Question for the '89ers
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Question for the '89ers
In amongst the usual sledging that QF pilots receive on this forum, there is the persistent assertion that anything bad that comes their way is thoroughly deserved due to their lack of support for the AFAP in 1989.
I have challenged this assertion many times, but never received a reply. Can I (once again) ask a serious question and get a serious answer?
Q. Given that AIPA was and still is a separate union to the AFAP, and was not in dispute with Qantas in 1989, what precise level of support did you expect?
Can we keep it civil please?
I have challenged this assertion many times, but never received a reply. Can I (once again) ask a serious question and get a serious answer?
Q. Given that AIPA was and still is a separate union to the AFAP, and was not in dispute with Qantas in 1989, what precise level of support did you expect?
Can we keep it civil please?
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Now that Ansett (the hot favourite for b!tching) is gone there's no one else to turn to when you feel like b!tching about ancient history, I suppose.
And you have to remember, Qantas (domestic) is just as full of scarboroughs as Ansett was. I guess they hoped they would be forgotten hiding in there quietly.
By accepting the merger, the AIPA accepted the baggage the TN (was it??) guys brought in with them......
But let's listen to Kaptin M, Amos, oldbeard and the others who never give up or let go. I woulda thought hatred and bile woulda killed them off years ago...
Where IS amos these days,anyway?????
And you have to remember, Qantas (domestic) is just as full of scarboroughs as Ansett was. I guess they hoped they would be forgotten hiding in there quietly.
By accepting the merger, the AIPA accepted the baggage the TN (was it??) guys brought in with them......
But let's listen to Kaptin M, Amos, oldbeard and the others who never give up or let go. I woulda thought hatred and bile woulda killed them off years ago...
Where IS amos these days,anyway?????
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And somebody should ask about the letter that the Chief Pilot sent to all ex Australian Airlines pilots on the A330 about their low standard of operation and knowledge recently.
Very interesting position for a Chief Pilot to take about his own pilots. But, then again, if the cap fits......
Very interesting position for a Chief Pilot to take about his own pilots. But, then again, if the cap fits......
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The_Cutest_of_Borg, sadly, the Qantas pilots sealed their own eventual collective fate and the earlier doom of those lesser mortals, the (mere) domestic pilots some years before 89 when they opted out of the AFAP to form their own companycentric union.
It's my belief that there were champagne corks a-flyin' that night in every airline boardroom in Australia. As to who was mostly to blame for the QF pilots departure, I have to admit that some of the blame has to be borne by the President of the AFAP at the time, of whom some true believers will hear no bad word said, even before his current medical situation made any criticism even more out of order to some. I'm not one of them - I blame him in part, but I lay the vast majority of the blame at the feet of the QF drivers of the day who considerd themselves too high and mighty to 'waste' their time and subs on the GA and domestic hoi polloi.
It was that industrial separation of QF from the rest of the pilots in Australia that gave Abeles and Strong and Abeles' Silver Bodgie puppet the green light to try a tactic they would never have dared to attempt if they had a single body of pilots representing all Australian commercial pilots to contend with.
Look what you've become - is there any better example than to cite the fact that the ex-president of AIPA has switched to Qandom so he can keep flying after 60? Can we call that an example of "keeping the jobs from the boys"?
As someone has already said, I stand by for the predictable incomings, but may I close by suggesting that 89 is water under the bridge. Anyone still with a glimmer of hope that it's not already too late HAS to put all that behind him and do everything he can to convince the many non-believers among younger pilots that a unified pilot group is the only hope anyone has of a decent future.
End of rant.
It's my belief that there were champagne corks a-flyin' that night in every airline boardroom in Australia. As to who was mostly to blame for the QF pilots departure, I have to admit that some of the blame has to be borne by the President of the AFAP at the time, of whom some true believers will hear no bad word said, even before his current medical situation made any criticism even more out of order to some. I'm not one of them - I blame him in part, but I lay the vast majority of the blame at the feet of the QF drivers of the day who considerd themselves too high and mighty to 'waste' their time and subs on the GA and domestic hoi polloi.
It was that industrial separation of QF from the rest of the pilots in Australia that gave Abeles and Strong and Abeles' Silver Bodgie puppet the green light to try a tactic they would never have dared to attempt if they had a single body of pilots representing all Australian commercial pilots to contend with.
Look what you've become - is there any better example than to cite the fact that the ex-president of AIPA has switched to Qandom so he can keep flying after 60? Can we call that an example of "keeping the jobs from the boys"?
As someone has already said, I stand by for the predictable incomings, but may I close by suggesting that 89 is water under the bridge. Anyone still with a glimmer of hope that it's not already too late HAS to put all that behind him and do everything he can to convince the many non-believers among younger pilots that a unified pilot group is the only hope anyone has of a decent future.
End of rant.
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Borg.
To answer your original question.
