SQ on the pacific - Ironic ?
Thread Starter
SQ on the pacific - Ironic ?
A thought, (No bagging please I'm over the AN thing)
With the mastermind John Anderson pre-empting on the 7:30 report the granting of pacific acess to 3rd party airlines (namely SQ initially) am I the only one who feels the irony. Had the Govt not blocked the AN sale to SQ (when it remained the only real alternative for the survival of the airline) at least the aircraft plying these routes would be providing jobs and opportunity for Australians. You can only assume the majority of profits would have been re-invested in the airline (god knows it needed it ) again a win for the nation as a whole.
Surely a better outcome than what we are faced with now. ALL the profits now off-shore to Singapore/Dubai and god only knows where else.
I obviously don't see the big picture.
Regards to all,
Oz2
With the mastermind John Anderson pre-empting on the 7:30 report the granting of pacific acess to 3rd party airlines (namely SQ initially) am I the only one who feels the irony. Had the Govt not blocked the AN sale to SQ (when it remained the only real alternative for the survival of the airline) at least the aircraft plying these routes would be providing jobs and opportunity for Australians. You can only assume the majority of profits would have been re-invested in the airline (god knows it needed it ) again a win for the nation as a whole.
Surely a better outcome than what we are faced with now. ALL the profits now off-shore to Singapore/Dubai and god only knows where else.
I obviously don't see the big picture.
Regards to all,
Oz2
There is no big picture. Only lots of small pictures put closely next to one another to look like a big picture. (See the opening credits of Parkinson).
Governments are there to look after the BIG PICTURE but with pearls like this from the Minister for Transport...
what can you expect. He needs to get his directorships all lined up before retiring from parliament, at which time he will be thanked and congratulated for his efforts on behalf of Australians.
FACT: There is no such thing as a level playing field. Each state has geographical, social, cultural etc advantages over other states. SQ has done well by being where it is. Along the Kangaroo route, where aircraft MUST stop to refuel. (It certainly is not because people are falling over themselves to visit Singapore.)Those days are ending. Emirates now enjoys the "best" geographical position for the Kangaroo route due to new equipment. SQ know they have to find other profit centres.
Governments are there to look after the BIG PICTURE but with pearls like this from the Minister for Transport...
JOHN ANDERSON: Some jobs overseas, I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, if they're employed by an Australian company overseas.
FACT: There is no such thing as a level playing field. Each state has geographical, social, cultural etc advantages over other states. SQ has done well by being where it is. Along the Kangaroo route, where aircraft MUST stop to refuel. (It certainly is not because people are falling over themselves to visit Singapore.)Those days are ending. Emirates now enjoys the "best" geographical position for the Kangaroo route due to new equipment. SQ know they have to find other profit centres.
Rebel PPRuNer
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Toronto, Canada (formerly EICK)
Age: 51
Posts: 2,834
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Has QF considered the possibility of routing SYD flights via MNL and asking the Philippines for pickup rights? No direct service to Manila from London at the moment, it's about the same distance from SYD as SIN and it looks close enough to the great circle route (although that takes no account of jetstreams)?
Could they then tell Singapore Govt not to bother about more routes and send extra flights via MNL and route extra MEL flights through the existing SIN slots?
Am not familiar with the various bilaterals so may not be a runner, but with VS routing through HKG I thought it might not be entirely mad.
Could they then tell Singapore Govt not to bother about more routes and send extra flights via MNL and route extra MEL flights through the existing SIN slots?
Am not familiar with the various bilaterals so may not be a runner, but with VS routing through HKG I thought it might not be entirely mad.
Nunc est bibendum
I reckon that SQ is pushing hard for SYD-LAX because they can see a time in a few years when they'll miss out completely on the Australia-London, Australia-Frankfurt, Australia-wherever traffic that QF ends up doing direct. With more aircraft arriving on the scene that fly further for less, we're not more than a decade or so away from direct london services on a regular basis. THAT would take away a lot of the reason (not all of course) for SQs success in the OZ market.
I just reckon they're taking a 'long view' on this and it is more than just about competition on the pacific.
I just reckon they're taking a 'long view' on this and it is more than just about competition on the pacific.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Melbourne Aus
Posts: 156
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Picture this scenario............
The Australian government does not give rights to Singapore to operate from SYD-LAX.
Lots of lobbying takes place and the foreign ownership cap of Qantas is removed thus allowing Singapore to buy a share in QF.
They're happy, the QF board tout themselves as business masters and the government come across to the general (not discerning) public as having masterminded this incredible deal!!
Everyones a winner...................not!!
The Australian government does not give rights to Singapore to operate from SYD-LAX.
Lots of lobbying takes place and the foreign ownership cap of Qantas is removed thus allowing Singapore to buy a share in QF.
They're happy, the QF board tout themselves as business masters and the government come across to the general (not discerning) public as having masterminded this incredible deal!!
Everyones a winner...................not!!
