Skywest To Get DeathStars!
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Tasmania
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EWL,
have never understood the need for lots of multistop flights. Unless you like takeoffs and landings isn't the 'eurocrap' setup far more time and cost-efficient? For example, why would a customer wanting to fly HBA-BNE choose your airline, where they have to stop in DPO, SYD and OOL, over Jetstar or Virgin Blue who fly non-stop?
I remember having a lengthy (but friendly) debate with you a couple of years ago when I suggested that it was viable to operate a non-stop HBA-BNE service daily. Well, two years later, the airlines finally catch on, and we have two airlines, each operating a daily service on that route.
Don't forget Jetstar grew the HBA market by over 40% in one month, so whether you like it or not, there must be some punters out there for which Jetstar is exactly what they want!
Very interested in your views however EWL. I, like you, find aircraft scheduling fascinating. I have never worked in that area, but like you, I believe I could come up with schedule patterns a thousand times better than the ones those clowns at Jetstar devise!
have never understood the need for lots of multistop flights. Unless you like takeoffs and landings isn't the 'eurocrap' setup far more time and cost-efficient? For example, why would a customer wanting to fly HBA-BNE choose your airline, where they have to stop in DPO, SYD and OOL, over Jetstar or Virgin Blue who fly non-stop?
I remember having a lengthy (but friendly) debate with you a couple of years ago when I suggested that it was viable to operate a non-stop HBA-BNE service daily. Well, two years later, the airlines finally catch on, and we have two airlines, each operating a daily service on that route.
Don't forget Jetstar grew the HBA market by over 40% in one month, so whether you like it or not, there must be some punters out there for which Jetstar is exactly what they want!
Very interested in your views however EWL. I, like you, find aircraft scheduling fascinating. I have never worked in that area, but like you, I believe I could come up with schedule patterns a thousand times better than the ones those clowns at Jetstar devise!
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Devonport Tasmania Australia
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Hiya Hobay
The multi market thingy seems to work well, as you are just using one aeroplane under one flight number to service multiple port pairs.
Take the old EW74 as an example. That served HBA DPO (weekends only because of Dallas at Scare Tasmainia) HBA SYD - HBA OOL - HBA BNE - HBA CNS then DPO SYD - DPO OOL - DPO BNE - DPO CNS and SYD OOL - SYD BNE - SYD CNS and OOL BNE (limited interest) OOL CNS plus finally BNE CNS. These permutations are just the one areoplane and do not take into consideration the oncarriage to other ports ex intermediate cities.
The punters did not seem to mind the shuffling as the fares were right, and we carried a fair bit of HBA DPO MEL traffic, transhipping off the F28 onto F27 and WNY SYD traffic doing the reverse equipment change.
As for non stop services, the game has changed in that regard, with the Eenie Weenie theory on steroids forced on the punters, so some rules no longer apply. I would however like to see some of the P & L figures on these routes.
Many of my clients are rejecting the "recheck ya bags - wait at least 90 minutes for a change of flight theory, and choose to fly ex DPO and pay for the privelege. One of my bigger Corporates on the Gold Coast sends their passengers to Brisvegas or books Virgin so their staff have a chance to work on flights with guaranteed seating together.
The niche for a cheeky new incumbent is definitely there and I am sure the niche would have been filled if not for people dressed like angry sofas flying aeoplanes into buildings. That shagged a lot of forward planning.
I still do think the old pattern would work, and would provide something for the incumbents to think about.
best regards
EWL
The multi market thingy seems to work well, as you are just using one aeroplane under one flight number to service multiple port pairs.
Take the old EW74 as an example. That served HBA DPO (weekends only because of Dallas at Scare Tasmainia) HBA SYD - HBA OOL - HBA BNE - HBA CNS then DPO SYD - DPO OOL - DPO BNE - DPO CNS and SYD OOL - SYD BNE - SYD CNS and OOL BNE (limited interest) OOL CNS plus finally BNE CNS. These permutations are just the one areoplane and do not take into consideration the oncarriage to other ports ex intermediate cities.
The punters did not seem to mind the shuffling as the fares were right, and we carried a fair bit of HBA DPO MEL traffic, transhipping off the F28 onto F27 and WNY SYD traffic doing the reverse equipment change.
As for non stop services, the game has changed in that regard, with the Eenie Weenie theory on steroids forced on the punters, so some rules no longer apply. I would however like to see some of the P & L figures on these routes.
Many of my clients are rejecting the "recheck ya bags - wait at least 90 minutes for a change of flight theory, and choose to fly ex DPO and pay for the privelege. One of my bigger Corporates on the Gold Coast sends their passengers to Brisvegas or books Virgin so their staff have a chance to work on flights with guaranteed seating together.
