Screening of crew operating screened air services
I have a problem understanding how the area after the screening line is considered sterile when for example at Sydney domestic there is a McDonalds and various cafes and bars. I had a look around and saw plenty of sharp tools in this area, for example on the counter in front of me was a spike to hold order dockets, loose not fixed to the counter. So how on earth is the area sterile? There is no further screening between the cafes and the aircraft.
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You CAN carry your Leatherman in a Security Restriced Area
Icarus, that is because they are tools of trade.
They are normally "Prohibited Items" as defined by Regulation 1.07 (pages 21 to 28 of the Aviation Transport Security Regulations 2005, download .pdf here
Section 4 of the ATSR's allows certain persons to carry weapons and prohibited items through screening to within the security restricted area and on board aircraft
The Maccas employees may be (1) deemed employees of an aviation industry participant and therefore allowed to have tools of tradeor more likely (2) their kitchen is not 'in' the security restricted area.
Which brings us to an interesting point.
You CAN take your leatherman through.
Although ATSR 1.07 might say that your leatherman or small tool is a Prohibited Item,
ATSR 4.62 (page 146) and ATSR 4.65 allow you as an employee of an aviation industry participant, to carry within a secure area an onto your aircraft, a Tool Of Trade
If you are the pilot of a "Class B" aircraft, Civil Aviation Regulation 42ZC allows you as the pilot to carry out some maintenance tasks. Your leatherman, of course, is to assist you with such tasks. You are therefore carrying your leatherman as a tool of trade for a lawful purpose.
If you are the pilot of a "Class A" aircraft (you probably have system of maintenance that includes MEL), CAR 42ZC permits you to carry out such maintenance as you are approved by the aircraft's MEL or delegated maintenance authorities, such as pre-flight inspections.
Again, you are therefore carrying your leatherman into the secure area and onto your aeroplane as a tool of trade for a lawful purpose.
If they stop you, quote the CARs and their ATSR's back at them, then ask them if they are prepared to cop the responsibility of a delay while they look it up
They are normally "Prohibited Items" as defined by Regulation 1.07 (pages 21 to 28 of the Aviation Transport Security Regulations 2005, download .pdf here
Section 4 of the ATSR's allows certain persons to carry weapons and prohibited items through screening to within the security restricted area and on board aircraft
The Maccas employees may be (1) deemed employees of an aviation industry participant and therefore allowed to have tools of tradeor more likely (2) their kitchen is not 'in' the security restricted area.
Which brings us to an interesting point.
You CAN take your leatherman through.
Although ATSR 1.07 might say that your leatherman or small tool is a Prohibited Item,
ATSR 4.62 (page 146) and ATSR 4.65 allow you as an employee of an aviation industry participant, to carry within a secure area an onto your aircraft, a Tool Of Trade
If you are the pilot of a "Class B" aircraft, Civil Aviation Regulation 42ZC allows you as the pilot to carry out some maintenance tasks. Your leatherman, of course, is to assist you with such tasks. You are therefore carrying your leatherman as a tool of trade for a lawful purpose.
If you are the pilot of a "Class A" aircraft (you probably have system of maintenance that includes MEL), CAR 42ZC permits you to carry out such maintenance as you are approved by the aircraft's MEL or delegated maintenance authorities, such as pre-flight inspections.
Again, you are therefore carrying your leatherman into the secure area and onto your aeroplane as a tool of trade for a lawful purpose.
If they stop you, quote the CARs and their ATSR's back at them, then ask them if they are prepared to cop the responsibility of a delay while they look it up
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Dear ITCZ - sounding a bit testy old chap, after reading your profile I can see why. Has cyclone "Ingrid" being bouncing you around?
Has any pilot been refused an ASIC card? I understand that there have been cards withdrawn or not issued, in cases where criminal charges have not being disclosed or have been proven. In the case of arguing with Group 4, no, not at this stage.
How-ever, I am sure if you strutted through the security at Darwin and said in a loud voice that you were not going to be screened and continued on into the screened area, I am sure that Group 4 would watch you on your way and just notify APS to go and get you. I suppose that is when you would draw the secret weapon and threaten them with a ministerial enquiry. I could just imagine them running from you in great fear!
DOTR's are being tolerant at airports where full screening of flight crews is being introduced. Like all regulations there is some amending to be done, but as time goes on the tolerance will be less, and whether you threaten them with a ministerial or not, they do have the power to have a persons ASIC card suspended or withdrawn for a breach of security regulations.
