The Biggest Aviation Question: Fuel Supply
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It's too late to start building your life. You're forty, or older, and chicks don't dig you anymore, you have no money in the bank, no career and no hope for financial independence.
At least I have financial independence (FOR NOW) and hope - oh well, 2 out of 6 aint bad (?)
Life is for living - some would just like to see it be for living beyond their own lifetimes - maybe for their kids sake.
It is a pity you can not take the time to explain wjy the premise if false - I hope you are right - but nothing you have said convinces me.
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Life as a Journey,
"The idea of denial suggests an underlying truth to assertions made, which appear to be that civilization is coming to a close"
I like your nome de plume, kind of my sentiments also it is a journey, however when you speak of civilisation coming to a close, and when I refer to and tacitly agree with Uncommon Sense, we're not talking doom and gloom of civilisation as a whole, we're talking about the demise of western economies and their basis of productivity on a finite resource, Its plain to see that the US foreign policy is a short term punt (over the course of human history the 20th century zenith of western supremacy is well, 1/20th....) small stuff , a blip, hardly the end times.
However, That affects us , and more importantly will affect our children, as the resources we now use should and must be put to a sustainable plan forward, thing is, Money talks and BS walks, and no one currently in a position of power has the guts to commit what is essentially political suicide for a "prospective" statue some hundred years hence.
As an analyst in the financial services industry, I have no tips, no magic solution, no panacea, but I do see elliotwave for what it is, a money making website, and if I had one piece of advice for younger players (i'm not forty myself) , it is as you say , to enjoy the journey because life is so short, but what will be there when they end their journey, if we make a mess that we won't be around to clean up.
what use is 60 gazillion in shares, if you can't get clean water or air ?
We in OZ are linked by policy, culture and finances to the US, our quality of life (if you can call it that) has been based over the last 4 decades on a position of economic supremacy based on diggin' black stuff outta the ground, when that ends, we had better have made alternate arrangements.
If you have it "made" then fair play to you, it is an enviable position to be in, however how many young ATPLs here with the ink barely dry on their licence will survive if the airline industry takes a few more successive punches ?
Doom and Gloom is one thing, concern about our childrens' future is another.
"The idea of denial suggests an underlying truth to assertions made, which appear to be that civilization is coming to a close"
I like your nome de plume, kind of my sentiments also it is a journey, however when you speak of civilisation coming to a close, and when I refer to and tacitly agree with Uncommon Sense, we're not talking doom and gloom of civilisation as a whole, we're talking about the demise of western economies and their basis of productivity on a finite resource, Its plain to see that the US foreign policy is a short term punt (over the course of human history the 20th century zenith of western supremacy is well, 1/20th....) small stuff , a blip, hardly the end times.
However, That affects us , and more importantly will affect our children, as the resources we now use should and must be put to a sustainable plan forward, thing is, Money talks and BS walks, and no one currently in a position of power has the guts to commit what is essentially political suicide for a "prospective" statue some hundred years hence.
As an analyst in the financial services industry, I have no tips, no magic solution, no panacea, but I do see elliotwave for what it is, a money making website, and if I had one piece of advice for younger players (i'm not forty myself) , it is as you say , to enjoy the journey because life is so short, but what will be there when they end their journey, if we make a mess that we won't be around to clean up.
what use is 60 gazillion in shares, if you can't get clean water or air ?
We in OZ are linked by policy, culture and finances to the US, our quality of life (if you can call it that) has been based over the last 4 decades on a position of economic supremacy based on diggin' black stuff outta the ground, when that ends, we had better have made alternate arrangements.
If you have it "made" then fair play to you, it is an enviable position to be in, however how many young ATPLs here with the ink barely dry on their licence will survive if the airline industry takes a few more successive punches ?
Doom and Gloom is one thing, concern about our childrens' future is another.
Last edited by 7gcbc; 29th Mar 2005 at 10:23.
