clause. Said if his susspisions were correct he stood to loose a fair bit........... This EBA effects all of us, if we let the company drive wedges in then they have won not only the battle but the war also.
SOLIDARITY
SOLIDARITY
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"We're all in the one boat so we better start rowing"
You Guys hit the mark we gotta stick together keep each other informed of our concerns Communication is the key.
That is why the company let's the exec do it's bidding and deliver the document to the members in person
IT'S THE ONLY TIME THEY LEAVE THE OFFICE
then sad sack can preach his sad tale of woe and troubled times.
Sold down the river again.........
I'm drowning.............
I'm drowning...........
Hey ! there's someone pushing me under ?
You Guys hit the mark we gotta stick together keep each other informed of our concerns Communication is the key.
That is why the company let's the exec do it's bidding and deliver the document to the members in person
IT'S THE ONLY TIME THEY LEAVE THE OFFICE
then sad sack can preach his sad tale of woe and troubled times.
Sold down the river again.........
I'm drowning.............
I'm drowning...........
Hey ! there's someone pushing me under ?
Join Date: May 2005
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CASEY JONES
Instead of being 'just another number' I could order a Personal Title and help support PPRuNe
posted 20th May 2005 04:29
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O/T banking is not a big issue for most but it is a great win for QF - after all no other unions have weakened to this demand at either H/M Melb or Syd, 3% gives QF the right to demand nothing.
I think QF management would be wrapped though to see how willing ALAEA exec are to participate once again in their favorite ploy of sacrificing the minority while encouraging I'm right jack attitude in the majority.
Another reason I'd be happy if I was Cox Vincent or Clark is that if I was setting up to outsource heavy & line maint to a third party labour hire company( very doable ) then I couldn’t ask for a better bunch of blokes to thrash out the issues with than the ALAEA EBA neg committee
I'm sure they hope that this EBA is finished quickly so these issues along with LAME-less tarmac can be sorted before the ALAEA boys get the boot. How well will the QF look after them when they have no one to sell out ?
There are long term ramifications for all LAMEs in this EBA ie some line guys forced to the hangers with the heavy guys & only o/t bankers offered the extra hours / don't worry though this won't happen to our current EBA neg group.
We might not end up with much of a pay deal but we must stand together & earn some respect as a group regardless of how keen our office bearers are to ingratiate themselves to management.
We should all remember the one golden QF rule no matter what your grade level or dept a good employee /LAME is a cheap one.
Instead of being 'just another number' I could order a Personal Title and help support PPRuNe
posted 20th May 2005 04:29
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O/T banking is not a big issue for most but it is a great win for QF - after all no other unions have weakened to this demand at either H/M Melb or Syd, 3% gives QF the right to demand nothing.
I think QF management would be wrapped though to see how willing ALAEA exec are to participate once again in their favorite ploy of sacrificing the minority while encouraging I'm right jack attitude in the majority.
Another reason I'd be happy if I was Cox Vincent or Clark is that if I was setting up to outsource heavy & line maint to a third party labour hire company( very doable ) then I couldn’t ask for a better bunch of blokes to thrash out the issues with than the ALAEA EBA neg committee
I'm sure they hope that this EBA is finished quickly so these issues along with LAME-less tarmac can be sorted before the ALAEA boys get the boot. How well will the QF look after them when they have no one to sell out ?
There are long term ramifications for all LAMEs in this EBA ie some line guys forced to the hangers with the heavy guys & only o/t bankers offered the extra hours / don't worry though this won't happen to our current EBA neg group.
We might not end up with much of a pay deal but we must stand together & earn some respect as a group regardless of how keen our office bearers are to ingratiate themselves to management.
We should all remember the one golden QF rule no matter what your grade level or dept a good employee /LAME is a cheap one.
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The agreement is basically giving you a CPI increase for no trade offs. Not a fantastic win but the minimum acceptable outcome in my view. It keeps our wage in line with inflation and thats all.
I know people who have worked with OT banking in Avalon and they say it is good. It gives people the opportunity to get extra money as well as extra time off from their horrible roster. The company has to give 48 hrs notice so they can't just spring it on you. That said, the whole thing is voluntary anway so no one can be "shafted".
For all those who are unhappy with agreement- what is it you want?
4,5,6,7% ??? Extra conditions???
Even if we were to reject this package and were succesful in getting a better deal (which is highly debatable- last time we rejected an EBA we ended up accepting a lesser deal) It is going to cost dearly in the short term.
I can't be bothered going through 3 months of ot bans,higher duties bans, stop work meetings and possibly strikes for at best a marginally better deal and at worst, a lesser deal.
I know people who have worked with OT banking in Avalon and they say it is good. It gives people the opportunity to get extra money as well as extra time off from their horrible roster. The company has to give 48 hrs notice so they can't just spring it on you. That said, the whole thing is voluntary anway so no one can be "shafted".
For all those who are unhappy with agreement- what is it you want?
4,5,6,7% ??? Extra conditions???
Even if we were to reject this package and were succesful in getting a better deal (which is highly debatable- last time we rejected an EBA we ended up accepting a lesser deal) It is going to cost dearly in the short term.
I can't be bothered going through 3 months of ot bans,higher duties bans, stop work meetings and possibly strikes for at best a marginally better deal and at worst, a lesser deal.
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So why have an EBA, if we never get anything for trading off efficiencies, and when there is nothing left to trade????
We give them money back to keep our jobs?????