My main concern is that their appears to be a variation in sensitivty of individual scanning machines. Does this mean that some items are not being detected in carry on baggage, and are being carried on board?
Has any pilot been refused an ASIC card? I understand that there have been cards withdrawn or not issued, in cases where criminal charges have not being disclosed or have been proven. In the case of arguing with Group 4, no, not at this stage.
How-ever, I am sure if you strutted through the security at Darwin and said in a loud voice that you were not going to be screened and continued on into the screened area, I am sure that Group 4 would watch you on your way and just notify APS to go and get you. I suppose that is when you would draw the secret weapon and threaten them with a ministerial enquiry. I could just imagine them running from you in great fear!
DOTR's are being tolerant at airports where full screening of flight crews is being introduced. Like all regulations there is some amending to be done, but as time goes on the tolerance will be less, and whether you threaten them with a ministerial or not, they do have the power to have a persons ASIC card suspended or withdrawn for a breach of security regulations.
My main concern is that their appears to be a variation in sensitivty of individual scanning machines. Does this mean that some items are not being detected in carry on baggage, and are being carried on board?
Bottums Up
A bluddy great big thumbs up to ITCZ.
I got pinged with my Leatherman at a regional airport screening point yesterday, despite not being questioned about it the previous two security screenings at Captal City airport screening points.
Showed the appropriate pages re tools of trade, from the link provided by ITCZ, and hey presto, Leatherman and I make it though unscathed and unseparated.
I got pinged with my Leatherman at a regional airport screening point yesterday, despite not being questioned about it the previous two security screenings at Captal City airport screening points.
Showed the appropriate pages re tools of trade, from the link provided by ITCZ, and hey presto, Leatherman and I make it though unscathed and unseparated.
Thanks ITCZ! 4.53 (2) seems to cover us simple PPL types as well.
(2) A person is authorised to have a weapon (other than a firearm)
in his or her possession in a secure area if:
(a) the weapon is a tool of trade; and
(b) the person keeps control of the weapon at all times.
(3) For paragraph (2) (b), the person ceases to have control of the
weapon if he or she gives possession of it to, or allows it to be
accessible to, a person for whom it is not a tool of trade.
(4) For paragraph (2) (a) and subregulation (3), something is a tool
of trade if:
(a) the person whose possession it is in requires it for the
purpose for which he or she is in the relevant area or zone;
and
(b) the purpose is lawful.
(2) A person is authorised to have a weapon (other than a firearm)
in his or her possession in a secure area if:
(a) the weapon is a tool of trade; and
(b) the person keeps control of the weapon at all times.
(3) For paragraph (2) (b), the person ceases to have control of the
weapon if he or she gives possession of it to, or allows it to be
accessible to, a person for whom it is not a tool of trade.
(4) For paragraph (2) (a) and subregulation (3), something is a tool
of trade if:
(a) the person whose possession it is in requires it for the
purpose for which he or she is in the relevant area or zone;
and
(b) the purpose is lawful.
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Dog one, no, I am quite used to cyclones. Lots of rain, cooler temperatures and steady winds; quite pleasant (apart from the possibility that half a million dollars of my real estate could be flattened in an hour or two and there is bugger-all I can do about it).
What does get me testy are the uninformed assertions dressed up as fact, made by folk such as yourself, particularly if they fuel the fears of some of our less assertive colleagues.
This might be a rumour forum, but when someone uses a throwaway remark as the basis for an argument, particularly an argument that suggests that experienced airline pilots put up with bulldust from someone that was until recently bouncing drunks at nightclubs, or checking eskies for booze at the SCG gates, expect it to be jumped on.
Thank you Clarrie for road testing my post. I'm glad that your leatherman is back in your nav bag, where it belongs
What does get me testy are the uninformed assertions dressed up as fact, made by folk such as yourself, particularly if they fuel the fears of some of our less assertive colleagues.
This might be a rumour forum, but when someone uses a throwaway remark as the basis for an argument, particularly an argument that suggests that experienced airline pilots put up with bulldust from someone that was until recently bouncing drunks at nightclubs, or checking eskies for booze at the SCG gates, expect it to be jumped on.
Thank you Clarrie for road testing my post. I'm glad that your leatherman is back in your nav bag, where it belongs
Last edited by ITCZ; 1st Apr 2005 at 13:30.
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ITCZ:
To lose your ASIC you would have to plant a bomb, be photographed chanting in the front row of an Al-Quaida rally, or be convicted (not accused) of a major crime such as manslaughter, murder or rape.
good work btw
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I'm curious about something in the Act/Regs...