The niche for a cheeky new incumbent is definitely there and I am sure the niche would have been filled if not for people dressed like angry sofas flying aeoplanes into buildings. That shagged a lot of forward planning.
I still do think the old pattern would work, and would provide something for the incumbents to think about.
best regards
EWL
Join Date: Jun 1999
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Eastwest,
Have you spoken to Alliance Airlines, according to reports they have another 4-6 F100's arriving? They could be the answer to filling the void. I believe their standard seat pitch is 32", which is more than any other "Y" class in OZ offer's.
Have you spoken to Alliance Airlines, according to reports they have another 4-6 F100's arriving? They could be the answer to filling the void. I believe their standard seat pitch is 32", which is more than any other "Y" class in OZ offer's.
Join Date: Mar 2004
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EWL
At the end of the day a new niche scheduke may suit some. However the majority will chase cheap airfares of which the big 3 can change at wim.
Australians once again will show no support for a new airline. No chance!
At the end of the day a new niche scheduke may suit some. However the majority will chase cheap airfares of which the big 3 can change at wim.
Australians once again will show no support for a new airline. No chance!
Join Date: Aug 2001
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G'Day EWL,
I think Adama is to quickly dismissive of the ideas you put forward.
I for one (and I am certainly not of the "Wealthy" class), would certainly travel on a Full-Service Airline if given the choice, having had a taste of the alternative.
The obvious factor that would determine whether people went full-service or the Virgin/Jetstar route is not IMHO who is the cheapest, but rather whether the difference in price between the two is what most would consider to be reasonable.
If for instance it cost $300 one way (economy) from Melbourne to Brisbane on Virgin/Jetstar, yet it cost $400 with a full-service carrier with its allocated seating, meals etc, then I would be more than happy to travel Full-Service.
A choice of Bussiness class seating would no doubt attract those that enjoy this class of travel.
Whether or not a full-service carrier could compete, would depend upon many factors, most of which a LCC would also have in common, the big difference would be finding a price differential acceptable to the public at large which would make them feel they got a bargain as well as the full service for only a 'Few Dollars More'.
Hans.
I think Adama is to quickly dismissive of the ideas you put forward.
I for one (and I am certainly not of the "Wealthy" class), would certainly travel on a Full-Service Airline if given the choice, having had a taste of the alternative.
The obvious factor that would determine whether people went full-service or the Virgin/Jetstar route is not IMHO who is the cheapest, but rather whether the difference in price between the two is what most would consider to be reasonable.
If for instance it cost $300 one way (economy) from Melbourne to Brisbane on Virgin/Jetstar, yet it cost $400 with a full-service carrier with its allocated seating, meals etc, then I would be more than happy to travel Full-Service.
A choice of Bussiness class seating would no doubt attract those that enjoy this class of travel.
Whether or not a full-service carrier could compete, would depend upon many factors, most of which a LCC would also have in common, the big difference would be finding a price differential acceptable to the public at large which would make them feel they got a bargain as well as the full service for only a 'Few Dollars More'.
Hans.
Join Date: Apr 2000
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F
Adama
Good scheduling will beat cheap pricing 50% of the time, and that is all you need to do.
There is a portion of the domestic market that has crawled off the firefly bus, and is now flying. They are not, never were and never will be the target for a full service airline.
High disposable income markets like Hamilton Island and the Gold and Sunshine Coasts are screaming as they have lost the full service middleman, and the big loser is Jetstar. Virgin is doing rather well ex Cooly due to seat allocation and limited oncarriage and baggage transhipment. Try getting a seat on the token (shut the local pollies up) rat mainline service and see how you go!
The slot is there if Skywest and/or Alliance can weather the initial predatory pricing. As for J class - I am not sure. On a 100 seat aeroplane maybe one row, using "Morganiseable" seats as used in the TN DC9 - 727 fleets a million years ago may be the way to go.
Thirty percent of the domestic market has been told to change their ways and live with it. 100% of them are saying no way Jose. What a perfect opportunity.
Hans Solo - may the force (or farce) be with you.
I am buying AD75 J class to get my fat butt to SIN and DPS next month, and am in a position to afford it at the discount level. I could have chosen Y class and saved a bucket but will not. I am far from alone, and could go to meetings on Jetstar ex LST, but choose not to and fly QF link ex DPO.
We do indeed live in interesting times.
Best all
EWL
Good scheduling will beat cheap pricing 50% of the time, and that is all you need to do.
There is a portion of the domestic market that has crawled off the firefly bus, and is now flying. They are not, never were and never will be the target for a full service airline.