Nunc est bibendum
Zapatas, they possibly could but currently a lot of the 'through' traffic from Australia to Europe occures because SQ has more 'direct' flights to other than LHR and FRA. This allows them to also have pretty cheap airfares going one stop to LHR. If you take that direct london traffic and direct FRA traffic out of the mix, you may not be quite so viable with what is left going via SIN. The numbers don't crunch out quite so well then.
That said, I thought SQ's current rights were to fly to/from Australia to Singapore and not direct to 'third' destinations. Hence why they are keen to pick up LAX. If they wanted to go direct, from my understanding of the issue they'd have to negotiate a whole new set of agreements. Happy for someone to tell me to the contrary.
Emirates may face similar issues in the longer term as well.
(Previous comment should have said 'access', not 'success' although it mostly works both ways anyway!
)
That said, I thought SQ's current rights were to fly to/from Australia to Singapore and not direct to 'third' destinations. Hence why they are keen to pick up LAX. If they wanted to go direct, from my understanding of the issue they'd have to negotiate a whole new set of agreements. Happy for someone to tell me to the contrary.
Emirates may face similar issues in the longer term as well.
(Previous comment should have said 'access', not 'success' although it mostly works both ways anyway!
)
Grandpa Aerotart
There is simply nothing Singapore has to offer that QF could possibly want or need.
Singapore is about to pass it's zenith as a world hub....it's been obvious for some years that this would eventually happen as aircraft came on line with seriously long range potential...the writing was on the wall when the 744 hit the skies....that's not to say it won't remain a regional hub but the asian countries which surround fortress singapura aren't populated with big spenders who will slip a day in Singapore and do a tour or some serious shopping...lots of Indonesians etc on there way to and from labouring jobs...amahs etc.
I quite like Singapore...based there for two years...but it's not a place that will attract tourists because there is nothing there worth seeing...it's a shopping center.
Why wouldn't QF, via it's tame minister, tell SQ to go forth and multiply and simply send the A380s either direct to LHR/FRA/CDG/LAX/SFO/DFW or wherever and send the 744s via DXB or HKG and then up through China and Russia on the great circle route?
I am not particularly pro QF or anti QF....can't say I agree with Dixon's methods...but that applies equally to the great majority of CEOs working for publicly listed companies...or should I say working for institutional investers/speculators.
The fact is SQ have nothing to bargain with...they might be applying a little pressure at the moment via Jetstar Asia but I'd bet if they promised to let up in exchange for 5th freedom rights ex Oz to the US west coast they squash Jetstar Asia like a bug as soon as they got what they wanted signed sealed and delivered....that's the way the 'master race' in Singapore do business.
The military, or more accurately the ex military old boys club runs most things, like SQ for example....and they most definately are not the sharpest tools in the shed...more than capable of cutting off their noses to spite their faces...witness SQ's constant expat pilot purges for the slightest excuse...then 6 mths later when things pick up again they are short of pilots...it's reached the stage that they have done it so many times career expats just don't apply, at least in sufficient numbers, anymore....and they'll just never have enough of their own nationals to staff the place without expats...they hate that...they hide it very well but Singaporeans would be among the most rascist people I've ever met....they also hide pretty well the fact that Singapore is not a democracy...it's a dictatorship.
I don't mind competition and another operator or two across the pacific would probably be an improvement...but there are operators like UA etc who are struggling big time post 911...let them increase capacity across the pacific if the loads are there and help them recover and maintain as much employment as possible for their people, most of whom are looking down the barrell of losing their jobs and the decimation of their accrued retirement benefits.
Often times QF's attitudes to service etc leave a lot to be desired...but really do we want to see the pacific route turned into the same fare wars as we see in the J curve?
Many people will say "hey you bet....cheap is all I want". No social conscience there.
We all are up in arms about alleged plans to downsize QF and send jobs to asia....I think a completely opens skies policy which is effectively all one way in terms of who it benefits, and that won't be QF, is the quickest way to see massive downsizing of the Australian workforce at QF.
I'd rather see the Australian Govt pass legislation making it illegal...or at the very least not financially attractive via some strategic tax law reforms...to ship jobs offshore at all...Indian call centers/maintenance etc??? I mean come on!!
The govts always on about creating employment and reducing unemployment amongst Australians of whatever ethnic background...anyone with an ounce of intelligence knows that the politicians know that to really reduce unemployment dramatically would require revisions of tax law that the corporations won't tolerate or revisions to wages etc that workers/voters won't tolerate...the later is what EBAs are all about...economic rationalist theory which says business can employ more people if you pay them less....The 'market' has had it's turn to let supply and demand rule and has proved that the greed of management and shareholders knows no bounds....
"We are the ENTERPRISE you are the BARGAIN....AGAIN!!!"
Anything the coalition has ever said or says in the future must be judged as cynical rhetoric aimed at dupeing voters after Idiot Andersons suggestion that jobs from QF going overseas is a good idea!!! Does this moron really believe they will be employed by QF or will they be sourced from an employment agency under terms and conditions that would be considered draconian in Oz?
