QF training
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Gold Coast, Australia
Age: 79
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
QF training
“Has Anything Happened to Qantas Training Since BKK?”
Some minor changes to keep the Safety Dept and media quiet, but, sadly not enough.
The same ‘60’s Tech v’s Cabin attitudes alas prevail. Most Cabin Crew do not engage with Tech Crew, considering most as elitist and “big headed”. Except for short haul, Tech Crew alas also are standoffish, and this is reflected in the workplace.
The Capt still sits at the front of the crew bus, the Cabin Crew at the back. As a rule the more senior the Capt, the worse he/she is at Managing/ linking. Then they are promoted to Management. What a company.
At the twice yearly EPC courses, a charade is played out. Everyone appears to interface and inter-act. That lasts til 1600 on the day. Next day on the aircraft back to standard operation, which is- you do your job, I’ll do mine.
Sadly since QF1, has anything changed?…….not enough.
Some minor changes to keep the Safety Dept and media quiet, but, sadly not enough.
The same ‘60’s Tech v’s Cabin attitudes alas prevail. Most Cabin Crew do not engage with Tech Crew, considering most as elitist and “big headed”. Except for short haul, Tech Crew alas also are standoffish, and this is reflected in the workplace.
The Capt still sits at the front of the crew bus, the Cabin Crew at the back. As a rule the more senior the Capt, the worse he/she is at Managing/ linking. Then they are promoted to Management. What a company.
At the twice yearly EPC courses, a charade is played out. Everyone appears to interface and inter-act. That lasts til 1600 on the day. Next day on the aircraft back to standard operation, which is- you do your job, I’ll do mine.
Sadly since QF1, has anything changed?…….not enough.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Neverhome
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree. Quite often, as a social experiment, I get on the bus and sit about 3 or 4 rows from the back. This causes some considerable angst among the cabin crew - especially the more senior ones. This is matched by the look of genuine confusion from some of the tech crew that I am not in the 3rd row from the front. I recently operated a pattern with two cabin crews - one junior and one senior (very, very, senior). It was almost like they worked for two different airlines.
So how often if the captain does not go down the back to say hello, do the cabin crew go up the front and introduce themselves? Of course he must be a bighead and an elitist who hasn't got things to do like liase with the ground engineers the caters the CSM etc.
He should always be to one to make the effort, which unless pushed for time I have seen almost all captains do, to say hello to the crew. Yet when pushed for time and no introductions have been made do the cabin crew ever make the effort on a 9 hour sector to come to the flight deck and say hello. Well I have seen it about a dozen times in my five years and ten of those were from perth based crew.
How many times have cabin crew invited the Tech guys out to dinner or downstairs for crew drinks compared to how often they are asked.
We get an appriecation of there job when we pax or venture down the back, how often do we get a request to sit up the pointy end during T/O or LDG to get an appriecation of ours when we are busy.
When I have ventured to the back of the bus I get strange looks or a "what are you guys doing down the back" statement
Ok enought of a spray, so what should change then. . You state that there are problems what needs to be done to fix it.
He should always be to one to make the effort, which unless pushed for time I have seen almost all captains do, to say hello to the crew. Yet when pushed for time and no introductions have been made do the cabin crew ever make the effort on a 9 hour sector to come to the flight deck and say hello. Well I have seen it about a dozen times in my five years and ten of those were from perth based crew.
How many times have cabin crew invited the Tech guys out to dinner or downstairs for crew drinks compared to how often they are asked.
We get an appriecation of there job when we pax or venture down the back, how often do we get a request to sit up the pointy end during T/O or LDG to get an appriecation of ours when we are busy.
When I have ventured to the back of the bus I get strange looks or a "what are you guys doing down the back" statement
Ok enought of a spray, so what should change then. . You state that there are problems what needs to be done to fix it.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Geez you guys make QF sound more like the Asian airlines (with their associated cultures) than the great Ozzie one - the pre'89 Ansett - that I've worked for.
