NJS Preferred Bidder
Join Date: Feb 2005
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It's all very well for those overseas to look down on 'The Great Southern Land' and pass criticism, but times have changed. In this case the NJS Pilot Group co-operated with management to produce a deal to secure the contract. The pilots who transfer from the 146 to the 717 will receive bonuses further down the track to help compensate for the initial costs. To be called losers and tossers beggars belief considering that we've saved our own jobs. Get over it.
Nunc est bibendum
This drives me nuts. Once again we turn on each other, rip into our own and generally crap on each other when we've actually missed the bloody point entirely.
Someone earlier in this thread mentioned that QF had a gun to both sides heads. If this doesn't tell us something then what ever will. The ONLY way we'll ever get ahead in the Aussie part of this industry is if we STAND TOGETHER. We need ONE pilots association covering ALL the segments of the group. That we we stop trying knife each other in the sides and ensure that we can all have the job security we desire. It IS possible.
This constant dog eat dog, you guys suck; well what could we do crap has got to stop. We need to unite and put a common front towards the powers that be. When they stick a gun to two peoples heads, we roll over. What we need to do is to take the 'second person' out of play and so when anyone puts a .44 to one head, we reply with the five or six .22s from a united pilot group. Either way it's a stalemate!
Anyway, the real enemy is NOT each other but gee Geoff Dixon must just LOVE the way we eat our own and don't turn our attention to him!
Glad the NJS guys and gals have secure jobs. Want to protect your conditions in the future? Start making enquiries with AIPA now. It's in ALL of our long term interests.
Someone earlier in this thread mentioned that QF had a gun to both sides heads. If this doesn't tell us something then what ever will. The ONLY way we'll ever get ahead in the Aussie part of this industry is if we STAND TOGETHER. We need ONE pilots association covering ALL the segments of the group. That we we stop trying knife each other in the sides and ensure that we can all have the job security we desire. It IS possible.
This constant dog eat dog, you guys suck; well what could we do crap has got to stop. We need to unite and put a common front towards the powers that be. When they stick a gun to two peoples heads, we roll over. What we need to do is to take the 'second person' out of play and so when anyone puts a .44 to one head, we reply with the five or six .22s from a united pilot group. Either way it's a stalemate!
Anyway, the real enemy is NOT each other but gee Geoff Dixon must just LOVE the way we eat our own and don't turn our attention to him!
Glad the NJS guys and gals have secure jobs. Want to protect your conditions in the future? Start making enquiries with AIPA now. It's in ALL of our long term interests.
Join Date: Nov 2003
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I am relieved the NJS crew were able to win the 717 contract and keep thier jobs.
I am saddenned that QF once more felt the need to force and then accept an offer which is to the general detriment of pilot wages across the board.
I am hopeful that if solidarity amongst pilots is only good in theory, then at least we can all try to find a way to serve ourselves in the future which doesn't at the same time disadvantage our colleagues.
I am absolutely DISGUSTED at the temerity shown by the short sighted, narrow-minded hot-heads on this forum who display the arrogance which itself demeans the profession more than any pay cut could.
Just remember two things;
1) Pilots fly the planes. As employees we cannot and do not dictate terms of employment. At best we can attempt to influence them, at worst we just have to accept them.
2) If you were in the same place you'd do the same thing.
I pity the future of Australian aviation not because of the hapless choice (a choice between a job and unemployment is an unlucky one) of a group of harassed airline pilots, but because of the abhorrent and reprehensible attitude, actions and words of people who harp on about "professionalism" in one sentence and slander colleagues in the next.
Good luck to the NJS crew.
I am saddenned that QF once more felt the need to force and then accept an offer which is to the general detriment of pilot wages across the board.
I am hopeful that if solidarity amongst pilots is only good in theory, then at least we can all try to find a way to serve ourselves in the future which doesn't at the same time disadvantage our colleagues.