In Part 4.08 Paragraph 2 of the Regulations it says:
A person must be screened and cleared before boarding an aircraft if:
the aircraft is to operate a screened air service; and
the person is a passenger on, or a member of the crew of, the aircraft.
And yet this is contradicted by Part 4.11 which says (only 2 pages later) that anyone properly displaying an ASIC and in the class (among others) "employees of the operator of a screened air service aircraft" may enter a sterile area other than through a screening point...
Part 4.11 is written for Paragraph 41 (2)(c) of the Act, which says a person is in receipt of clearance if the person enters a cleared area, zone or aircraft other than through a screening point and the regulations provide , or the Secretary by written notice provides, that the person may enter the area, zone or aircraft that way.
It appears that the regulations if read from a certain angle do indeed provide this clearance, as pilots are employed by the operator of a screened air service and generally have an ASIC.
Am I reading this right??
In Part 4.08 Paragraph 2 of the Regulations it says:
A person must be screened and cleared before boarding an aircraft if:
the aircraft is to operate a screened air service; and
the person is a passenger on, or a member of the crew of, the aircraft.
And yet this is contradicted by Part 4.11 which says (only 2 pages later) that anyone properly displaying an ASIC and in the class (among others) "employees of the operator of a screened air service aircraft" may enter a sterile area other than through a screening point...
Part 4.11 is written for Paragraph 41 (2)(c) of the Act, which says a person is in receipt of clearance if the person enters a cleared area, zone or aircraft other than through a screening point and the regulations provide , or the Secretary by written notice provides, that the person may enter the area, zone or aircraft that way.
It appears that the regulations if read from a certain angle do indeed provide this clearance, as pilots are employed by the operator of a screened air service and generally have an ASIC.
Am I reading this right??
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Why are we all getting so excited about this?
If this screening legitimately causes delays and our companies are happy to accept them, why would we care. Let the companies do the fighting.
Smile, be happy and polite and let us respect other Aussies trying to do their job to the best of their ability. Are we that special and precious?
If this screening legitimately causes delays and our companies are happy to accept them, why would we care. Let the companies do the fighting.
Smile, be happy and polite and let us respect other Aussies trying to do their job to the best of their ability. Are we that special and precious?
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I just wish I knew what the new security procedures are trying to achieve….
Passengers are screened
Passenger bags don’t have to be screened unless international
Operating Crew are screened
Baggage handlers, cleaners, caterers and airline employees don’t have to be screened.
So what is to stop someone placing a bomb in the baggage area or a gun in a seat pocket to be collected by an accompanist?
Are they assuming that the crew is the major concern?
All operating crew have been thoroughly checked out before issuing an ASIC identification card.
There is one important check this is not done and that is to check the photo on the ID against the person who is displaying it…..
Passengers are screened
Passenger bags don’t have to be screened unless international
Operating Crew are screened
Baggage handlers, cleaners, caterers and airline employees don’t have to be screened.
So what is to stop someone placing a bomb in the baggage area or a gun in a seat pocket to be collected by an accompanist?
Are they assuming that the crew is the major concern?
All operating crew have been thoroughly checked out before issuing an ASIC identification card.
There is one important check this is not done and that is to check the photo on the ID against the person who is displaying it…..
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ITCZ
Next time you pass through Gove, see how much luck you have getting your leatherman past Blue. They don'twant to loose that one little bit of power they thought they had over the pilots and try reading every reg differently to the crews to keep it.
Next time you pass through Gove, see how much luck you have getting your leatherman past Blue. They don'twant to loose that one little bit of power they thought they had over the pilots and try reading every reg differently to the crews to keep it.
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And listen, does anyone know what's the deal with the BNE nazis? Transitted through the international terminal a few days ago. Headed into the QF briefing office as a dozen unscreened cleaners came onboard (but I digress....). Despite this office being "airside" (from the street you would pass through the nazi check point), for a transit it's not considered airside so to return to the rocket you have to go say hi to the transit nazi checkpoint. Meanwhile the unscreened engineers, loaders, cleaners, customer service agents are going to/fro the aircraft unrestricted....
And after passing through the beep-machine, and the aforesaid beep-machine remaining SILENT, a nazi says "can I see under your hat?"
I say: "why, machine no go beep, right?"
Nazi: "I just have to see under your hat"
Me: "well, do you want to check my pockets, etc, as well for whatever it was that DIDN'T go beep?"
Nazi" "no just your hat... regulations, mumble, waffle, b/s, b/s"
Guess what? Nothing under the hat! How about that?
So don't hide anything in your hats, ok? Down your trouser leg will be fine, though.