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i remember when i got my first car, a v8 powered rambler! that the worlds current oil supply will be gone by 2000! hmmmm Global economics will not let aviation die! goverments will continue to prop up airlines, as the cost to their economies will be greater if they fail, and import/exports markets are cut off!
as for rail! the world is 75% WATER! and unless trains learn to float! air is the fastest and cheapest way to move goods over huge distances fast!
and society, and governments will demand newer technologies as the cost of their goods and travel skyrocket due to increasing oil prices.
is there any reason why a turbine engine cant run on ethanol? how much development would be required? to make use of this renewable fuel resource???
necessity is the mother of all invention!!
just look at WWII no one in 1938 would belive that by 1945 aircraft would be powered by Jet engines and travel near the speed of sound! the US went into WWII with cloth and timber bi-planes!
as for rail! the world is 75% WATER! and unless trains learn to float! air is the fastest and cheapest way to move goods over huge distances fast!
and society, and governments will demand newer technologies as the cost of their goods and travel skyrocket due to increasing oil prices.
is there any reason why a turbine engine cant run on ethanol? how much development would be required? to make use of this renewable fuel resource???
necessity is the mother of all invention!!
just look at WWII no one in 1938 would belive that by 1945 aircraft would be powered by Jet engines and travel near the speed of sound! the US went into WWII with cloth and timber bi-planes!
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Ultralights,
Global economics is essentially built on cheap oil isn't it? If it ceases to exist in any familiar guise, global economics can not 'save' aviation - aviation will be an early casualty of the global economic model - by it's very nature. Quite simply - the cost of keeping those aircraft in the sky will outweigh any commerical benefit - no?
Governments will probably 'prop up' airlines, as they do now, but as a political measure at the outset to keep alive dependant industries like tourism - but only to a point. Only to an 'economic' point. The big question really is what is that point?
I disagree with your statement about rail - it is by far the most efficent transport system in terms of energy use, and can be powered by almost any type of common energy. True, rail over vast expanses of water is not practical where existing tunnels (like between UK and EUR) have not already been built. But where would this type of long distance overwater rail transport really be required anyway? Markets would no longer be 'global' as such.
Which makes me wonder about your statement about air travel being 'fast' and 'cheap' over 'long distances' - well, the basis for this whole argument is that oil is NO LONGER cheap. The long distance is not of relevance with a contracting market - therefore the speed becomes irrelevant.
'Society and Government will demand newer technologies'. Yes they will - and they have been for some time! Meanwhile alternative technolgy R&D is essentially controlled by the oil companies at present. To some extent what you say, if I interpret this statement correctly, is that the high cost of oil will make some of these other technolgies viable. Probably. But much of the argument being made is that the lead times required, and the infrastructure required means it should have started 15 years ago - not in another five years.
Biomass Fuels - A calculation I read recently showed that to replace the current oil consumption in the US alone using biomass fuels would require a culitvation area the size of Africa. I don't think Ethanol is the saviour!
Frankly, I hope I am completely wrong and all the scientific data I read from BP, Shell, Amoco and the AEC is wrong - and that those who pronounce 'scaremongerer' loudly are right.
Global economics is essentially built on cheap oil isn't it? If it ceases to exist in any familiar guise, global economics can not 'save' aviation - aviation will be an early casualty of the global economic model - by it's very nature. Quite simply - the cost of keeping those aircraft in the sky will outweigh any commerical benefit - no?
Governments will probably 'prop up' airlines, as they do now, but as a political measure at the outset to keep alive dependant industries like tourism - but only to a point. Only to an 'economic' point. The big question really is what is that point?
I disagree with your statement about rail - it is by far the most efficent transport system in terms of energy use, and can be powered by almost any type of common energy. True, rail over vast expanses of water is not practical where existing tunnels (like between UK and EUR) have not already been built. But where would this type of long distance overwater rail transport really be required anyway? Markets would no longer be 'global' as such.
Which makes me wonder about your statement about air travel being 'fast' and 'cheap' over 'long distances' - well, the basis for this whole argument is that oil is NO LONGER cheap. The long distance is not of relevance with a contracting market - therefore the speed becomes irrelevant.
