A mature debate........
I know the individual involved and happen to think he's a pretty good bloke and a good pilot.
The points he raises, fartsock, are all valid points as he and his approximate seniority colleagues on the classic have been pretty royally shafted the last few years.
Forced to take leave, forced to take long service leave (in blocks of two weeks which are pretty useless to anyone), forced to take NEXT years leave prior to actually earning it....the list goes on.
And as he states, it's all because engineering parked the aeroplanes (-EBW and -EBV) with roughly 12 months remaining until they were due for a D-check. Why do you think John Borghetti is Manager-QANTAS Airlines instead of David Forsyth?
And, as a Classic Captain, he is paid less than a -400 F/O. His choice I know but it does tend to get the blood up somewhat.
So before you use his posts on another site to forward your agenda, whatever it may be, on this site, have a read of what he's written and have a think about what it would have done to you and your family over the last two years and think that maybe, just maybe, he has a point.
P.S. It also took a fair bit of courage to do that on Qrewroom. I bet you the phone will ring Monday morning at 9.05.
The points he raises, fartsock, are all valid points as he and his approximate seniority colleagues on the classic have been pretty royally shafted the last few years.
Forced to take leave, forced to take long service leave (in blocks of two weeks which are pretty useless to anyone), forced to take NEXT years leave prior to actually earning it....the list goes on.
And as he states, it's all because engineering parked the aeroplanes (-EBW and -EBV) with roughly 12 months remaining until they were due for a D-check. Why do you think John Borghetti is Manager-QANTAS Airlines instead of David Forsyth?
And, as a Classic Captain, he is paid less than a -400 F/O. His choice I know but it does tend to get the blood up somewhat.
So before you use his posts on another site to forward your agenda, whatever it may be, on this site, have a read of what he's written and have a think about what it would have done to you and your family over the last two years and think that maybe, just maybe, he has a point.
P.S. It also took a fair bit of courage to do that on Qrewroom. I bet you the phone will ring Monday morning at 9.05.
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I totally agree. The guy has a right to put his opinion on Qroom, and he makes valid points.
However its a debate taking place on Qroom and no purpose is served by serving it up here to people who have no idea what is going on in this debate, and who have no business with it anyhow.
I commend the bloke for having the el grande cohones to put it on Qroom, as vindictive management will give him a serve no doubt.
Its a pity Qroom seldom has any serious comment for fear of management. Its suffers censorship from management. "We don't like your comments so we will ring you with abuse or veiled threats."
However its a debate taking place on Qroom and no purpose is served by serving it up here to people who have no idea what is going on in this debate, and who have no business with it anyhow.
I commend the bloke for having the el grande cohones to put it on Qroom, as vindictive management will give him a serve no doubt.
Its a pity Qroom seldom has any serious comment for fear of management. Its suffers censorship from management. "We don't like your comments so we will ring you with abuse or veiled threats."
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FS. An excellent post, and I will endorse DA's comments. But it's the tip of the iceberg. 767 problems still to be fixed. The short haul EBA is nothing short of a flight safety hazard. Former TAA (read Australian) pilots are still treated as second class citizens. The classic is just a sh1t fight. The 330 has significant teething problems in so far as seniority, bidding etc.
But so long as senior 400 captains have their parking looked after, then who cares, right AIPA? Well, look out guys, this is just about to explode beneath you. Your self serving actions have gone on for too long.
VOTE NO.
But so long as senior 400 captains have their parking looked after, then who cares, right AIPA? Well, look out guys, this is just about to explode beneath you. Your self serving actions have gone on for too long.
VOTE NO.
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I don't disagree that the classic has been shafted.
But the classic has at least two (that I can think of) pilots / FEO who are on the COM. If they have not stood up for their fleet then there is not much anyone else can do.
But telling your fellow pilots to 'get stuffed' is hardly the way to engender support.
At the end of the day, that Capt is an 'A' scaler who will drift onto the -400 without a care - he will not be affected by the Jetstar vote. He is voting 'no' out of spite, which, IMHO, is purile in the extreme
Most pilots junior to him will be screwed in the long run by the Jetstar - that is the issue.
As a B767 Capt, I could argue that this deal does not affect me, therefore I will vote no also. But talking to my F/O's over recent weeks, most will be voting yes, not because they endorse low pay, but because they believe that by staying divided we give the company the ability to play the two pilot groups off against one another in a "race to the bottom"
But the classic has at least two (that I can think of) pilots / FEO who are on the COM. If they have not stood up for their fleet then there is not much anyone else can do.