On the day the AFAP Victorian members met at a town hall to consider whether or not to give the Executive the power to act as they saw fit in the then festering dispute, the President of AIPA stood up and addressed the meeting. A similar address was probably made at other meetings. I don't know.
His comments were along the line of, we don't agree with the action you wish to take. We would do it differently. But we will support you, if necessary, by not flying over your routes. There were a couple of hundred witnesses there that day in the audience.
What happened after the merde hit the fan was that this promise was disregarded. They happily flew over the routes as did a lot of others.
No doubt the AFAP members of the day were mightily p*ssed off with their lieing AIPA counterpart.
Maybe they believed the promise, Borg. But then you don't live your life by believing promises. You play the cards you are dealt or get out of the game.
To answer your original question.
On the day the AFAP Victorian members met at a town hall to consider whether or not to give the Executive the power to act as they saw fit in the then festering dispute, the President of AIPA stood up and addressed the meeting. A similar address was probably made at other meetings. I don't know.
His comments were along the line of, we don't agree with the action you wish to take. We would do it differently. But we will support you, if necessary, by not flying over your routes. There were a couple of hundred witnesses there that day in the audience.
What happened after the merde hit the fan was that this promise was disregarded. They happily flew over the routes as did a lot of others.
No doubt the AFAP members of the day were mightily p*ssed off with their lieing AIPA counterpart.
Maybe they believed the promise, Borg. But then you don't live your life by believing promises. You play the cards you are dealt or get out of the game.
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My goodness gracious me!!!
Rational and measured discussion on '89.
I am pleased and impressed.
Go for it guys and girls, at this intelligent level.
There is a lot that needs to be aired for it to either go away or be rationalised, and this is exactly the way to do it.
Best all
EWL
Rational and measured discussion on '89.
I am pleased and impressed.
Go for it guys and girls, at this intelligent level.
There is a lot that needs to be aired for it to either go away or be rationalised, and this is exactly the way to do it.
Best all
EWL
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It's my belief that there were champagne corks a-flyin' (the day the QF pilots left the AFAP to form AIPA) in every airline boardroom in Australia.
It's time we all showed the brains to start undoing the damage done by the QF mainline pilots of that time and got together again - all of us - without any stupid "my dick's bigger than yours is 'cause I was accepted by QF mainline and you weren't" bullsh-one-t clouding the issue.
I don't care what acronym you want to use, but it's time we all formed a single, cohesive union of ALL commercial pilots within Australia.
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I often wonder how differently things may have turned out had we resources such as the Internet available at such turning points as 1989.
King oath...
The then president of AIPA. ... hmmmmm.
Speaking as a humble troop at the time, I can say that I have no recollection of that promise being communicated to the AIPA membership. If you controlled the AIPA newsletter in those days you controlled AIPA, something the present leadership is having to come to grips with in regard to the internet. But it wouldn't surprise me one iota if it panned out exactly as you say. His swift absorption into management after the dispute and his actions since, speak for themselves. I would hate to be in charge of his farewell function from QF as phone booths are difficult to book and probably wouldn't be filled anyway.
What I can say is that I also have no recollection of carrying domestic passengers on flights such as the extension of the QF1 through SYD to MEL. I am not naive enough to believe it didn't occur, but I remember flying a lot of half empty aeroplanes around.
You guys have got to remember that the QF of 89 bears very little resemblance to today's model. We had 9 767's fully employed on International duty and around 28 classic 747's also similiarly employed. There was no mass domestic redeployment but international extension legs were flown. Not a lot of them, but definitely flown. That is how I recall it anyway but would stand to be corrected.
As far as the decision to leave AFAP in 82 is concerned, only about 8% of the current pilot list were around then and the architect is long dead. It happened, in hindsight it can be argued that it was a retrograde step, but we are talking 23 years ago.
It saddens me to know that QF pilots who were largely ignorant of the events you mention are being held to blame by people affected. Two thirds of the pilot list have joined SINCE 1989. It's probably not fair but I can see your point of view.
regards TCOB
King oath...
The then president of AIPA. ... hmmmmm.
Speaking as a humble troop at the time, I can say that I have no recollection of that promise being communicated to the AIPA membership. If you controlled the AIPA newsletter in those days you controlled AIPA, something the present leadership is having to come to grips with in regard to the internet. But it wouldn't surprise me one iota if it panned out exactly as you say. His swift absorption into management after the dispute and his actions since, speak for themselves. I would hate to be in charge of his farewell function from QF as phone booths are difficult to book and probably wouldn't be filled anyway.
What I can say is that I also have no recollection of carrying domestic passengers on flights such as the extension of the QF1 through SYD to MEL. I am not naive enough to believe it didn't occur, but I remember flying a lot of half empty aeroplanes around.