High disposable income markets like Hamilton Island and the Gold and Sunshine Coasts are screaming as they have lost the full service middleman, and the big loser is Jetstar. Virgin is doing rather well ex Cooly due to seat allocation and limited oncarriage and baggage transhipment. Try getting a seat on the token (shut the local pollies up) rat mainline service and see how you go!
The slot is there if Skywest and/or Alliance can weather the initial predatory pricing. As for J class - I am not sure. On a 100 seat aeroplane maybe one row, using "Morganiseable" seats as used in the TN DC9 - 727 fleets a million years ago may be the way to go.
Thirty percent of the domestic market has been told to change their ways and live with it. 100% of them are saying no way Jose. What a perfect opportunity.
Hans Solo - may the force (or farce) be with you.
I am buying AD75 J class to get my fat butt to SIN and DPS next month, and am in a position to afford it at the discount level. I could have chosen Y class and saved a bucket but will not. I am far from alone, and could go to meetings on Jetstar ex LST, but choose not to and fly QF link ex DPO.
We do indeed live in interesting times.
Best all
EWL
Join Date: Mar 2004
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Hans Solo would have to disagree with you on that one matey.
The Australian publics mentality is that they will go for the cheapest airfare they can possibly afford.With the cheapness of Vb creeping in to the West i believe the going is going to get extremely difficult for operators like XR.
The average Aussie doesnt distinguish between what is a safe operator,a full service operator but simply want to go from A to B when is convenient and what is the cheapest.
The glamorous days of first,business and full service economy are gone in Australian Aviation forever, as are the financial rewards of pursuing a career as an airline pilot outside of working for Australias major carrier.
The Australian publics mentality is that they will go for the cheapest airfare they can possibly afford.With the cheapness of Vb creeping in to the West i believe the going is going to get extremely difficult for operators like XR.
The average Aussie doesnt distinguish between what is a safe operator,a full service operator but simply want to go from A to B when is convenient and what is the cheapest.
The glamorous days of first,business and full service economy are gone in Australian Aviation forever, as are the financial rewards of pursuing a career as an airline pilot outside of working for Australias major carrier.
Hans you must be a restauranteur's dream customer!
If you did a side by side comparison of the Virgin Blue product against the QANTAS mainline product - on the aeroplane that is - I reckon that the only MAJOR difference (comparing economy with economy) is that the food and softdrinks (and on some services the booze) is free on QF where you pay for it on Virgin and video programming. The seatpitch is the same and the audio entertainment is essentially the same.
If you agree that those are the major differences between QF and DJ economy products - would you be prepared to pay $100 for an airline meal and a small can of coke?
I accept that there are some differences outside the aeroplane QF club, valet parking, upgrades to business class with points, FF miles etc, however these would not add up to $100 in value - for me anyway.
If the difference was 10-20 dollars you are talking a different situation, but for $100 each way or $200 or more return I would go DJ if I was paying.
If someone else was paying it again would be a different story - I would then tend to go for the more convenient flight - and pocket some FF miles along the way!
Alliance and Skywest are in a no mans land situation - they are not LCC's, they are sort of regionals - but not quite majors - they have a niche market that they probably serve very well - but they will never be serious competition for Virgin and QF (or even Jetstar) as they don't have the route structure or connections etc.
If you did a side by side comparison of the Virgin Blue product against the QANTAS mainline product - on the aeroplane that is - I reckon that the only MAJOR difference (comparing economy with economy) is that the food and softdrinks (and on some services the booze) is free on QF where you pay for it on Virgin and video programming. The seatpitch is the same and the audio entertainment is essentially the same.
If you agree that those are the major differences between QF and DJ economy products - would you be prepared to pay $100 for an airline meal and a small can of coke?
I accept that there are some differences outside the aeroplane QF club, valet parking, upgrades to business class with points, FF miles etc, however these would not add up to $100 in value - for me anyway.
If the difference was 10-20 dollars you are talking a different situation, but for $100 each way or $200 or more return I would go DJ if I was paying.
If someone else was paying it again would be a different story - I would then tend to go for the more convenient flight - and pocket some FF miles along the way!
Alliance and Skywest are in a no mans land situation - they are not LCC's, they are sort of regionals - but not quite majors - they have a niche market that they probably serve very well - but they will never be serious competition for Virgin and QF (or even Jetstar) as they don't have the route structure or connections etc.
rumours of xr getting a320's may stem from their link with cvc in the takeover stakes. cvc has links to a chinese a320 operator. anyway, highly unlikely me thinks.
but f100's with skywest written in chinese characters, that is more of a possibility.
but f100's with skywest written in chinese characters, that is more of a possibility.