In Asia, the Captain is ALWAYS called "Captain", regardless of where you are....on a day off on the train...having a social drink or meal with the crew, and regardless of asking them to PLEASE call you "M".
"Yes Captain", is the reply!
This was NEVER the case in Ansett, and it NEVER affected the position of the Captain at work, nor caused any erosion of his authority.
I can imagine, however, that with Oz culture being what it is, HAVING to refer to the Captain as "Captain" may well work AGAINST creating a comfortable working environment, and might inhibit the flow of some information to/from the cockpit.
I have occasionally done the same thing (here in Asia) on the crew bus that transports us to/from the hotels on stay patterns, Longhauler, and it's interesting to watch the CC's reactions.
Generally it's firstly one of confusion, but then they make 1 of 2 decisions, either -
1) Because the Captain is seated at the back of the 'bus, they must also sit in order of reverse seniority, with the most junior seated in the front seat (where the Captain usuallly sits), or,
2) They must still sit in order of seniority, with the most senior occupying the front seat.
If one understands Asian culture, then you accept that this is the way it is, and they are uncomfortable being asked to do it any other way.
But in Australia??!!!
It certainly seems to go AGAINST the western concept of practices encouraged to instil a favourable CRM environment, imo.
In Asia, the Captain is ALWAYS called "Captain", regardless of where you are....on a day off on the train...having a social drink or meal with the crew, and regardless of asking them to PLEASE call you "M".
"Yes Captain", is the reply!
This was NEVER the case in Ansett, and it NEVER affected the position of the Captain at work, nor caused any erosion of his authority.
I can imagine, however, that with Oz culture being what it is, HAVING to refer to the Captain as "Captain" may well work AGAINST creating a comfortable working environment, and might inhibit the flow of some information to/from the cockpit.
I have occasionally done the same thing (here in Asia) on the crew bus that transports us to/from the hotels on stay patterns, Longhauler, and it's interesting to watch the CC's reactions.
Generally it's firstly one of confusion, but then they make 1 of 2 decisions, either -
1) Because the Captain is seated at the back of the 'bus, they must also sit in order of reverse seniority, with the most junior seated in the front seat (where the Captain usuallly sits), or,
2) They must still sit in order of seniority, with the most senior occupying the front seat.
If one understands Asian culture, then you accept that this is the way it is, and they are uncomfortable being asked to do it any other way.
But in Australia??!!!
It certainly seems to go AGAINST the western concept of practices encouraged to instil a favourable CRM environment, imo.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: somewhere in Australia
Posts: 241
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sounds like some of the more senior captains should be sent to the regionals to see what it is really like to work as a crew..... One of the great things about the regionals is the way cabin and tech crew get along, maybe some of the long haul cabin crew should also be sent to the regionals to learn what service is… just a thought…
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Oz
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thats hilarious, Longhauler. 
But you really shouldn't screw about with their minds like that!
The QF culture is evolving though. The dinosaurs are slowly retiring, leaving younger and smarter operators there. The change IS happenning, however slow.
But you really shouldn't screw about with their minds like that!
The QF culture is evolving though. The dinosaurs are slowly retiring, leaving younger and smarter operators there. The change IS happenning, however slow.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: NSW Australia
Posts: 233
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And the winner for The Greatest Generalisations and Sweeping Statements goes too ........... (drumroll) ............... THIS THREAD!!!!
Guys,
No two crews are the same. Some crews (cabin and tech) are excellent: some crew are not. Some captains are brilliant: some captains are not. Some CSMs are brilliant: some CSMs are not. Do you get my point?
Personally, I sit toward the front of the bus because I can get off quickly and get to the hotel room. If pleasantries are exchanged then well and good, I'll join in ... if not, who cares? Yes, it would be nice if the cabin crew joined us occasionally for dinner, but then again, that probably has something to do with the boring pilot talk that we would subject them to all night.
Interaction in the bus hardly determines the level of CRM in the professional working environment. Same/same for attendance at the bar/restaurant. Some will want to associate and others won't - it's called Freedom of Association.