'Society and Government will demand newer technologies'. Yes they will - and they have been for some time! Meanwhile alternative technolgy R&D is essentially controlled by the oil companies at present. To some extent what you say, if I interpret this statement correctly, is that the high cost of oil will make some of these other technolgies viable. Probably. But much of the argument being made is that the lead times required, and the infrastructure required means it should have started 15 years ago - not in another five years.
Biomass Fuels - A calculation I read recently showed that to replace the current oil consumption in the US alone using biomass fuels would require a culitvation area the size of Africa. I don't think Ethanol is the saviour!
Frankly, I hope I am completely wrong and all the scientific data I read from BP, Shell, Amoco and the AEC is wrong - and that those who pronounce 'scaremongerer' loudly are right.
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The scaremongering is a bit over the top!! Cars will convert to electric as the price of fuel soars.It has already started.
Planes can run for some time on the remaining fuel oil reserves(assuming they don't find any more-which I'm sure they will as it becomes more lucrative!!).
I'm sure gas turbine engines can be converted to run on some version of biodiesel.
Air travel will get more expensive as it is ridiculously cheap to fly at the moment. Governments will eventually get sick of supporting or bailing out the inefficient airlines and air fares will go up once this happens.
Maybe a new technology will come to the fore in the next 20 years that no one has even foreseen(ie computers and internet)
maybe someone will invent a teleporter and all the redundant pilots can be trained as space shuttle drivers.
The world will still turn even if there are a few less aircraft zooming through the atmosphere. You never know, It may even be a good thing as far as fresh air and less greenhouse gasses go. Don't be frightened of change.Nothing ever stay the same for long- especially in the airline industry!!!1
Planes can run for some time on the remaining fuel oil reserves(assuming they don't find any more-which I'm sure they will as it becomes more lucrative!!).
I'm sure gas turbine engines can be converted to run on some version of biodiesel.
Air travel will get more expensive as it is ridiculously cheap to fly at the moment. Governments will eventually get sick of supporting or bailing out the inefficient airlines and air fares will go up once this happens.
Maybe a new technology will come to the fore in the next 20 years that no one has even foreseen(ie computers and internet)
maybe someone will invent a teleporter and all the redundant pilots can be trained as space shuttle drivers.
The world will still turn even if there are a few less aircraft zooming through the atmosphere. You never know, It may even be a good thing as far as fresh air and less greenhouse gasses go. Don't be frightened of change.Nothing ever stay the same for long- especially in the airline industry!!!1
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Is just facing up to the reality that oil is a finite resource 'scaremongering'?
From todays press:
"Govt should listen to OPEC, say Greens
Tuesday, 29 March 2005, 6:06 pm
Press Release: Green Party
Govt should listen to OPEC, say Greens
Energy Minister Trevor Mallard confirmed in the House today that he hadnt heard the latest OPEC news when he claimed last week that Peak Oil is still thirty years away.
OPEC producers said on 16 March that they are already pumping as fast as they can, with the Qatari Oil Minister saying, OPEC has done all it can do. The US Department of Energy, on whose forecasts the Government generally relies, said Saudi Arabia, the only OPEC country believed to have excess capacity, is already pumping at 90 per cent of the maximum possible rate. A trader on the New York Mercantile Exchange subsequently took out a futures option to buy oil at US$100 a barrel in June. "
Source: http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0503/S00543.htm
From todays press:
"Govt should listen to OPEC, say Greens
Tuesday, 29 March 2005, 6:06 pm
Press Release: Green Party
Govt should listen to OPEC, say Greens
Energy Minister Trevor Mallard confirmed in the House today that he hadnt heard the latest OPEC news when he claimed last week that Peak Oil is still thirty years away.
