Dash 8 Q-300 For Air Nelson
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Why not put a FEW of them in the left hand seat. Seems daft to put highly experienced Dash pilots into the right hand seat, just to save the feelings of some of the pilots. Although I am not applying if I were to I would hope that having over 3000 hours total time with 1500 hours on all variants of the Dash including command time I would be at least considered for a Direct Entry Command. Seems sensible to me.
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767pilot
You are absolutely right.
It's about time NZ aviation got past this parochial nonsense and hired the most qualified and most experienced people for the left seat.
Everybody wants to advance as quickly as possible, which is understandable, but putting a bunch of newly-converted people in the left seat is asking for trouble.
In aviation, experience and qualifications rule (well, outside NZ anyway).
You are absolutely right.
It's about time NZ aviation got past this parochial nonsense and hired the most qualified and most experienced people for the left seat.
Everybody wants to advance as quickly as possible, which is understandable, but putting a bunch of newly-converted people in the left seat is asking for trouble.
In aviation, experience and qualifications rule (well, outside NZ anyway).
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Ha Ha Aritifical Horizon - at least I assume you are taking the p*ss. There are plenty of instructors here in NZ with more total time than you. Until a year ago your hours/time wouldn't have been unusual for an entry level position with Air Nelson.
Many of the F/Os at Air Nelson have way more than 5000 hours, including several '000 hours Saab/Metro time. As far as Dash time goes, I can't see any of them struggling with the new type and I know who I would rather have in the left seat.
That's just the way things are in NZ. It is a pretty nice place to live, Air Nelson is a quality company so people don't move on. Can be frustrating waiting for a command, but even an F/O job is a great job.
Many of the F/Os at Air Nelson have way more than 5000 hours, including several '000 hours Saab/Metro time. As far as Dash time goes, I can't see any of them struggling with the new type and I know who I would rather have in the left seat.
That's just the way things are in NZ. It is a pretty nice place to live, Air Nelson is a quality company so people don't move on. Can be frustrating waiting for a command, but even an F/O job is a great job.
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I've never operated a Dash 8, but I would be suprised if it's as tricky as brain surgery. Surely judgement, command ability, and knowledge of company proceedures are the major considerations. If NAC Viscount and F27 captains could manage the conversion to a 737 without too much a do, can't see the big deal about switching turbo-prop types.
That's my two bobs worth anyway.
That's my two bobs worth anyway.
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Big Picture
Cloud Cutter, you are dead right, it is not brainsurgery, its about the big picture when you are in the Left Seat. In command of a Saab, or a Dash8 requires the same skills. All this banging on about "inexperiened" Dash8 captains is from those who want to jump the queue.
767 pilot, "a bit" of Saab time? Most of the captains would have more than 5000 hours with at least half that in the Saab.
Nosey
767 pilot, "a bit" of Saab time? Most of the captains would have more than 5000 hours with at least half that in the Saab.
Nosey
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I could see it getting very ugly if NSN started employing direct entry cappys.
It would only take one very pi&$ed F/O to go and see ALPA and it would all hit the fan.
splat
It would only take one very pi&$ed F/O to go and see ALPA and it would all hit the fan.
splat
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its about the big picture when you are in the Left Seat.
And "jump the queue"? What queue would that be? Look around, most industries select on skill and ability, not length of service. Aviation in NZ may have managed (so far) to avoid this common-sense approach, but it is coming - check out how all the low cost operators select and promote their staff - purely on merit.
Why do NZ pilots think they have a God-given right to the new machinery, just because they have been in the same company for years...
And before the accusations fly, I have no interest in flying a Dash 8.
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most industries select on skill and ability, not length of service
Seniority prevents the shafting and backstabbing that may otherwise get some to the top.
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MOR, I AM in the left seat, and I see a few guys with your attitude who think because they can grease it on 1 time in 10 they are ready for command. Yes, knowledge of systems is certainly part of the equation, but it is the big picture you need to be aware of.
The queue, if you look around, exists at just about every major carrier in the world. You can throw up all the arguments you like about brainsurgeons, it is totally irrelevant as it is a totally different enviroment. The LCCs don't just promote on ability, and if you try that argument, then you are completely full of the smelly stuff.
And why should the current pilots at Air Nelson not have the right to the new planes, they've been hired by the company, work there now and deserve it far more than anyone else. Quite a childish remark that one of yours mate.
Nosey
The queue, if you look around, exists at just about every major carrier in the world. You can throw up all the arguments you like about brainsurgeons, it is totally irrelevant as it is a totally different enviroment. The LCCs don't just promote on ability, and if you try that argument, then you are completely full of the smelly stuff.
And why should the current pilots at Air Nelson not have the right to the new planes, they've been hired by the company, work there now and deserve it far more than anyone else. Quite a childish remark that one of yours mate.
Nosey
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May I suggest that ALL posters should, before they engage their fingers at the keyboard to "have a go" at another posters imagined experience or lack of, that they should remain in neutral, go to the intendeds profile and click on "View all posts by" top RH and have a good look there.
It might save you some embarrassment in the future. CAPICHE
It might save you some embarrassment in the future. CAPICHE
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A wise company and their pilots would take on a few experienced contractors to ease the new aircraft in it would be an injection of experience on type that will make the difference between an average operation and a well oiled one. Think about this for a bit guys as just one aspect the New Dash 8's come fitted with the UNS 1C/D FMS which is an RNP.03 approach aid (lateral and Vertical). With the previous mentality of pulling the CB's of the FMS's on the Saab fleet most Air Nelson pilots, I suspect, could do with a good bit of training on practical RNAV operation along with just driving the "box' along with the aircraft..