I am absolutely DISGUSTED at the temerity shown by the short sighted, narrow-minded hot-heads on this forum who display the arrogance which itself demeans the profession more than any pay cut could.
Just remember two things;
1) Pilots fly the planes. As employees we cannot and do not dictate terms of employment. At best we can attempt to influence them, at worst we just have to accept them.
2) If you were in the same place you'd do the same thing.
I pity the future of Australian aviation not because of the hapless choice (a choice between a job and unemployment is an unlucky one) of a group of harassed airline pilots, but because of the abhorrent and reprehensible attitude, actions and words of people who harp on about "professionalism" in one sentence and slander colleagues in the next.
Good luck to the NJS crew.
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Keg is right on the money. Time to grow up girls!!
To the NJS people, you will love this airplane!! I for one will sorely miss the 717 when it’s my turn for the 320. Good luck people and l look forward to flying with you during the transition period.
To the NJS people, you will love this airplane!! I for one will sorely miss the 717 when it’s my turn for the 320. Good luck people and l look forward to flying with you during the transition period.
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Keg
I agree with you 100% However it is YOUR union that dropped the ball ALONG time ago. Why wasn't the impulse group accepted into the AIPA when they had the opportunity?? It is no good for QF mainline pilots to winge when YOUR union had the opportunity to fix the situation that you now lament.
If Impluse pilots had been in the AIPA then the slide would not have occured and aviation would be an industry worth staying in. What were you guys thinking at the time??!!! Blind freddie could see what was going on, but you guys alienated the Impulse pilot group and it came to bite you VERY VERY HARD. Even more so if QF start buying more Airbus.
Anyway airline flying is now racing toward GA. What's going to be next?? Paying for recurrency training?? Airlines only get away with what their unions allow them to. About time some of the pilot groups in this country pulled thier finger out and start standing up for the people they represent.
NJS did what they had to do and I would have done the same thing however it should have never gotten to that point.
A question for NJS guys, what would happen if you as a NJS employee said that you couldn't afford the 717 rating what would happen then?? Could they fire you for not paying for training given you are already employed?? I can't imagine ALL of the pilots have the $$ for this type of thing.
I agree with you 100% However it is YOUR union that dropped the ball ALONG time ago. Why wasn't the impulse group accepted into the AIPA when they had the opportunity?? It is no good for QF mainline pilots to winge when YOUR union had the opportunity to fix the situation that you now lament.
If Impluse pilots had been in the AIPA then the slide would not have occured and aviation would be an industry worth staying in. What were you guys thinking at the time??!!! Blind freddie could see what was going on, but you guys alienated the Impulse pilot group and it came to bite you VERY VERY HARD. Even more so if QF start buying more Airbus.
Anyway airline flying is now racing toward GA. What's going to be next?? Paying for recurrency training?? Airlines only get away with what their unions allow them to. About time some of the pilot groups in this country pulled thier finger out and start standing up for the people they represent.
NJS did what they had to do and I would have done the same thing however it should have never gotten to that point.
A question for NJS guys, what would happen if you as a NJS employee said that you couldn't afford the 717 rating what would happen then?? Could they fire you for not paying for training given you are already employed?? I can't imagine ALL of the pilots have the $$ for this type of thing.
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Good question Scuddy. I still reckon you National Jerk lot are tossers. Do you really think Jetstar would employ you in the same company as their mainline pilots? Wouldn't it be a seperate company to keep things apart? And where do you think Jetstar would have gotten enough experienced jet drivers from? You lot of course! Ya boofheads. Let's also not forget one thing. Employment is no longer guaranteed these days anywhere. (Just ask the Ansett dudes).
Nunc est bibendum
Yes, yes, yes. We stuffed it scud. It was a mistake and I curse myself on a weekly or fortnightly basis for not bleating more about it at the time. I actually put forward that very proposition to the then AIPA pres to be told 'no, we don't want to do that'. I wasn't convinced then and I'm damned sure now I was right.