Spare me....................
And after passing through the beep-machine, and the aforesaid beep-machine remaining SILENT, a nazi says "can I see under your hat?"
I say: "why, machine no go beep, right?"
Nazi: "I just have to see under your hat"
Me: "well, do you want to check my pockets, etc, as well for whatever it was that DIDN'T go beep?"
Nazi" "no just your hat... regulations, mumble, waffle, b/s, b/s"
Guess what? Nothing under the hat! How about that?
So don't hide anything in your hats, ok? Down your trouser leg will be fine, though.
Spare me....................
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dotrs regs
Skyways,
You are correct there is a clear directive that says with a ASIC you can enter a sterile area without going through the screening point.
Personally I am far more concerned with a person entering the A/C and then getting off especially cleaners, than crew who will go down with the ship!!
DOTRS need in threat assessment not overplay the 9/11 scenario. It is far more likely that persons wanting to learn to fly but not take off or land large jet A/C will be extensively researched and questioned.
Therefore the next attack is likely to be a bomb on board breaching security via cleaners caterers ground-handlers etc. The other likely attack is by loading up a reasonable sized aircraft with high explosives flying it through our non radar country and plowing it into the MCG grand final.
These scenarios are probably worth more attention than the pilots shoes.
As a matter of interest if they confiscate your nail file do you use the steel forks in business class or the axe in the cabin? If it is the former I hope you do not replace it back in the tray, the blue cheese is already quite potent !!
You are correct there is a clear directive that says with a ASIC you can enter a sterile area without going through the screening point.
Personally I am far more concerned with a person entering the A/C and then getting off especially cleaners, than crew who will go down with the ship!!
DOTRS need in threat assessment not overplay the 9/11 scenario. It is far more likely that persons wanting to learn to fly but not take off or land large jet A/C will be extensively researched and questioned.
Therefore the next attack is likely to be a bomb on board breaching security via cleaners caterers ground-handlers etc. The other likely attack is by loading up a reasonable sized aircraft with high explosives flying it through our non radar country and plowing it into the MCG grand final.
These scenarios are probably worth more attention than the pilots shoes.
As a matter of interest if they confiscate your nail file do you use the steel forks in business class or the axe in the cabin? If it is the former I hope you do not replace it back in the tray, the blue cheese is already quite potent !!
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It’s a joke
These security guards are trying to flex their muscle against pilots because it the first time they have been able to hassle some one in a uniform, and they love it
In Melbourne we use to walk through a vehicle access gate and airside back to our aircraft, now ever since a female SS officer in disguise decided to throw a hissy fit we cant walk through the gate, we can walk to the gate and from the gate airside but have to be in a vehicle to cross onto airside. It is so silly that I was waiting for a car to come up and the security officer in question allowed me to sit on the back of a truck to go the 30cm distance through the gate so I could then walk back to my aircraft.
I also heard of a pilot getting screened and undressed to say in frustration what do you think I am going to smuggle a bomb on my own aircraft, they had a group of APS officers waiting for them and a large interview soon followed with threats of fines and jail terms.
As a captain I don’t need a weapon to hijack my aircraft, that aeroplane is going were I decide to take it, If I said to my FO change of plan we are going here they would say ok. But there is no reason for any pilot to do that.
As has been stated the terrorists are unlikely to use another aircraft as a weapon because it is what we are expecting, the government should be looking at other ways to stop these idiots.
Keep carrying those tools of trade.
These security guards are trying to flex their muscle against pilots because it the first time they have been able to hassle some one in a uniform, and they love it
In Melbourne we use to walk through a vehicle access gate and airside back to our aircraft, now ever since a female SS officer in disguise decided to throw a hissy fit we cant walk through the gate, we can walk to the gate and from the gate airside but have to be in a vehicle to cross onto airside. It is so silly that I was waiting for a car to come up and the security officer in question allowed me to sit on the back of a truck to go the 30cm distance through the gate so I could then walk back to my aircraft.
I also heard of a pilot getting screened and undressed to say in frustration what do you think I am going to smuggle a bomb on my own aircraft, they had a group of APS officers waiting for them and a large interview soon followed with threats of fines and jail terms.
As a captain I don’t need a weapon to hijack my aircraft, that aeroplane is going were I decide to take it, If I said to my FO change of plan we are going here they would say ok. But there is no reason for any pilot to do that.
As has been stated the terrorists are unlikely to use another aircraft as a weapon because it is what we are expecting, the government should be looking at other ways to stop these idiots.
Keep carrying those tools of trade.
