Jetstar routes & 717 to Qantas Link
Join Date: Jul 2000
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Well done Pete….
J* for those who would like to get there foot in the door in HK is probably the way to go as for a future to much like hard work for little return..
J* for those who would like to get there foot in the door in HK is probably the way to go as for a future to much like hard work for little return..
Join Date: Jun 2001
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So when's your start date, Spinout?
JQ are still interviewing a considerable number of D/E A320 Capts. Most are locally based, but some want to come home from O.S.
JQ are still interviewing a considerable number of D/E A320 Capts. Most are locally based, but some want to come home from O.S.
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swh -in employment terms, Singapore and Hong Kong are in no way considered to be the same region as Australia. Do you really expect Australian employees to be rewarded the same as HKG based? I doubt it.
In the "region", Jetstar are on par with other narrow body operators. Virgin Pacific, Virgin Blue, Jet Connect, Freedom, NJS, Skywest etc. None of these pay "almost twice as much" as Jetstar.
There are pilots "leaving" Singapore and Taiwan to move to Jetsar in Oz. Eva and Silkair have been a good source of crew. And they are certainly not moving to where the money is better. Perhaps they have other motives.
In the "region", Jetstar are on par with other narrow body operators. Virgin Pacific, Virgin Blue, Jet Connect, Freedom, NJS, Skywest etc. None of these pay "almost twice as much" as Jetstar.
There are pilots "leaving" Singapore and Taiwan to move to Jetsar in Oz. Eva and Silkair have been a good source of crew. And they are certainly not moving to where the money is better. Perhaps they have other motives.
Join Date: Sep 2004
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JetBlue, F/O A320 year one $52900 usd. (68000 aud)
Approx the same as Jetstar after tax, however, when compared to cost of living (NYC compared to BNE,MEL,HBA) Jetstar pilot comes out way ahead.
Airtran, Frontier and Jetblue (all pay roughly the same salary) represent the new airline scene in the US - they are consistantly employing and represent the lions share of new airline jobs in America. The Majors employed less than 100 pilots last year.
Jetstar is nothing abnormal.
Approx the same as Jetstar after tax, however, when compared to cost of living (NYC compared to BNE,MEL,HBA) Jetstar pilot comes out way ahead.
Airtran, Frontier and Jetblue (all pay roughly the same salary) represent the new airline scene in the US - they are consistantly employing and represent the lions share of new airline jobs in America. The Majors employed less than 100 pilots last year.
Jetstar is nothing abnormal.
I was amazed also at the amount of American Pilots that have to work second jobs. Serious, not uncommon for a new guy to fly a Regional prop/jet in the day and pack shelves, drive taxi's, barmen etc. at night.
Sad state of affairs and somehow I get the feeling we are not too far behind
.
Sad state of affairs and somehow I get the feeling we are not too far behind
.
Hoss
Your choice. There are thousands of well renumerated Australian pilots.
Impulse and VB started the rot and now seek these jobs aswell, without the fortitude to clean their own backyard first.
If you pay for your endorsement as a stepping stone to get a good job overseas, you will be disappointed, as economic fundamentals suggest a flow of cheap Australian pilots will put a downward trend on conditions.
You come to our airlines, having paid for your endorsement and worked for poor renumeration, do you now expect me not to sign off on a C or D scale wage package for you?
Bugger you. I am not fighting the battles of weak Australian low cost pilots!
Chilli
You are playing Devil's Advocate with a morbid satsisfaction in the deterioration of domestic pilot conditions.
Only a few years ago, you were enjoying conditions of service at least 40% better than now in a domestic Australian airline- QF enjoyed similar.
Pilots who pay for their endorsements give managment a green light to provide poor conditions- Impulse, Virgin Group etc.
Have you had to pay for an endorsement in the last few years? No, your not stupid, just homesick.
Taiwan a poor example. A horrible place, horrible companies and pilots there because they are blackbanned and ex- AN management pilots took the better SQ positions.
Singapore? More Australian pilots coming to Singapore than are leaving. I am not aware of what an SQ Captain is paid compared to Impulse say.
Your choice. There are thousands of well renumerated Australian pilots.
Impulse and VB started the rot and now seek these jobs aswell, without the fortitude to clean their own backyard first.