Guys,
No two crews are the same. Some crews (cabin and tech) are excellent: some crew are not. Some captains are brilliant: some captains are not. Some CSMs are brilliant: some CSMs are not. Do you get my point?
Personally, I sit toward the front of the bus because I can get off quickly and get to the hotel room. If pleasantries are exchanged then well and good, I'll join in ... if not, who cares? Yes, it would be nice if the cabin crew joined us occasionally for dinner, but then again, that probably has something to do with the boring pilot talk that we would subject them to all night.
Interaction in the bus hardly determines the level of CRM in the professional working environment. Same/same for attendance at the bar/restaurant. Some will want to associate and others won't - it's called Freedom of Association.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Neverhome
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Three Bars,
"No two crews are the same. Some crews (cabin and tech) are excellent: some crew are not. Some captains are brilliant: some captains are not. Some CSMs are brilliant: some CSMs are not. Do you get my point?"
Yes. I am sure most of us get that point.
"Personally, I sit toward the front of the bus because I can get off quickly and get to the hotel room. "
I was referring to the bus trip on the way to the airport.
"...that probably has something to do with the boring pilot talk that we would subject them to all night. "
Speak for yourself. We all talk shop sometimes but surely there are other aspects of life to be talked about over dinner and a beer? On the other side of the coin, I am sure I couldn't bear listening to SOME of the cabin crew talk all night if the conversations on the bus are anything to go by.
Of course, you are completely correct in your last paragraph.
Just some food for thought.
"No two crews are the same. Some crews (cabin and tech) are excellent: some crew are not. Some captains are brilliant: some captains are not. Some CSMs are brilliant: some CSMs are not. Do you get my point?"
Yes. I am sure most of us get that point.
"Personally, I sit toward the front of the bus because I can get off quickly and get to the hotel room. "
I was referring to the bus trip on the way to the airport.
"...that probably has something to do with the boring pilot talk that we would subject them to all night. "
Speak for yourself. We all talk shop sometimes but surely there are other aspects of life to be talked about over dinner and a beer? On the other side of the coin, I am sure I couldn't bear listening to SOME of the cabin crew talk all night if the conversations on the bus are anything to go by.
Of course, you are completely correct in your last paragraph.
Just some food for thought.
Last edited by Longhauler; 19th Oct 2004 at 10:00.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Vic
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you please Chimbu,
I for one take offence at your post,
I for one have been doing my upmost to improve Tech-Cabin Crew relations...
I've educated at least 15 female cabin crew (mostly junior, but on the odd occasion i must admit an older one has crept in),members in the bedroom, and do you think i get even a word of thanks... maybe some heavy panting .. but never any thanks...jeezez....
I for one take offence at your post,
I for one have been doing my upmost to improve Tech-Cabin Crew relations...
I've educated at least 15 female cabin crew (mostly junior, but on the odd occasion i must admit an older one has crept in),members in the bedroom, and do you think i get even a word of thanks... maybe some heavy panting .. but never any thanks...jeezez....
The Capt still sits at the front of the crew bus
I love this thread!
Best post today:
"Interaction in the bus hardly determines the level of CRM in the professional working environment."
With the very greatest of respect, like hell it doesn't!
What happens when the most junior, youngest and least experienced member of the crew notices something is a little bit wrong, that maybe isn't anything anyway, but doesn't have the confidence to report it, for fear of incurring the great Captain's wrath?
Go and learn up on neurolinguistics. Capt Snafu has it spot on. Did anyone ever teach you guys that 90% of communication is non verbal?
Best post today:
"Interaction in the bus hardly determines the level of CRM in the professional working environment."
With the very greatest of respect, like hell it doesn't!
What happens when the most junior, youngest and least experienced member of the crew notices something is a little bit wrong, that maybe isn't anything anyway, but doesn't have the confidence to report it, for fear of incurring the great Captain's wrath?
Go and learn up on neurolinguistics. Capt Snafu has it spot on. Did anyone ever teach you guys that 90% of communication is non verbal?