That said, I can lament that forever or take pro-active steps NOW to ensure that we ALL are more secure. The only means of doing that is ensuring that we remove the 'other' player from the table and there is ONE pilots association to deal with. It may represent five different awards and so on but it does require some unity and desire to get the best for ALL of us.
Mistakes have been made. I hope we don't make them of the same size again. We can learn and move on and try and ensure it doesn't occur again or we can keep saying 'woe is me' as we race to the bottom. I know which one I'm doing!
That said, I can lament that forever or take pro-active steps NOW to ensure that we ALL are more secure. The only means of doing that is ensuring that we remove the 'other' player from the table and there is ONE pilots association to deal with. It may represent five different awards and so on but it does require some unity and desire to get the best for ALL of us.
Mistakes have been made. I hope we don't make them of the same size again. We can learn and move on and try and ensure it doesn't occur again or we can keep saying 'woe is me' as we race to the bottom. I know which one I'm doing!
Bottums Up
Yes Enema, we could have applied to Jetstar, then
just in the hope of gaining a job on the bottom of their list, just to keep you happy.
OR we could have meaningful negotiations with our employer to put the best offer in to secure our positions.
What I've done has cost me far less than your suggested path, which I note costs you nothing.
I agree wholeheartedly with Keg, unity is what's needed. But judging by the posts like yours, where all that is offered is derogatory name calling, unity is a long, long, long way off into the future!
- Paid to go to an interview $1k return.
- Paid to do the sim $0.5K
- Paid for medical $0.15K
- Paid for phsyc testing $0.2K
just in the hope of gaining a job on the bottom of their list, just to keep you happy.
OR we could have meaningful negotiations with our employer to put the best offer in to secure our positions.
What I've done has cost me far less than your suggested path, which I note costs you nothing.
I agree wholeheartedly with Keg, unity is what's needed. But judging by the posts like yours, where all that is offered is derogatory name calling, unity is a long, long, long way off into the future!
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We talk about unity. We had it once. The AFAP covered all airline pilots in Australia as well as GA. In their wisdom the Qantas pilots bailed out thinking they could do better on their own.
Now we are where we are. Pilots in this country have shown time and time again they are incapable of unity. Look at 89 for the amount of unity shown there...and that was supposed to be pretty good as far as disputes go. To beat this we will need just about 100% unity. Never going to happen imo. Management have capitalised on this and will continue to do so.
As for the NJS guys I say good on you. No one would have given a tinkers cuss if you had all got the boot. You had no choice really.
If Jetstar had got the nod not all of you would have got a job there anyway , you can bank on that. This way at least everyone gets to eat a bit longer till the next attack from our management mates.
I've harped on in plenty of old threads about AIPA's gross negligence rejecting the IPG. They just didn't want to associate with lowly Impulse pilots. Nothing in it for AIPA!
While I think of it what happened to the "line in the sand" AIPA touted at the Brighton RSL before the LCC was set up. Must have been drawn in lemon juice.
Now we are where we are. Pilots in this country have shown time and time again they are incapable of unity. Look at 89 for the amount of unity shown there...and that was supposed to be pretty good as far as disputes go. To beat this we will need just about 100% unity. Never going to happen imo. Management have capitalised on this and will continue to do so.
As for the NJS guys I say good on you. No one would have given a tinkers cuss if you had all got the boot. You had no choice really.
If Jetstar had got the nod not all of you would have got a job there anyway , you can bank on that. This way at least everyone gets to eat a bit longer till the next attack from our management mates.
I've harped on in plenty of old threads about AIPA's gross negligence rejecting the IPG. They just didn't want to associate with lowly Impulse pilots. Nothing in it for AIPA!
While I think of it what happened to the "line in the sand" AIPA touted at the Brighton RSL before the LCC was set up. Must have been drawn in lemon juice.
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Oh dear, on that other site, an 89 returnee, for want of a more descriptive adjective has recently made the astounding comment that "divided we beg".