OPEC producers said on 16 March that they are already pumping as fast as they can, with the Qatari Oil Minister saying, OPEC has done all it can do. The US Department of Energy, on whose forecasts the Government generally relies, said Saudi Arabia, the only OPEC country believed to have excess capacity, is already pumping at 90 per cent of the maximum possible rate. A trader on the New York Mercantile Exchange subsequently took out a futures option to buy oil at US$100 a barrel in June. "
Source: http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0503/S00543.htm
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There are repeated mentions of how expensive air travel is (in terms of fuel used). However these comments somewhat miss the mark - which is:
Take a medium size family car :
10 kms / Litre nominal fuel consumption.
Take a modern jet twin (say B777) :
8000 kgs / hr fuel consumption =
9600 liters / hour
But it does 910 kms in an hour (490 x 1.85)
So that is (9600/910) 10.55 liters / km =
0.095 kms / litre. But it carries 300 people =
28.4 people kms/litre
Doing the same for the car - it has to carry 2.8 people to make the same numbers.
Now we can argue all night about cars carrying 3-5 people and B777s full to the hat racks - but the point, I think, is clear.
What is more interesting is to think about the conversion from petrol/oil based fuels to electricity (disregarding a storage medium and energy density for the moment - if only we could - sigh!)
I don't have the time right now to put the numbers down (work calls) - perhaps someone else can. Here are some vital stats needed :
1 Litre of petrol / Jet A1 = 8.6 - 9.2KWh
1 AA battery (rechargeable) = 3Wh
1 large car battery (50Ah) = 660Wh
Conversion efficiencies :
ICE (interal combustion engine) - 30-35%
High Bypass Jet - 45-55%
Electric Motor - 80-95%
Take a medium size family car :
10 kms / Litre nominal fuel consumption.
Take a modern jet twin (say B777) :
8000 kgs / hr fuel consumption =
9600 liters / hour
But it does 910 kms in an hour (490 x 1.85)
So that is (9600/910) 10.55 liters / km =
0.095 kms / litre. But it carries 300 people =
28.4 people kms/litre
Doing the same for the car - it has to carry 2.8 people to make the same numbers.
Now we can argue all night about cars carrying 3-5 people and B777s full to the hat racks - but the point, I think, is clear.
What is more interesting is to think about the conversion from petrol/oil based fuels to electricity (disregarding a storage medium and energy density for the moment - if only we could - sigh!)
I don't have the time right now to put the numbers down (work calls) - perhaps someone else can. Here are some vital stats needed :
1 Litre of petrol / Jet A1 = 8.6 - 9.2KWh
1 AA battery (rechargeable) = 3Wh
1 large car battery (50Ah) = 660Wh
Conversion efficiencies :
ICE (interal combustion engine) - 30-35%
High Bypass Jet - 45-55%
Electric Motor - 80-95%
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Further....
Source: NZ Herald / REUTERS
Oil: Price surges US$2 on 'super-spike' prediction
01.04.05 8.40am
LONDON - Oil hurtled back up to US$56 a barrel on Thursday as Goldman Sachs bank, the biggest trader of energy derivatives, said prices could ultimately surge all the way above US$100.
The Goldman Sachs report strengthened gains driven by a fall in US petrol stocks and fresh buying from investment funds as the dollar weakened.
US light crude jumped US$2.11, or 3.9 per cent, to a high of US$56.10 a barrel, within US$1.50 of a US$57.60 record high struck on March 17........ read more..
Source: NZ Herald / REUTERS
Oil: Price surges US$2 on 'super-spike' prediction
01.04.05 8.40am
LONDON - Oil hurtled back up to US$56 a barrel on Thursday as Goldman Sachs bank, the biggest trader of energy derivatives, said prices could ultimately surge all the way above US$100.
The Goldman Sachs report strengthened gains driven by a fall in US petrol stocks and fresh buying from investment funds as the dollar weakened.
US light crude jumped US$2.11, or 3.9 per cent, to a high of US$56.10 a barrel, within US$1.50 of a US$57.60 record high struck on March 17........ read more..
Last edited by Nomorecrap; 1st Apr 2005 at 06:39.