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: NSW Australia
Posts: 233
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So Sunfish.
Apart from being a former CEO, member of numerous boards absolute guru on everything, but you are now an expert on CRM, airline operations and non-verbal communications.
As I recall, you are getting a CPL or something for fun - so this obviously outweighs anything I have to say after 20+ years of multi-engine flying. I'm not worthy to be in your presence Sunfish. Tell me more!
Apart from being a former CEO, member of numerous boards absolute guru on everything, but you are now an expert on CRM, airline operations and non-verbal communications.
As I recall, you are getting a CPL or something for fun - so this obviously outweighs anything I have to say after 20+ years of multi-engine flying. I'm not worthy to be in your presence Sunfish. Tell me more!
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quick question...
I have been on several flights where the cabin crew did not know the captain's name. Is this normal??
Just to be sure, the crew had already been with the captain so it is not like they joined the tech crew for this sector.
Cheers
nb20
I have been on several flights where the cabin crew did not know the captain's name. Is this normal??
Just to be sure, the crew had already been with the captain so it is not like they joined the tech crew for this sector.
Cheers
nb20
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Gold Coast, Australia
Age: 79
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Then theres the one where the Cabin Crew was still finishing the service, unaware that the 76 had touched down at AKL. During the bus ride to the O/N hotel, not one word was mentioned about this masterpiece of mis-communication. No one, not the Tech Crew, not the Cabin crew asked why or how come? Wasn't til the papers got it next day the beans were spilt.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Oz
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sunfish. You really have a way with words, don't you? You might be a CEO, but you clearly know nothing about flying or CRM. What is clear is your dislike for Qantas.
CRM is Crew Resource Management.
Now, I'll grant you that group dynamics is certainly in force on a bus ride to the hotel, but CRM? Where are the resources that are being managed for Gods sake?
Just because the two groups aren't cosy and sitting in one anothers lap does not mean that professional repect and courtesy does not exist. I've watched this so many times. Generally, ALL of the crew, cabin and flight, interact extremely well in Qantas.
There are exceptions, as is the case world over. But this generally is NOT attributable to cranky old captains, as has been suggested.
Chimbu, you were on that bus were you, son? If not then please keep your cr@p to yourself.
The "tall poppy" syndrome really annoys me sometimes. If there is a valid gripe then lets hear it. Otherwise, this thread is just nonsense from fools.
CRM is Crew Resource Management.
Now, I'll grant you that group dynamics is certainly in force on a bus ride to the hotel, but CRM? Where are the resources that are being managed for Gods sake?
Just because the two groups aren't cosy and sitting in one anothers lap does not mean that professional repect and courtesy does not exist. I've watched this so many times. Generally, ALL of the crew, cabin and flight, interact extremely well in Qantas.
There are exceptions, as is the case world over. But this generally is NOT attributable to cranky old captains, as has been suggested.
Chimbu, you were on that bus were you, son? If not then please keep your cr@p to yourself.
The "tall poppy" syndrome really annoys me sometimes. If there is a valid gripe then lets hear it. Otherwise, this thread is just nonsense from fools.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
IMHO, Cactus, not too many other airline pilots consider QANTAS pilots to be tall poppies, wrt the salaries you guys (don't) earn, and having flown with quite a number of QF Captains (during their secondment to SQ), some of the QF sops were "different" to say the least eg. flying with the next track set on the pnf's side..........even if it was at 90 degrees to the current one, for an hour or more. 
Big fish - small pond syndrome perhaps?
It's a little bit hard to believe that in the encounter you relate, chimbu, the cabin crew didn't notice the gear extending, the body angle change, and the seat belt sign on for landing. But TOTALLY unbelievable when you state "unaware that the 76 had touched down"
Big fish - small pond syndrome perhaps?
It's a little bit hard to believe that in the encounter you relate, chimbu, the cabin crew didn't notice the gear extending, the body angle change, and the seat belt sign on for landing. But TOTALLY unbelievable when you state "unaware that the 76 had touched down"