If you pay for your endorsement as a stepping stone to get a good job overseas, you will be disappointed, as economic fundamentals suggest a flow of cheap Australian pilots will put a downward trend on conditions.
You come to our airlines, having paid for your endorsement and worked for poor renumeration, do you now expect me not to sign off on a C or D scale wage package for you?
Bugger you. I am not fighting the battles of weak Australian low cost pilots!
Chilli
You are playing Devil's Advocate with a morbid satsisfaction in the deterioration of domestic pilot conditions.
Only a few years ago, you were enjoying conditions of service at least 40% better than now in a domestic Australian airline- QF enjoyed similar.
Pilots who pay for their endorsements give managment a green light to provide poor conditions- Impulse, Virgin Group etc.
Have you had to pay for an endorsement in the last few years? No, your not stupid, just homesick.
Taiwan a poor example. A horrible place, horrible companies and pilots there because they are blackbanned and ex- AN management pilots took the better SQ positions.
Singapore? More Australian pilots coming to Singapore than are leaving. I am not aware of what an SQ Captain is paid compared to Impulse say.
Red Hot Chili Pepper,
Still dont know where you pulled the "Oceania, or Australia - Pacific" thing from, other than the soccor hightlights on SBS.
Hong Kong and Singapore are part of our region, it takes people just about as long to go PER-SIN as PER-BNE, or OZ-HKG, PER-CNS.
None of the operators you mentioned are A320 operators, however I understand that freedom are training A320 crews up at the moment. Only reason people set up airlines in NZ is the NZ dollar is less than OZ dollar.
Shake a tree of ATPL holders, every man and his dog has flown 737's, training is cheap, and pay less than AUD$3/month for captains before tax is bieng paid in the region (I shoud clarify our ecomonic region APEC).
I will make something very clear once for you, Airbus provides free endorsements (known as training credits) when you purchase aircraft, its their way of making sure you dont crash and and give the type a bad name, keeps initial, lease, and reasle prices for A320s high as they are perceived as being safe.
So you must ask yourself, if they have training credits, why do they charge pilots for the endorsement ?
Zapatas Blood mentioned Jetblue, as far as I know they dont ask their pilots to pay for endorsements, as they mentioned the US tax system does not rape you as much as in Australia either.
May I suggest you engage the brain, and auto thinking, and ask yourself why a 15 yr old in coles takes home more per hour than a jetstar f/o does.
Gnadenburg,
A SQ/Silk A320 captain takes home about three times plus of an Impulse Captain. Tiger the SQ low cost take home over double an Impulse captains wage, and those who are working for Tiger and contracted through PARC are on even better money still.
Still dont know where you pulled the "Oceania, or Australia - Pacific" thing from, other than the soccor hightlights on SBS.
Hong Kong and Singapore are part of our region, it takes people just about as long to go PER-SIN as PER-BNE, or OZ-HKG, PER-CNS.
None of the operators you mentioned are A320 operators, however I understand that freedom are training A320 crews up at the moment. Only reason people set up airlines in NZ is the NZ dollar is less than OZ dollar.
Shake a tree of ATPL holders, every man and his dog has flown 737's, training is cheap, and pay less than AUD$3/month for captains before tax is bieng paid in the region (I shoud clarify our ecomonic region APEC).
I will make something very clear once for you, Airbus provides free endorsements (known as training credits) when you purchase aircraft, its their way of making sure you dont crash and and give the type a bad name, keeps initial, lease, and reasle prices for A320s high as they are perceived as being safe.
So you must ask yourself, if they have training credits, why do they charge pilots for the endorsement ?
Zapatas Blood mentioned Jetblue, as far as I know they dont ask their pilots to pay for endorsements, as they mentioned the US tax system does not rape you as much as in Australia either.
May I suggest you engage the brain, and auto thinking, and ask yourself why a 15 yr old in coles takes home more per hour than a jetstar f/o does.
Gnadenburg,
A SQ/Silk A320 captain takes home about three times plus of an Impulse Captain. Tiger the SQ low cost take home over double an Impulse captains wage, and those who are working for Tiger and contracted through PARC are on even better money still.