How much more does the tax payers/benefit recievers equation need to tip away from parity before these dickheads realise that they are creating a time bomb....one that won't effect them personally due to their super generous superannuation schemes...the exact same defined benefit schemes that would bankrupt the country if they were still available to the % of the working population that they were 25 yrs ago.
The social costs being accrued by the politicians, CEOs and the 'Market' against ordinary Australians should be sending the population into a rage...except the media ensures they don't know it even exists.
Singapore is about to pass it's zenith as a world hub....it's been obvious for some years that this would eventually happen as aircraft came on line with seriously long range potential...the writing was on the wall when the 744 hit the skies....that's not to say it won't remain a regional hub but the asian countries which surround fortress singapura aren't populated with big spenders who will slip a day in Singapore and do a tour or some serious shopping...lots of Indonesians etc on there way to and from labouring jobs...amahs etc.
I quite like Singapore...based there for two years...but it's not a place that will attract tourists because there is nothing there worth seeing...it's a shopping center.
Why wouldn't QF, via it's tame minister, tell SQ to go forth and multiply and simply send the A380s either direct to LHR/FRA/CDG/LAX/SFO/DFW or wherever and send the 744s via DXB or HKG and then up through China and Russia on the great circle route?
I am not particularly pro QF or anti QF....can't say I agree with Dixon's methods...but that applies equally to the great majority of CEOs working for publicly listed companies...or should I say working for institutional investers/speculators.
The fact is SQ have nothing to bargain with...they might be applying a little pressure at the moment via Jetstar Asia but I'd bet if they promised to let up in exchange for 5th freedom rights ex Oz to the US west coast they squash Jetstar Asia like a bug as soon as they got what they wanted signed sealed and delivered....that's the way the 'master race' in Singapore do business.
The military, or more accurately the ex military old boys club runs most things, like SQ for example....and they most definately are not the sharpest tools in the shed...more than capable of cutting off their noses to spite their faces...witness SQ's constant expat pilot purges for the slightest excuse...then 6 mths later when things pick up again they are short of pilots...it's reached the stage that they have done it so many times career expats just don't apply, at least in sufficient numbers, anymore....and they'll just never have enough of their own nationals to staff the place without expats...they hate that...they hide it very well but Singaporeans would be among the most rascist people I've ever met....they also hide pretty well the fact that Singapore is not a democracy...it's a dictatorship.
I don't mind competition and another operator or two across the pacific would probably be an improvement...but there are operators like UA etc who are struggling big time post 911...let them increase capacity across the pacific if the loads are there and help them recover and maintain as much employment as possible for their people, most of whom are looking down the barrell of losing their jobs and the decimation of their accrued retirement benefits.
Often times QF's attitudes to service etc leave a lot to be desired...but really do we want to see the pacific route turned into the same fare wars as we see in the J curve?
Many people will say "hey you bet....cheap is all I want". No social conscience there.
We all are up in arms about alleged plans to downsize QF and send jobs to asia....I think a completely opens skies policy which is effectively all one way in terms of who it benefits, and that won't be QF, is the quickest way to see massive downsizing of the Australian workforce at QF.
I'd rather see the Australian Govt pass legislation making it illegal...or at the very least not financially attractive via some strategic tax law reforms...to ship jobs offshore at all...Indian call centers/maintenance etc??? I mean come on!!
The govts always on about creating employment and reducing unemployment amongst Australians of whatever ethnic background...anyone with an ounce of intelligence knows that the politicians know that to really reduce unemployment dramatically would require revisions of tax law that the corporations won't tolerate or revisions to wages etc that workers/voters won't tolerate...the later is what EBAs are all about...economic rationalist theory which says business can employ more people if you pay them less....The 'market' has had it's turn to let supply and demand rule and has proved that the greed of management and shareholders knows no bounds....
"We are the ENTERPRISE you are the BARGAIN....AGAIN!!!"
Anything the coalition has ever said or says in the future must be judged as cynical rhetoric aimed at dupeing voters after Idiot Andersons suggestion that jobs from QF going overseas is a good idea!!! Does this moron really believe they will be employed by QF or will they be sourced from an employment agency under terms and conditions that would be considered draconian in Oz?
How much more does the tax payers/benefit recievers equation need to tip away from parity before these dickheads realise that they are creating a time bomb....one that won't effect them personally due to their super generous superannuation schemes...the exact same defined benefit schemes that would bankrupt the country if they were still available to the % of the working population that they were 25 yrs ago.
The social costs being accrued by the politicians, CEOs and the 'Market' against ordinary Australians should be sending the population into a rage...except the media ensures they don't know it even exists.
Thread Starter
Great post Chimbu,
I wonder what the going rate is in India or Bangladesh for a transport minister ? To me there is a big saving to be had there for the tax paying public, and lets face it the prospective couldn't be much worse !!
Cheers Oz2
I wonder what the going rate is in India or Bangladesh for a transport minister ? To me there is a big saving to be had there for the tax paying public, and lets face it the prospective couldn't be much worse !!
Cheers Oz2