But telling your fellow pilots to 'get stuffed' is hardly the way to engender support.
At the end of the day, that Capt is an 'A' scaler who will drift onto the -400 without a care - he will not be affected by the Jetstar vote. He is voting 'no' out of spite, which, IMHO, is purile in the extreme
Most pilots junior to him will be screwed in the long run by the Jetstar - that is the issue.
As a B767 Capt, I could argue that this deal does not affect me, therefore I will vote no also. But talking to my F/O's over recent weeks, most will be voting yes, not because they endorse low pay, but because they believe that by staying divided we give the company the ability to play the two pilot groups off against one another in a "race to the bottom"
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FS,
We all seem too busy 'stuffing' everyone to create actual, tangible, constructive and positive bargaining and results. Are we all too caught up with our own little agendas to rationalise any sort of progress?
It seems a shame that to create unity of pilot bodies (or within pilot bodies), we feel a need to bribe, denegrate, label and slander each other.
Seems to be a bit of a continuing tradition!
Lancer
We all seem too busy 'stuffing' everyone to create actual, tangible, constructive and positive bargaining and results. Are we all too caught up with our own little agendas to rationalise any sort of progress?
It seems a shame that to create unity of pilot bodies (or within pilot bodies), we feel a need to bribe, denegrate, label and slander each other.
Seems to be a bit of a continuing tradition!
Lancer
Last edited by *Lancer*; 6th Sep 2004 at 03:56.
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Yep, thats pretty much it.
Qantas these days is getting more and more like GA every day. The dough is just a bit better thats all. For the time being that is!
This MOU is a lose lose situation. If it gets up we lose and if it doesn't we still lose. That's why the company really doesn't give a toss either way.
It will be just another degradation to our T&Cs that will stand in the queue with all the other stuffups and adverse outcomes we have suffered in the past few years. Still, its small beer compared to what Ryanair guys have to put up with.
Where did that bloke who runs Jetstar come from?
Qantas these days is getting more and more like GA every day. The dough is just a bit better thats all. For the time being that is!
This MOU is a lose lose situation. If it gets up we lose and if it doesn't we still lose. That's why the company really doesn't give a toss either way.
It will be just another degradation to our T&Cs that will stand in the queue with all the other stuffups and adverse outcomes we have suffered in the past few years. Still, its small beer compared to what Ryanair guys have to put up with.
Where did that bloke who runs Jetstar come from?
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MoFO,
You are STILL at it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
After your last chastising about your STUPID comments on the Jeppesen threat, one would have thought that one woukld have learned some humility.
Go away son and finish high school before any further contributions to professional aviation.
You are STILL at it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
After your last chastising about your STUPID comments on the Jeppesen threat, one would have thought that one woukld have learned some humility.
Go away son and finish high school before any further contributions to professional aviation.
Nunc est bibendum
Lancer, I think the point FS was making is that he will vote 'yes' despite his initial consideration.
A 'no' vote is looking at the next two years and sending a 'message' to someone (anyone!). A 'yes' vote is looking at the next fifteen and making the best of some bad moves by 'us' (as defined in Qrewroom) and working like mad for the next 10 to ensure that it can never happen again with a united group of QF pilots. Voting 'no' guarantees that we won't be united. 'Yes' at least gives us a bloody good shot. Anyway, I've made the rest of my points on Qrewroom. They're on page 2 and no one has yet answered the question about 'what then'.
Finally, sure Qrewroom is 'viewed' by people in management. I think that can be a good thing at times. I can guarantee that PPRUNE is as well and a few of us are even known by our PPRUNE handles in QF- geez, it ain't even hard in my case!
That said, do we really have to do this here? The 'discussion' seems to be going on all right on Qrewroom and whilst I don't have a major problem with discussing the issue here (although my preference is not to), surely keeping our laundry 'in house' is at least not advertising things to the wider world.
Finally FS, whilst you and I may be voting the same way, I'm not convinced I'd like you cutting and pasting something of mine that is essentially on a 'private' web site in such a public domain as this. Probably shouldn't do it to others either!
A 'no' vote is looking at the next two years and sending a 'message' to someone (anyone!). A 'yes' vote is looking at the next fifteen and making the best of some bad moves by 'us' (as defined in Qrewroom) and working like mad for the next 10 to ensure that it can never happen again with a united group of QF pilots. Voting 'no' guarantees that we won't be united. 'Yes' at least gives us a bloody good shot. Anyway, I've made the rest of my points on Qrewroom. They're on page 2 and no one has yet answered the question about 'what then'.