Bottums Up
Gnad,
How would you suggest the industry stop the practice of paying for endorsements? I'd be really surprised if all pilots would agree not to, thus forcing a halt, as enough would see the opportunity to make a quick progression and therfore hand over the $$$$.
How would you suggest the industry stop the practice of paying for endorsements? I'd be really surprised if all pilots would agree not to, thus forcing a halt, as enough would see the opportunity to make a quick progression and therfore hand over the $$$$.
whats the cost of living like in SIN or HKG? This certainly would be a consideration when comparing packages. I would think you wouldn't be a lot better off even on 2xJ* money over there.
I hope that none of you out there whinging about J* conditions have now applied or ever will apply when you get sick of the expat lifestyle. Somehow I suspect there will be plenty who do...
swh, did they pay for your endorsement?
I hope that none of you out there whinging about J* conditions have now applied or ever will apply when you get sick of the expat lifestyle. Somehow I suspect there will be plenty who do...
swh, did they pay for your endorsement?
Join Date: Dec 2000
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Of course it is about money. Why else would I spend half my life with my head in the books reading about SOPS, hydraulics, runway performance requirements, the whole shebang.
i am earning 3 times more now in my own business that i ever did in avaition, and probably more than a 747 captain! (take home after tax and other expenses super etc, is over $70K) and it pays for my love of flying!
sure, i dreamed of the airline jobs, but i simply could not afford to pay for my training
and spending time with my head in the books takes my mind away from the teediums of running a business, and gives my time to myself.
Im sure quite a few professional pilots love the lifestyle and the job and job satisfaction itself more then the money.
Captain C.,
Perhaps by saying "No" could be a good start....
"A bit simplistic" I hear you say, but got to start somewhere. Should the opportunity arise in the future for you to fly, say a 717, are you happy to fork out the $30K or thereabouts?
What about contributing part of the cost of your endorsement AND taking a $1000 pay cut all for the privelege of The Company winning a contract....
Unfortunately, I can see only 1 BIG winner and an even bigger loser in the awarding of the QantasLink contract...
As a current NJS skipper relayed to me recently "This contract is just about seeing how far we can bend over and how far further the sour lemon can be shoved up our a$$."
Perhaps by saying "No" could be a good start....
"A bit simplistic" I hear you say, but got to start somewhere. Should the opportunity arise in the future for you to fly, say a 717, are you happy to fork out the $30K or thereabouts?
What about contributing part of the cost of your endorsement AND taking a $1000 pay cut all for the privelege of The Company winning a contract....
Unfortunately, I can see only 1 BIG winner and an even bigger loser in the awarding of the QantasLink contract...
As a current NJS skipper relayed to me recently "This contract is just about seeing how far we can bend over and how far further the sour lemon can be shoved up our a$$."
Bottums Up
boocs
You're right, I would say "a bit simplistic" as I have no doubt that in your hypothetical, if I did say no, then some one would say yes and when I then lamented my job loss, some one else would say "well you're a knob for giving it up".
Am I happy to pay for an endorsement? No.
Would I? If it meant gaining a job that I wanted, or not losing one I've got; most likely.
It all depends upon the cost, is it woth it to me?
One only has to read the PPRuNe fora to become aware that there is no such thing as solidarity amongst pilots. There's lots of spruking about it but bugger al evidence of it. Much like that year that should not be named. Every one was going to stick together then, many did but many didn't.
The prescedent was set for paying for endorsements by Virgin and then Jetstar in Aus. I mightn't like it but it sure seems to me that the writing is on the wall. Those who won't accept it will probably leave the industry, or choose an employer who doesn't charge. The pragmatists will decide if they're prepared to pay the cost.
You're right, I would say "a bit simplistic" as I have no doubt that in your hypothetical, if I did say no, then some one would say yes and when I then lamented my job loss, some one else would say "well you're a knob for giving it up".
Am I happy to pay for an endorsement? No.
Would I? If it meant gaining a job that I wanted, or not losing one I've got; most likely.
It all depends upon the cost, is it woth it to me?
One only has to read the PPRuNe fora to become aware that there is no such thing as solidarity amongst pilots. There's lots of spruking about it but bugger al evidence of it. Much like that year that should not be named. Every one was going to stick together then, many did but many didn't.