You guys have got to remember that the QF of 89 bears very little resemblance to today's model. We had 9 767's fully employed on International duty and around 28 classic 747's also similiarly employed. There was no mass domestic redeployment but international extension legs were flown. Not a lot of them, but definitely flown. That is how I recall it anyway but would stand to be corrected.
As far as the decision to leave AFAP in 82 is concerned, only about 8% of the current pilot list were around then and the architect is long dead. It happened, in hindsight it can be argued that it was a retrograde step, but we are talking 23 years ago.
It saddens me to know that QF pilots who were largely ignorant of the events you mention are being held to blame by people affected. Two thirds of the pilot list have joined SINCE 1989. It's probably not fair but I can see your point of view.
regards TCOB
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Borg
QF 747-200s were used into HBA ex SYD to try and clear the backlog. Some excellent footage hiding somewhere in Channel 6 vaults of the first 747 arrival.
This was obviosly with uncommitted capacity, and with called in crews but it did certainly assist in clearing the backlog and kep a few tourists dribbling in.
Royal Brunei, Monarch and Air 2000 also had some interesting equipment deployed here that serviced Tasmania.
Best all
EWL
QF 747-200s were used into HBA ex SYD to try and clear the backlog. Some excellent footage hiding somewhere in Channel 6 vaults of the first 747 arrival.
This was obviosly with uncommitted capacity, and with called in crews but it did certainly assist in clearing the backlog and kep a few tourists dribbling in.
Royal Brunei, Monarch and Air 2000 also had some interesting equipment deployed here that serviced Tasmania.
Best all
EWL
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As far as the decision to leave AFAP in 82 is concerned, only about 8% of the current pilot list were around then and the architect is long dead. It happened, in hindsight it can be argued that it was a retrograde step, but we are talking 23 years ago.
In the short term, it doesn't matter one iota if pilots in one company are flying similar equipment for different pay and conditions. They can still be represented by one unified association if there's a will by the majority to have a unified association.
The important thing is to look to the future and do something to stop the rot that has so well and truly set in for everyone, (if to differing degrees), since 1989.
I think the biggest job will be convincing a large slab of the younger pilots that a union has a place in their lives. Too many of them don't understand that in large part, the only reason the job came to be something to aspire to was the hard slog put in by Dick Holt and the post WW2 generation of pilots to make the job into something worthwhile.
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Spad, you had a shot at me regarding my high opinions of the ex Ansett pilots that now work in the QF group. How about you move on and lose the hatred and accept those guys on their own merit? In one post your having ago at me about the way I sing the praises of the ex AN guys, then in the above your saying the "heros" should be forgiven.
We are all tired of the 89 attitude, build a bridge and get over it. The world is changing, I'm sorry, the values of post WW2 are great and worth respecting, and I certainly have no disrespect for that but it's a different world now.
We are all tired of the 89 attitude, build a bridge and get over it. The world is changing, I'm sorry, the values of post WW2 are great and worth respecting, and I certainly have no disrespect for that but it's a different world now.
Last edited by Pete Conrad; 26th Feb 2005 at 10:54.
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Anyone who thinks we pilots have any hope of pulling something - anything - half way constructive off has only to read the last post.
Pete asks Spad to "move on". Errr.. isn't that exactly Spad is suggesting we all do????
Pete asks Spad to "move on". Errr.. isn't that exactly Spad is suggesting we all do????
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DONG! End of Round 2, back to your corners and prepare for a seventy five rounder.
It's the last three posts, couched in the new age gritted-teeth politeness as they are, that demonstrate the impossibility of a mutually-agreed ceasefire in the foreseeable future. EWL, you are wrong, there is no intelligent debate because there is no give and take possible.
We civilised westerners laugh mockingly at the religiously-inspired disasters of the Middle East, Ireland and the Baltic states; why on earth don't they get over it and see reason like us educated secular nations? Yet this single never-ending industrial dispute bears exactly the same hallmarks of the fatwas.
Think about it people, and tell me if I'm wrong. Tell me if you really believe that passing on your hatreds and bitterness to the next generation to ensure that your legacy is remembered is actually the best thing for that generation, namely, your kids.
Yeah, I thought that would be the case. Keep on arguing, guys and girls
It's the last three posts, couched in the new age gritted-teeth politeness as they are, that demonstrate the impossibility of a mutually-agreed ceasefire in the foreseeable future. EWL, you are wrong, there is no intelligent debate because there is no give and take possible.
We civilised westerners laugh mockingly at the religiously-inspired disasters of the Middle East, Ireland and the Baltic states; why on earth don't they get over it and see reason like us educated secular nations? Yet this single never-ending industrial dispute bears exactly the same hallmarks of the fatwas.
Think about it people, and tell me if I'm wrong. Tell me if you really believe that passing on your hatreds and bitterness to the next generation to ensure that your legacy is remembered is actually the best thing for that generation, namely, your kids.
Yeah, I thought that would be the case. Keep on arguing, guys and girls