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Fri "The Australian"
Discount fares rising as soaring oil prices hit carriers, says bureau
Steve Creedy
April 01, 2005
RISING oil prices are starting to affect discount air fares, with one official government measure showing a 26 per cent jump between July and February.
The Bureau of Transport and Regional Economics (BTRE) domestic air fare index indicates average discount air fares have been rising gradually since hitting a low last July after the launch of Jetstar services.
A February index for best return discount air fares, compiled using the Sabre reservations system, showed ticket prices rose more than 26 per cent. But a similar index using the internet which gives a better indication of the impact on average prices of ticket availability, the bureau says recorded an 11.8 per cent rise.
Prices are still lower than the same time in 2004, when air fares were trending downwards, and less than two-thirds of the average price in November 2000.
Click here for FULL story
============================================
Discount fares rising as soaring oil prices hit carriers, says bureau
Steve Creedy
April 01, 2005
RISING oil prices are starting to affect discount air fares, with one official government measure showing a 26 per cent jump between July and February.
The Bureau of Transport and Regional Economics (BTRE) domestic air fare index indicates average discount air fares have been rising gradually since hitting a low last July after the launch of Jetstar services.
A February index for best return discount air fares, compiled using the Sabre reservations system, showed ticket prices rose more than 26 per cent. But a similar index using the internet which gives a better indication of the impact on average prices of ticket availability, the bureau says recorded an 11.8 per cent rise.
Prices are still lower than the same time in 2004, when air fares were trending downwards, and less than two-thirds of the average price in November 2000.
Click here for FULL story
============================================
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The Soothsayers of Doom should consider that 30 years ago Lockheed developed a viable concept hydrogen powered aircraft of 300 plus seats.
The project didn't proceed as the cost of producing the hydrogen significantly exceeded the then price of oil at US$7.00 per barrel! The project was finally shelved in 1998 when the price of oil dropped to US$10 per barrel.
My guess the Skunk Works may well be dusting off the file again.
Woomera
The project didn't proceed as the cost of producing the hydrogen significantly exceeded the then price of oil at US$7.00 per barrel! The project was finally shelved in 1998 when the price of oil dropped to US$10 per barrel.
My guess the Skunk Works may well be dusting off the file again.
Woomera
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Latest estimates from financial institutes in the 'states' are for prices to go as high as $US105 per barrel , needless to say that will be a disaster for aviation. However, judging by the numbers of views of this thread, nobody really gives a toss? (1728 vs 16800 for QF Tech crew F/A altercation cancels flight) 
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Life as a journey, Ultralights, numbskull:
The SMH story posted by Nomorecrap addresses your dismissals fairly well. Take the time to read it.
As for market forces sorting things out...
The SMH story posted by Nomorecrap addresses your dismissals fairly well. Take the time to read it.
The industry journal Oil & Gas Journal says a series of oil shocks could unfold - we may be in one now - with more to come in 2010 and 2015. After surviving the oil shock of the 1970s, consumers in the richer nations became insensitive to doomsday scenarios. Consumption kept rising but production kept pace. The honeymoon appears to be over. In 2003, for the first time since the 1920s, no oilfield of 500 million barrels a day or more was discovered anywhere. For every four barrels of oil we consume, only one new barrel is found. ... in 2003, $8 billion was spent on exploration which found oil worth only $4 billion.
At the Centre for International Economics in Canberra, such hard choices are no bad thing. "To an economist, high prices are the solution to the problem. As long as we let markets work correctly, we'll get through this in the cheapest possible way," says the executive-director, Andrew Stoeckel. However, to Victorian Liberal Senator Tsebin Tchen, that sounds like an economic rationalist's version of Marie Antoinette's "let them eat cake". "That's how revolutions happen. It's a very painful and risky way of doing it," he says.
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Duff Man,
Even the excerpt from that article was subtley but signnificantly wrong due typo:
What they should have said was 500 million barrels TOTAL - i.e. for the life of the field. Bear in mind that is less than one week supply for the world.