The prescedent was set for paying for endorsements by Virgin and then Jetstar in Aus. I mightn't like it but it sure seems to me that the writing is on the wall. Those who won't accept it will probably leave the industry, or choose an employer who doesn't charge. The pragmatists will decide if they're prepared to pay the cost.
Join Date: Jul 2003
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In regards to the 2yrs as Capt, then back to FO. A mate who has just joined J* as direct entry A320 Capt, has just told me that it has now gone out to 3yrs.
Me thinks he will never have to wear 3 stripes with the expected massive growth.
Even if they don,t win the 717 contract.
Me thinks he will never have to wear 3 stripes with the expected massive growth.
Even if they don,t win the 717 contract.
Claret
There has been real apathy amongst the Low Cost Pilots of Australia ( VB and J* ). In a short period of time conditons have nearly halved.
I have no answers for poor motivation amongst a professional group.
Blackbanning Low Cost Pilots, from the better airline positions they may eventually seek, may force these pilots to realise the only improvement they will get is from their current employer.
I doubt if this could or would be enforced. But it certainly would make it harder for apathetic pilots in Australia to ruin the profession at home and pack the bags for greener pastures.
My answer may well be to sell you out, by signing off lower wages in the form of B & C scales. This will protect my conditions for a few years more-and then I will be wealthy enough to be a Low Cost Pilot!
There has been real apathy amongst the Low Cost Pilots of Australia ( VB and J* ). In a short period of time conditons have nearly halved.
I have no answers for poor motivation amongst a professional group.
Blackbanning Low Cost Pilots, from the better airline positions they may eventually seek, may force these pilots to realise the only improvement they will get is from their current employer.
I doubt if this could or would be enforced. But it certainly would make it harder for apathetic pilots in Australia to ruin the profession at home and pack the bags for greener pastures.
My answer may well be to sell you out, by signing off lower wages in the form of B & C scales. This will protect my conditions for a few years more-and then I will be wealthy enough to be a Low Cost Pilot!
Join Date: Sep 2003
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Here we go again!! As I see It, we all have choices. If you are happy to accept sub standard conditions and salary and your are prepared to get fleeced by paying for your own endorsment then take the job with the LCC, maybe it's a stepping stone?
If you want the good money and conditions, and they are out there, then persue that, but please, it's your choice, stop the bitching and complaining. We pilots allowed this to happen by accepting these conditions. It's like going to a crap restaurant, getting lousy service, horrible food and paying for it without saying a word.
Get the message.... You get what you settle for in life!!!!!!!!
If you want the good money and conditions, and they are out there, then persue that, but please, it's your choice, stop the bitching and complaining. We pilots allowed this to happen by accepting these conditions. It's like going to a crap restaurant, getting lousy service, horrible food and paying for it without saying a word.
Get the message.... You get what you settle for in life!!!!!!!!
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Gnad - I have no satisfaction at all regarding the deteriorating conditions in oz. I hope to return one day and would much rather an AN pay packet than a Jetstar / Virgin pay packet. But these things are in the hands of the global market gods, not mine.
I have not paid for training for almost 15 years now - the only outgoing I have had since joining the airline game was paying to be interviewed by QF. But, if me and the missus and rugrats decide one day in the future that moving back to oz is required, I will seek the best highest paid job that I can. Bearing in mind that I have no skills other than flying, I will be seeking a flying job. QF have given me the big no, so I ask you Gnad, what would you do. I am A320 rated, not 737, so Jetstar will probably make more sense - although I wouldn't really care either way. As far as I can tell, getting a 320 job with jetstar brings the highest salary and staff travel benefits available in oz, with the exception of QF. I would however, pay for a 737 rating were Virgin the only offer on the table.
SWH - very little point in arguing about definition of regions, but Sin and Hkg have never and will never be considered the same region as far as staff benefits are concerned, in any industry.You may wish to work in oz getting paid a Hkg salary, but wishing it doesn't make it so. Your offer of flight times to define pay scales is hilarious. If only it was that simple. You also quote ZP thus "as they mentioned the US tax system does not rape you as much as in Australia either". The US tax system is totally irrelevant. As Zap pointed out, AFTER TAX, a Jetblue / Frontier etc pilot is worse off than a Jetstar pilot.