Is our commitee going to say again that this is the best we could get BUT we will have a better chance next time, the timing was wrong this time, the company is going through a difficult time and can't afford anything better,hang in there guys there is light at the end of the tunnel, we have your best interest at heart????
I have heard it all before.......it won't work this time ! ! !
We give them money back to keep our jobs?????
Is our commitee going to say again that this is the best we could get BUT we will have a better chance next time, the timing was wrong this time, the company is going through a difficult time and can't afford anything better,hang in there guys there is light at the end of the tunnel, we have your best interest at heart????
I have heard it all before.......it won't work this time ! ! !
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numbskull
Have you actually read the offer? No trade offs my *&$@!!
What about the licence payments for aircraft that will soon not be QF tpyes ie Jet Connect 737-3/400's.Have a good read and think about how long before company/exec attack current tpyes.
If YOU want o/t banking then it should apply to ALL LAME's not just H/M and should not be so subject to QF control.
What about all the extras QF have thrown at us? Jetsmart, Lean Stimga, Safty observation's etc, Project 221 in Melb is supposed to deliver $15 Million in savings. We put the hard yards in and should be renumerated accordingly. I'm sick of funding large bouns's for managerment.
Remember our wage freeze. I,d be happy for a 4.5%p.a. increase and NO changes to current conditions as the bere minimum acceptable outcome.
What,s going to happen when times do get tough? What are YOU willing to give up for the next EBA ?
Heavy Maint is targeted this time and it dosen't take a rocket scientist to work out that Line is next in the sights!!
Don't be so short sighted! Think about not only your hip pocket but future LAME's.Remeber eventually the numbers of LAME's not covered by these Grandfather clause's will out number those who are and their not going to give a tinkers toss about YOUR conditions if it dosen't apply to them.
Have you actually read the offer? No trade offs my *&$@!!
What about the licence payments for aircraft that will soon not be QF tpyes ie Jet Connect 737-3/400's.Have a good read and think about how long before company/exec attack current tpyes.
If YOU want o/t banking then it should apply to ALL LAME's not just H/M and should not be so subject to QF control.
What about all the extras QF have thrown at us? Jetsmart, Lean Stimga, Safty observation's etc, Project 221 in Melb is supposed to deliver $15 Million in savings. We put the hard yards in and should be renumerated accordingly. I'm sick of funding large bouns's for managerment.
Remember our wage freeze. I,d be happy for a 4.5%p.a. increase and NO changes to current conditions as the bere minimum acceptable outcome.
What,s going to happen when times do get tough? What are YOU willing to give up for the next EBA ?
Heavy Maint is targeted this time and it dosen't take a rocket scientist to work out that Line is next in the sights!!
Don't be so short sighted! Think about not only your hip pocket but future LAME's.Remeber eventually the numbers of LAME's not covered by these Grandfather clause's will out number those who are and their not going to give a tinkers toss about YOUR conditions if it dosen't apply to them.
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att NUMBSKULL
hey pal, you are a ignorant selfish fool. Can't be bothered? Great attitude for securing and preserving a worthy future in this industry. It is the short sightedness of people such as you that will make this industry not worth working in.
I agree that we will not get much of a better deal, particularly with the incompetent negotiating committee that we are forced to endure (only for approx 12 more long months), but we need to send a clear message to management that we stand as one, and any changes made to our working conditions whether in Line, Heavy, Base or other will need to be negotiated for an outcome that is suitable for all involved.
My point is clear, if LAME's around country want a long and prosperous future, then stick together. Any reduction in conditions regardless how minor or how few they affect, are a reduction in all of our conditions...and for a measly 3%, NO WAY.
We work for Qantas, a company with a great safety record. Why follow in the footsteps of Low Cost Carriers and reduce the wages and conditions of those that ensure this safety record stays in tact?
I agree that we will not get much of a better deal, particularly with the incompetent negotiating committee that we are forced to endure (only for approx 12 more long months), but we need to send a clear message to management that we stand as one, and any changes made to our working conditions whether in Line, Heavy, Base or other will need to be negotiated for an outcome that is suitable for all involved.
My point is clear, if LAME's around country want a long and prosperous future, then stick together. Any reduction in conditions regardless how minor or how few they affect, are a reduction in all of our conditions...and for a measly 3%, NO WAY.
We work for Qantas, a company with a great safety record. Why follow in the footsteps of Low Cost Carriers and reduce the wages and conditions of those that ensure this safety record stays in tact?
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Numskull says "I know people who have worked with OT banking in Avalon and they say it is good. It gives people the opportunity to get extra money as well as extra time off from their horrible roster. The company has to give 48 hrs notice so they can't just spring it on you. That said, the whole thing is voluntary anway so no one can be "shafted".
It has to be the most beneficial OT bank that the company could want. Have a look at the BNE Ame O/T bank..it's much more employee friendly.
But because the only option put forward is the one on the table we could get stuck with the cr@p.
Heavy Maintenance employees don't even get a chance to have a say in their own conditions.
It will be decided by Line and Base employees on the direction of the Federal Executive.
That is why I'm so p!ssed off with the whole thing for a start.
It has to be the most beneficial OT bank that the company could want. Have a look at the BNE Ame O/T bank..it's much more employee friendly.
But because the only option put forward is the one on the table we could get stuck with the cr@p.
Heavy Maintenance employees don't even get a chance to have a say in their own conditions.
It will be decided by Line and Base employees on the direction of the Federal Executive.
That is why I'm so p!ssed off with the whole thing for a start.