The best any field in the world currently produces in the world is Ghawar - it only produces 4 million barrels per day, and declining - and it dwarfs any other extraction field.
Even the excerpt from that article was subtley but signnificantly wrong due typo:
for the first time since the 1920s, no oilfield of 500 million barrels a day or more was discovered anywhere
The best any field in the world currently produces in the world is Ghawar - it only produces 4 million barrels per day, and declining - and it dwarfs any other extraction field.
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Related: If you want to check fuels prices in your area, and fill up cheap (including those of us with LPG), check this website:
http://motormouth.com.au/pricesearch.aspx
Does not help with AVTUR/AVGAS unfortunately.
http://motormouth.com.au/pricesearch.aspx
Does not help with AVTUR/AVGAS unfortunately.
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Rokape,
Like you infer, I too am still amazed the excited titilation on the antics with the old and well worn "FA and/or gay bashing" leanings of this website warrant more attention than the possible future extinction of the very careers of our Professional Pilot ranks!
It just seems to reinforce my own belief that a decent swag of contributors to this D&G are neither pilots nor professional - those who are, will usually get sledged or drowned out by the background noise.
Bit like the principle of 'reality' TV, or even mainstream politics - all fluff and little substance!
It seems to me this subject will be the dominant one across the developed world within the next 12 months - especially in Commerical Aviation and tourist dependant states/nations.
All this despite the statements of the US Commander-in-Thief, we see that the American 'lifestyle' will indeed be 'negotiable' - after all, the cost of sustaining it has already reached close to $60US/bl - doubled in the last 18 months. Not negotiable?
I don't think so.
Some of the majors, or legacy carriers, in the US must have around 3-6 months before we hear that even Chap 11 will not keep them running - when even OPEC is scared the party is well and truly over. (Here come the cut conditions for staff argument again!)
http://www.cavalierdaily.com/CVArtic...22974&pid=1281
Like you infer, I too am still amazed the excited titilation on the antics with the old and well worn "FA and/or gay bashing" leanings of this website warrant more attention than the possible future extinction of the very careers of our Professional Pilot ranks!
It just seems to reinforce my own belief that a decent swag of contributors to this D&G are neither pilots nor professional - those who are, will usually get sledged or drowned out by the background noise.
Bit like the principle of 'reality' TV, or even mainstream politics - all fluff and little substance!
It seems to me this subject will be the dominant one across the developed world within the next 12 months - especially in Commerical Aviation and tourist dependant states/nations.
All this despite the statements of the US Commander-in-Thief, we see that the American 'lifestyle' will indeed be 'negotiable' - after all, the cost of sustaining it has already reached close to $60US/bl - doubled in the last 18 months. Not negotiable?
I don't think so.
Some of the majors, or legacy carriers, in the US must have around 3-6 months before we hear that even Chap 11 will not keep them running - when even OPEC is scared the party is well and truly over. (Here come the cut conditions for staff argument again!)
http://www.cavalierdaily.com/CVArtic...22974&pid=1281
Last edited by Nomorecrap; 5th Apr 2005 at 02:32.
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From yesterday's SMH letters
Lack of planning is the real tragedy of oil crisis
Why are we so incapable of planning for the long-term future ("Running on empty", Herald, April 2-3)?
I learnt about what we now call peak oil and climate change in high school about 25 years ago. We were told that oil is a finite resource, expected to peak soon after 2000. Alternatives were necessary, including more energy-efficient transport. Oil could be made from coal, which was much more abundant, but the added release of carbon dioxide could potentially warm the globe (then a theory). Alternatives to coal were also required.
A quarter of a century later I live in north-west Sydney, waiting in vain for the long-overdue north-west railway, which would make my journey to work in the city less oil-dependent. And there is still no affordable means to power my house other than electricity from coal.
How can Sydney remain a global city without an energy-efficient mass transport system at its core? Why is Australia so miserly in investing in alternative energy research? These are not new problems. Why are they being put off for a last-minute panic?