Agreed seniority, on the upside, can keep all the brown nosing and back stabbing at bay however on the down side it also tends to keep all the dead wood floating around the top which generally doesn't show too much untill a new type and concept is introduced.
Oh and also before the accusations fly, ben there an done that with 4000 hrs command on 100,Q200 & Q300, LHS on a Jet now, no need to go back.
Agreed seniority, on the upside, can keep all the brown nosing and back stabbing at bay however on the down side it also tends to keep all the dead wood floating around the top which generally doesn't show too much untill a new type and concept is introduced.
Oh and also before the accusations fly, ben there an done that with 4000 hrs command on 100,Q200 & Q300, LHS on a Jet now, no need to go back.
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the ones that have proven their 'skill and ability' (not to mention loyalty) are at the top of the seniority list.
The queue, if you look around, exists at just about every major carrier in the world.
The LCCs don't just promote on ability, and if you try that argument, then you are completely full of the smelly stuff.
work there now and deserve it far more than anyone else.
go to the intendeds profile and click on "View all posts by" top RH and have a good look there.
In the end, this argument will come down to those who are beyond all this "they deserve it more" nonsense, and are flying bigger and better equipment, and those who are on their way up through the regionals and can only see the prospect of flying a Dash being dangled in front of them.
The Dash isn't bad... for a turboprop...
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The Dash 8 is not new to NZ with Ansett NZ operating them from the mid 80's right through until their demise in the early 00's. They even went through the unpleasant experience of crashing one so lets not forget that there was a lot of experience on Dash 8's in the not too distant past in NZ. I suspect a lot of this has probably moved on to bigger and better things. There currently is a Q200 operating in NZ and one of the guys, a Canadian, who flys it has some 7000 hours over all Dash 8 variants in various parts of the world. So as you can see there are some valuable rescources here right under your noses. Having, in the last year, transitioned to a new type (first of type as well) it proved very beneficial to us, once the type rating course completed, to have training and operational guidance from an Australian operator that had a wealth of experience on the aircraft but not necessarily on our type of operation. The Q300 is an old design that has stood the test of time which is the reason you guys are getting them. It is not too difficult to fly however like any aircraft there are motor memory and management skills that need to be developed to suit the type in the environment you operate. This will require a change in the way you do things and your operating philosopy and policy will more than likely change to suit the new type as its not just as simple as learning where the switches are and a few new speeds. Air NZ recently went to the Airbus and we have all heard of the little incident over the Manukau which I suspect will have at least something to do with the new aircraft being introduced. Look after your seniority list and make sure that it is all done properly, if that is the culture of your company, but don't let it get in the way of gaining quality training and operational guidance as your first year of operation will be your most vulnerable. As someone has allready pointed out you fly Saabs at the moment and I am sure will make fine Dash pilots however don't overestimate yourselves and underestimate the need for some training wheels for a period of time.
Last edited by TAY 611; 18th Oct 2004 at 20:11.
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Well, that worked!!
Should Air Nelson get contract pilots for training their training staff? I don't think there would be too many that would jump up and stamp their foot, As no jobs would be comprimised.
Is it a good idea; yes, I think it has merits. I've done just that in the past.
Do I think they should get permanent jobs over the current staff. No.
Some of you may think that seniority is an out moded way of promotion. Tough, it doesn't affect you.
It was hotly fought for by the staff there. And when it came, it was the first time that the staff could actually plan their life and have a life without bending over for an ungrateful boss at any and every opportunity.
People still have to perform to the required standards for promotion and commands are not given out "Willy-Nilly"
Will they source help for various elements of the introduction? Of course they will. And currently are.
767pilot: Jobs at hospitals are advertised, as such outside applicants are then called for.
I too have been F/O on a jet with more time on type and more Command time than the Capt (who had been in the company 13 odd yrs and it was their first Cmd). But all credit to that person, they sought assistance when required. Plus the training they got was pretty comprehensive.
Let Air Nelson get on with the job. They do a good job as it is and they have plenty of resources to call on if required. And I'm sure they will.
Just don't expect to waltz into a perm. Command.
I don't know if I should laugh or cry......... translated......
Just don't expect to get a permanent job.
Pharknose It will be equipped with the UNS-1E Super FMS.
Should Air Nelson get contract pilots for training their training staff? I don't think there would be too many that would jump up and stamp their foot, As no jobs would be comprimised.
Is it a good idea; yes, I think it has merits. I've done just that in the past.
Do I think they should get permanent jobs over the current staff. No.
Some of you may think that seniority is an out moded way of promotion. Tough, it doesn't affect you.
It was hotly fought for by the staff there. And when it came, it was the first time that the staff could actually plan their life and have a life without bending over for an ungrateful boss at any and every opportunity.
People still have to perform to the required standards for promotion and commands are not given out "Willy-Nilly"
Will they source help for various elements of the introduction? Of course they will. And currently are.
767pilot: Jobs at hospitals are advertised, as such outside applicants are then called for.
I too have been F/O on a jet with more time on type and more Command time than the Capt (who had been in the company 13 odd yrs and it was their first Cmd). But all credit to that person, they sought assistance when required. Plus the training they got was pretty comprehensive.
Let Air Nelson get on with the job. They do a good job as it is and they have plenty of resources to call on if required. And I'm sure they will.
Just don't expect to waltz into a perm. Command.
I don't know if I should laugh or cry......... translated......
Just don't expect to get a permanent job.
Pharknose It will be equipped with the UNS-1E Super FMS.
Last edited by CT7; 21st Oct 2004 at 02:44.