Finally, sure Qrewroom is 'viewed' by people in management. I think that can be a good thing at times. I can guarantee that PPRUNE is as well and a few of us are even known by our PPRUNE handles in QF- geez, it ain't even hard in my case!
That said, do we really have to do this here? The 'discussion' seems to be going on all right on Qrewroom and whilst I don't have a major problem with discussing the issue here (although my preference is not to), surely keeping our laundry 'in house' is at least not advertising things to the wider world.Finally FS, whilst you and I may be voting the same way, I'm not convinced I'd like you cutting and pasting something of mine that is essentially on a 'private' web site in such a public domain as this. Probably shouldn't do it to others either!
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What about Jetconnect, Eastern or Sunstate? Does AIPA wait till they get wide bodies and then they too are enlisted into the fold?
All of the QF pilots should be under the one umbrella - that will help secure the next 15 years.
All of the QF pilots should be under the one umbrella - that will help secure the next 15 years.
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Looking in from the outside, I can not under stand why ALL QANTAS pilots are not under the same umbrella!!
From an industrial relations stand point it is absolutely ludicrous to have any division between a group of employees.
Cheers, HH.
From an industrial relations stand point it is absolutely ludicrous to have any division between a group of employees.
Cheers, HH.
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Fartsock, you're joking......right?
Mature debate?
Are you really having a go at someone, after your pitiful performance 18 months ago when you slandered your colleagues who went to AO?!
Here's a tip fartsock. You reap what you sow. And you have sown some pretty ordinary seeds, my friend.
So, in future, before you have a go at someone about immature or irrational or unkind or unprofessional or slanderous comment, think about the rubbish you wrote about your QF colleagues, and hang your head in shame. Hypocrite.
Look forward to running into you at Fatties. I always check to see if you're there.......
Mature debate?
Are you really having a go at someone, after your pitiful performance 18 months ago when you slandered your colleagues who went to AO?!
Here's a tip fartsock. You reap what you sow. And you have sown some pretty ordinary seeds, my friend.
So, in future, before you have a go at someone about immature or irrational or unkind or unprofessional or slanderous comment, think about the rubbish you wrote about your QF colleagues, and hang your head in shame. Hypocrite.
Look forward to running into you at Fatties. I always check to see if you're there.......
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FBS.
You are right.
There is no question that with the benefit pf 20/20 hindsight, the best thing that could have happened is that the AO flying remained within the QF mainline pilot body.
I have made my peace with those who count up your way - ask around.
If you still want a fist fight at fatties, happy to oblige - wont help the jetsat situation though.
FS
You are right.
There is no question that with the benefit pf 20/20 hindsight, the best thing that could have happened is that the AO flying remained within the QF mainline pilot body.
I have made my peace with those who count up your way - ask around.
If you still want a fist fight at fatties, happy to oblige - wont help the jetsat situation though.
FS
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I'm a terrible fighter, fartsock.
Hypocricy? I don't like that.
Bullies who aren't prepared to put a name to their immature and unprofessional views? I don't like that either.
Reasoned argument? I like that.
Make your point, fartsock; but do me and all the others who are sick of your sanctimonious repartee a favour.......don't make any judgements on another pilot's self-indulgent and immature posts, whilst engaging in similar behaviour.
It leaves a sour aftertaste.
Hypocricy? I don't like that.
Bullies who aren't prepared to put a name to their immature and unprofessional views? I don't like that either.
Reasoned argument? I like that.
Make your point, fartsock; but do me and all the others who are sick of your sanctimonious repartee a favour.......don't make any judgements on another pilot's self-indulgent and immature posts, whilst engaging in similar behaviour.
It leaves a sour aftertaste.
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The thread title is "a mature debate". It certainly seems to have lost some "maturity".........
I don't believe it appropriate to re-post or even quote extracts from an Airline's internal bulletin board, particularly if the PPRuNe user is not the original author.
A bit of maturity please .... otherwise the thread will be locked or moved.
Woomera
I don't believe it appropriate to re-post or even quote extracts from an Airline's internal bulletin board, particularly if the PPRuNe user is not the original author.
A bit of maturity please .... otherwise the thread will be locked or moved.
Woomera
Nunc est bibendum
Fartsock, if you haven't seen it already, check out Qrewroom and have a look in General Discussion under "First Class idiot responds- a right of reply". If you didn't get the hint here, I'd say that you'd have to consider yourself TOLD!