Bruce Tabor Stanhope Gardens
Hey, here's an idea: with the price of oil soaring as a result of increased demand and reserves running out, let's shut down our manufacturing industries and lock the Australian economy and Australians' standard of living in to dependence on shipping cheaply huge quantities of raw materials to economies that depend on continued cheap oil such as the US and China and on industries such as tourism that rely on cheap air travel.
Oh, you don't think it's a good idea, either?
Gordon Drennan Burton (SA)
Reading the predictions about oil makes building yet another new motorway for Sydney seem even more shortsighted. Surely the Government should start addressing the problem of transporting people rather than the symptom of congested roads?
Neville Brown Croydon
Lack of planning is the real tragedy of oil crisis
Why are we so incapable of planning for the long-term future ("Running on empty", Herald, April 2-3)?
I learnt about what we now call peak oil and climate change in high school about 25 years ago. We were told that oil is a finite resource, expected to peak soon after 2000. Alternatives were necessary, including more energy-efficient transport. Oil could be made from coal, which was much more abundant, but the added release of carbon dioxide could potentially warm the globe (then a theory). Alternatives to coal were also required.
A quarter of a century later I live in north-west Sydney, waiting in vain for the long-overdue north-west railway, which would make my journey to work in the city less oil-dependent. And there is still no affordable means to power my house other than electricity from coal.
How can Sydney remain a global city without an energy-efficient mass transport system at its core? Why is Australia so miserly in investing in alternative energy research? These are not new problems. Why are they being put off for a last-minute panic?
Bruce Tabor Stanhope Gardens
Hey, here's an idea: with the price of oil soaring as a result of increased demand and reserves running out, let's shut down our manufacturing industries and lock the Australian economy and Australians' standard of living in to dependence on shipping cheaply huge quantities of raw materials to economies that depend on continued cheap oil such as the US and China and on industries such as tourism that rely on cheap air travel.
Oh, you don't think it's a good idea, either?
Gordon Drennan Burton (SA)
Reading the predictions about oil makes building yet another new motorway for Sydney seem even more shortsighted. Surely the Government should start addressing the problem of transporting people rather than the symptom of congested roads?
Neville Brown Croydon
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Airline Profits hit by Oil Price
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4411169.stm
Airlines face $5.5B Loss
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/7384822/
Worlds First(?) Gas Powered Truck
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems...4/s1338774.htm
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Here
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NMC, you might be right about a pending crisis.
Then again you might not be.
I tend to think you aren't right, which is not an accident of mine.
Nor is it a position I've stumbled on through a lack of widespread reading (eclectic?) or industry-specific awareness (erudite?).
It doesn't follow that I am not a pilot or that I'm not professional, which is what you just said.
Keep writing, friend.
I'm reading everything I can, as are many others, most of whom are far more professional than me.
But I, like many others, tend to stop reading when the writer reverts to an ad hominem framework.
Just a thought.
Then again you might not be.
I tend to think you aren't right, which is not an accident of mine.
Nor is it a position I've stumbled on through a lack of widespread reading (eclectic?) or industry-specific awareness (erudite?).
It doesn't follow that I am not a pilot or that I'm not professional, which is what you just said.
Keep writing, friend.
I'm reading everything I can, as are many others, most of whom are far more professional than me.
But I, like many others, tend to stop reading when the writer reverts to an ad hominem framework.
Just a thought.
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: In Limbo
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LAAJ:
Sorry if you feel I am 'playing the man', rather than the argument.
You say you hold both the 'P's - good for you and good for the debate.
I never suggested otherwise as you infer - I am pleased to see you haven't stopped reading my arguments just yet despite the misunderstanding.
The issue is oil.
Time will tell how right or wrong the various personalities are.
Sorry if you feel I am 'playing the man', rather than the argument.
You say you hold both the 'P's - good for you and good for the debate.
I never suggested otherwise as you infer - I am pleased to see you haven't stopped reading my arguments just yet despite the misunderstanding.
The issue is oil.
Time will tell how right or wrong the various personalities are.