Well..... this is good news, a born again union man preaching the benefits of unity, one for all and all for one, uphold the cause and all that.
Oh, the irony of it all.
Well..... this is good news, a born again union man preaching the benefits of unity, one for all and all for one, uphold the cause and all that.
Oh, the irony of it all.
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Normasar to quote you "You don't know my background so don't sit there and tell me how to suck eggs you plonker!!!!!!!!!!"
Tell me, what do you know of me or any other person who works at NJS? You are the first to beat your chest on pprune espousing a line of thought borne of ignorance and dumb arrogance, and yet you howl like a mongrel dog when taken to task over your post.
The NJS pilot group negotiated a position resulting in a $0 nett loss at the end of a finite period of time. In the mean time, our wives/husbands and children have a secure future. Do you have a family to think about when you are "barking like a junk yard dog"? If you do how far are you prepared to risk their future?
If you would like to set an example for us all to follow, please be kind enough to tell us what struggle you have experienced, what negotiations you have been a part of, or what strike action you have endured in order to secure your current pay and conditions. Or have you just happened to have the luxury of being able to walk into an employment position with the current pay and conditions already in place, and then screech at us in a shrill and trite voice as if you were a baboon in a tree?
1989, ring any bells? Rightly or wrongly this dispute deteriorated into ruined lives and misery for thousands, (and no, I was working overseas), less belligerence from the likes of you and more negotiating may well have resulted in a completely different set of outcomes, who knows, but I for one was not prepared to take that risk.
Actually, I had a laugh when reading your post. Have you ever seen Michael Moores "Fahrenheit 9/11". You remind me of all those American senators interviewed by Moore, who were all rabid supporters of the Iraq war but never had the guts to enlist in previous conflicts or to send their own sons and daughters to Iraq. Criticism from you and your type I wear loudly and proudly as a badge of honour!!
Please don't forget to let us know what your contribution to the Australian pilot workforce pay and conditions has been.
A final thought, have you ever heard the cliche that "EMPTY VESSELS MAKE THE MOST NOISE"?
Tell me, what do you know of me or any other person who works at NJS? You are the first to beat your chest on pprune espousing a line of thought borne of ignorance and dumb arrogance, and yet you howl like a mongrel dog when taken to task over your post.
The NJS pilot group negotiated a position resulting in a $0 nett loss at the end of a finite period of time. In the mean time, our wives/husbands and children have a secure future. Do you have a family to think about when you are "barking like a junk yard dog"? If you do how far are you prepared to risk their future?
If you would like to set an example for us all to follow, please be kind enough to tell us what struggle you have experienced, what negotiations you have been a part of, or what strike action you have endured in order to secure your current pay and conditions. Or have you just happened to have the luxury of being able to walk into an employment position with the current pay and conditions already in place, and then screech at us in a shrill and trite voice as if you were a baboon in a tree?
1989, ring any bells? Rightly or wrongly this dispute deteriorated into ruined lives and misery for thousands, (and no, I was working overseas), less belligerence from the likes of you and more negotiating may well have resulted in a completely different set of outcomes, who knows, but I for one was not prepared to take that risk.
Actually, I had a laugh when reading your post. Have you ever seen Michael Moores "Fahrenheit 9/11". You remind me of all those American senators interviewed by Moore, who were all rabid supporters of the Iraq war but never had the guts to enlist in previous conflicts or to send their own sons and daughters to Iraq. Criticism from you and your type I wear loudly and proudly as a badge of honour!!
Please don't forget to let us know what your contribution to the Australian pilot workforce pay and conditions has been.
A final thought, have you ever heard the cliche that "EMPTY VESSELS MAKE THE MOST NOISE"?
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F/O Bloggs for your info mate I am with the White Rat if that has got anything to do with it. Everyone here didn't get my point EXCEPT Keg. Did I not say that its about time everyone stood together with a collective voice and said enough's enough. I could have sworn that is what I said previously obviously I write in chinese and nobody here can read that !!!!!!!!!!