Boocs - "perhaps by saying no is a good start". A friend of mine in Europe is flying RHS 767 and would love to come back to oz. He is not 737 type rated or A320 type rated. He is an adult and fully prepared and financially able to pay for an endorsement. He has been interviewed by virgin and told to pay for a rating and is aware that if he were interviewed by jetstar he would also have to pay for a rating. So do you suggest he pass up the opportunity to return to oz, something he wants to do, by saying to both airlines, NO. In the vain hope it would force them to change recruitment policy? More importantly, do you have the right to dictate to my friend what he should do?
rtforu - "If you want the good money and conditions, and they are out there, then persue that, but please". I assume that you consider QF to be the only airline in this category (although I don't). Could you please please please explain to me just how you "pursue" a job with QF after they have turned you down. I am really keen to know.
I know many pilots at VB, Jetstar and QF. The VB pilots are not that happy with the number of overnights or the pay being less than the same job being done at QF. The guys I know recently arrived at Jetstar (ex AN), are just glad to get back to oz, from eva, silk, value and even one who gave an offer at KA the flick in preference to J.
BUT, they generally accept the decisions they made and do not "bitch and complain" as you infer. The lions share of whining I hear is from pilots at legacy carriers that are S@#$% scared that the rest of the industry is undermining their pay and conditions.
Market forces that give you a DVD player for 200 bucks are the same market forces that rationalise the compensation levels of a deregulated industry.
Please, take it up with Friedman or Keynes, not me.
I have not paid for training for almost 15 years now - the only outgoing I have had since joining the airline game was paying to be interviewed by QF. But, if me and the missus and rugrats decide one day in the future that moving back to oz is required, I will seek the best highest paid job that I can. Bearing in mind that I have no skills other than flying, I will be seeking a flying job. QF have given me the big no, so I ask you Gnad, what would you do. I am A320 rated, not 737, so Jetstar will probably make more sense - although I wouldn't really care either way. As far as I can tell, getting a 320 job with jetstar brings the highest salary and staff travel benefits available in oz, with the exception of QF. I would however, pay for a 737 rating were Virgin the only offer on the table.
SWH - very little point in arguing about definition of regions, but Sin and Hkg have never and will never be considered the same region as far as staff benefits are concerned, in any industry.You may wish to work in oz getting paid a Hkg salary, but wishing it doesn't make it so. Your offer of flight times to define pay scales is hilarious. If only it was that simple. You also quote ZP thus "as they mentioned the US tax system does not rape you as much as in Australia either". The US tax system is totally irrelevant. As Zap pointed out, AFTER TAX, a Jetblue / Frontier etc pilot is worse off than a Jetstar pilot.
Boocs - "perhaps by saying no is a good start". A friend of mine in Europe is flying RHS 767 and would love to come back to oz. He is not 737 type rated or A320 type rated. He is an adult and fully prepared and financially able to pay for an endorsement. He has been interviewed by virgin and told to pay for a rating and is aware that if he were interviewed by jetstar he would also have to pay for a rating. So do you suggest he pass up the opportunity to return to oz, something he wants to do, by saying to both airlines, NO. In the vain hope it would force them to change recruitment policy? More importantly, do you have the right to dictate to my friend what he should do?
rtforu - "If you want the good money and conditions, and they are out there, then persue that, but please". I assume that you consider QF to be the only airline in this category (although I don't). Could you please please please explain to me just how you "pursue" a job with QF after they have turned you down. I am really keen to know.
I know many pilots at VB, Jetstar and QF. The VB pilots are not that happy with the number of overnights or the pay being less than the same job being done at QF. The guys I know recently arrived at Jetstar (ex AN), are just glad to get back to oz, from eva, silk, value and even one who gave an offer at KA the flick in preference to J.
BUT, they generally accept the decisions they made and do not "bitch and complain" as you infer. The lions share of whining I hear is from pilots at legacy carriers that are S@#$% scared that the rest of the industry is undermining their pay and conditions.
Market forces that give you a DVD player for 200 bucks are the same market forces that rationalise the compensation levels of a deregulated industry.
Please, take it up with Friedman or Keynes, not me.