Clarrie I know you and I wouldn't have expected such a reply as I suspect you know me having previously worked with you at NJS. As for all you other knockers PLEASE enlighten us all as to your extensive experience or LACK thereof. And by the way I was not involved in 89
Clarrie I know you and I wouldn't have expected such a reply as I suspect you know me having previously worked with you at NJS. As for all you other knockers PLEASE enlighten us all as to your extensive experience or LACK thereof. And by the way I was not involved in 89
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Normasars
You say you know me and I know you. I don't however know who Normasars is. It makes no difference. I believe that when one resorts to calling people names, like "plonker" and "silly little fool", one is really showing that one's argument holds little water.
You may well believe that we at NJS have made a bad decision, and that is your right. Why not argue the point, rather than denigrate those who have had to make the real world decision, unlike you who haven't?
If you were still flying with me @ NJS, with (I assume) a family to support (pehaps a wife unhappy with constant insecurity in aviation), and were faced with the prospect of retrenchment or downgrade, and potentially severe financial impost, can you really say that you'd stand on the principal you espouse, in the sure knowledge that most wouldn't stand with you and many would be clambering for your position beore you'd even left it?
You say you know me and I know you. I don't however know who Normasars is. It makes no difference. I believe that when one resorts to calling people names, like "plonker" and "silly little fool", one is really showing that one's argument holds little water.
You may well believe that we at NJS have made a bad decision, and that is your right. Why not argue the point, rather than denigrate those who have had to make the real world decision, unlike you who haven't?
If you were still flying with me @ NJS, with (I assume) a family to support (pehaps a wife unhappy with constant insecurity in aviation), and were faced with the prospect of retrenchment or downgrade, and potentially severe financial impost, can you really say that you'd stand on the principal you espouse, in the sure knowledge that most wouldn't stand with you and many would be clambering for your position beore you'd even left it?
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Normasars, again I shall quote you,
1. "PureRisk, I couldn't agree with you more. See my post on B717 endorsement. Just another gutless display on behalf of PROFESSIONAL pilots in this country. What a disgrace!!!!!!"
and then;
2. "Did I not say that its about time everyone stood together with a collective voice and said enough's enough. I could have sworn that is what I said previously obviously I write in chinese and nobody here can read that !!!!!!!!!!"
and now I ask you once again;
If you would like to set an example for us all to follow, please be kind enough to tell us (a) what struggle to secure your current pay and conditions you have experienced, (b) what negotiations you have been a part of, or (c) what strike action you have endured in order to secure your current pay and conditions, and (d) do you have a family whose happiness and security you are prepared to risk by "going to war" with your employer
As you refuse to answer these questions and we now know that you work for Q, it is obvious that you have had the luxury of being able to walk into an employment position with the current pay and conditions already in place, with no input, risk or negotiation from yourself. All of the work was done prior to your arrival. You then screech at us in a shrill and trite voice as if you were a baboon in a tree?
What you have succeeded in doing is proving yourself to be a person who lacks candor and credibility. A person who takes a position of critisism and ridicule of others while having not an ounce of substance himself. How easy it is to "hide out in the tree tops and shout out rude names" * at the passers by.
Yes mate, a very "empty vessel" you are.
* (apologies to Peter Gabriel)
1. "PureRisk, I couldn't agree with you more. See my post on B717 endorsement. Just another gutless display on behalf of PROFESSIONAL pilots in this country. What a disgrace!!!!!!"
and then;
2. "Did I not say that its about time everyone stood together with a collective voice and said enough's enough. I could have sworn that is what I said previously obviously I write in chinese and nobody here can read that !!!!!!!!!!"
and now I ask you once again;
If you would like to set an example for us all to follow, please be kind enough to tell us (a) what struggle to secure your current pay and conditions you have experienced, (b) what negotiations you have been a part of, or (c) what strike action you have endured in order to secure your current pay and conditions, and (d) do you have a family whose happiness and security you are prepared to risk by "going to war" with your employer
As you refuse to answer these questions and we now know that you work for Q, it is obvious that you have had the luxury of being able to walk into an employment position with the current pay and conditions already in place, with no input, risk or negotiation from yourself. All of the work was done prior to your arrival. You then screech at us in a shrill and trite voice as if you were a baboon in a tree?
What you have succeeded in doing is proving yourself to be a person who lacks candor and credibility. A person who takes a position of critisism and ridicule of others while having not an ounce of substance himself. How easy it is to "hide out in the tree tops and shout out rude names" * at the passers by.
Yes mate, a very "empty vessel" you are.
* (apologies to Peter Gabriel)
Gentlemen. Could I make one comment please?
It is all very well to criticise someone for apparently putting the skids under your wages and conditions, but what would you do if it was YOUR job on the line?
Would you and your mates stand shoulder to shoulder and call the employers bluff? Would you be confident that the rest of the pilots in this country would support you and your family if you were sacked? Would you be confident that every other professional airline pilot in the entire country would go out and stay out, shutting down QF VB J*, and everything else, until you were reinstated?
I respectfully suggest that unless the answer is a resounding "Yes" you have no right to criticise NJS people.
It is all very well to criticise someone for apparently putting the skids under your wages and conditions, but what would you do if it was YOUR job on the line?
Would you and your mates stand shoulder to shoulder and call the employers bluff? Would you be confident that the rest of the pilots in this country would support you and your family if you were sacked? Would you be confident that every other professional airline pilot in the entire country would go out and stay out, shutting down QF VB J*, and everything else, until you were reinstated?
I respectfully suggest that unless the answer is a resounding "Yes" you have no right to criticise NJS people.
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Scramjet, once again you jump to conclusions mate. I said I work for the rat, read into that what you like but I can assure you , you are barking up the wrong tree. The reason I say this is that you obviously have an affiliation with primates as everyone of your posts refers to baboons hiding out in trees. FYI I have been shafted well and truly by Q along with hundreds of other former employees in a once very proud and profitable regional airline that as of 2002 is now just a very sad memory.So please once again do me a favour and keep your 10 cents worth of abuse to yourself. I know all too well what its like to be screwed over. Try telling your family( with a wife at work and kids in school) that in 2 weeks time the operation is shifting to CB and then within 12 months of that announcement the whole thing is no more.
Unlike you mate I can well and truly speak from experience, nuff said!!!!!!!!
Unlike you mate I can well and truly speak from experience, nuff said!!!!!!!!
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Normasars, If you have been a victim of base closures and short notice redundancies, why do you then refer to the actions of those of us still at NJS as;
"Just another gutless display on behalf of PROFESSIONAL pilots in this country. What a disgrace!!!!!!"
I would have thought that under your particular circumstances you would understand the need for people to try to cement a secure future, even if that does require some compromise.
If you are angry and "pissed off" with the way things have become in aviation thats fine, but don't hurl abuse at those of us who are trying to secure some kind of long term future in our home towns.
I am truely sorry that you have been made redundent and I hope for your sake that you have found suitable long term employment elsewhere, however lets us get along with trying to ensure our own futures without retribution.
P.S Normasars, Yes, some would say that I do have an affiliation with primates. Wadya reckon Bloggs?
"Just another gutless display on behalf of PROFESSIONAL pilots in this country. What a disgrace!!!!!!"
I would have thought that under your particular circumstances you would understand the need for people to try to cement a secure future, even if that does require some compromise.
If you are angry and "pissed off" with the way things have become in aviation thats fine, but don't hurl abuse at those of us who are trying to secure some kind of long term future in our home towns.
I am truely sorry that you have been made redundent and I hope for your sake that you have found suitable long term employment elsewhere, however lets us get along with trying to ensure our own futures without retribution.
P.S Normasars, Yes, some would say that I do have an affiliation with primates. Wadya reckon Bloggs?