News blamed for Ansett collapse
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Well TNO I'm pleased to see you have finally agreed with me about the demise of AN, re my post of 22nd August.
One wonders why you took some 2 weeks to acknowledge the facts that I stated that AN was on the way down from the day Abeles got control of the board.
I do whole heartedly agree with your post, very pleased to see re '89 that you acknowledged the fact THAT A GREAT MANY experienced pilots walked, replaced by weeelll.
Rgds FarQ2
One wonders why you took some 2 weeks to acknowledge the facts that I stated that AN was on the way down from the day Abeles got control of the board.
I do whole heartedly agree with your post, very pleased to see re '89 that you acknowledged the fact THAT A GREAT MANY experienced pilots walked, replaced by weeelll.
Rgds FarQ2
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I`m glad you chaps find my return irritating. It is just further proof that when KM continues with his boring #$%& scab line it gets up people`s noses.
I did undertake not to comment on KM`s penchant for violence nor on Romeo Alpha Tango`s `illiteration` and I haven`t done so.
Maybe this will be my last??
Obie, you are very observant. I had enjoyed a few rum and cokes prior to my last post, and just couldn`t resist. Alcohol breaks down the inhibitions and resistance. I thought I may be able to offer something on the company structure etc.
And I certainly have no difficulty with the decision makin g process, unlike KM alleges he did back in 89. I knew what I had to do, no mistake, and so did he, but they put the stoppers on him. I won`t mention why, in accordance with my undertaking.
I did undertake not to comment on KM`s penchant for violence nor on Romeo Alpha Tango`s `illiteration` and I haven`t done so.
Maybe this will be my last??
Obie, you are very observant. I had enjoyed a few rum and cokes prior to my last post, and just couldn`t resist. Alcohol breaks down the inhibitions and resistance. I thought I may be able to offer something on the company structure etc.
And I certainly have no difficulty with the decision makin g process, unlike KM alleges he did back in 89. I knew what I had to do, no mistake, and so did he, but they put the stoppers on him. I won`t mention why, in accordance with my undertaking.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Quite a fine summary, TNO, although (as you undoubtedly by now realise) I must disagree with your final sentence in point #2, re the AFAP - the opportunity to NEGOTIATE with the pilot body was flatly rejected outright by Abeles & Co - you must remember the interview on 60 Minutes, in which Abeles said he would rather lose the airline than negotiate with the Federation. It happened, but not in his time.
As expected there has been no PM to me by ys120fz, which was totally expected and in accordance with his history of not having the guts to do things in the open.
As expected there has been no PM to me by ys120fz, which was totally expected and in accordance with his history of not having the guts to do things in the open.
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FQ2 - I have re-read your post of 22Aug and, yes, we have points in common, I agree. The title of the thread is "News blamed for Ansett collapse", and I have been trying to point out that News was not the only, and certainly not the final, cause of the demise.
As I said before, many parts came together to cause the collapse, - the "Swiss Cheese" philosophy at play again? - but no ONE part was the single cause.
Yes, I agree, we lost a great deal of experience in'89, and the one commodity which cannot be taught is experience, but I'm afraid that yourself, Kap, and all the other '89-ers who combined in the form of your representatives to cause such damage to the company are held in the same regard, BY ME, and I speak for no-one else, as you hold those who took your places when you resigned from AN's employment. The reasons for this may be debated until the cows come home, but the facts are that you left the company bereft of the capability to fulfil its obligations, thereby putting the rest of us at risk of losing our jobs. I understand all the arguments put forward by your group, I've heard them for the past 15 years, I simply disagree with your slant on the situation.
Kap - I thank you for your comments, over the time of this debate I have mostly experienced at least courtesy from you, and for that I'm grateful. We will never resolve our differences wrt the '89 AFAP, but we can, at least, be civil on here. Yes, I well remember the 60 Minutes program, and again I remember what transpired, but I still say that you, through your representatives, brought the wrath of the AN management and the government on yourselves. YOU provided them with the means to metaphorically knock seven bells out of you by your stance and approach, and for the intervening 15 years you have tried to maintain the moral high ground wrt the "sc***" as you refer to them.
As for ys120fz, that is a matter between you and him, I want no part of it. I will say, though, that anyone who enjoys a couple of rum 'n' cokes can't be ALL bad!! That's my favoured tipple, when a White Burgundy isn't available!
Kind regards,
TheNightOwl.
As I said before, many parts came together to cause the collapse, - the "Swiss Cheese" philosophy at play again? - but no ONE part was the single cause.
Yes, I agree, we lost a great deal of experience in'89, and the one commodity which cannot be taught is experience, but I'm afraid that yourself, Kap, and all the other '89-ers who combined in the form of your representatives to cause such damage to the company are held in the same regard, BY ME, and I speak for no-one else, as you hold those who took your places when you resigned from AN's employment. The reasons for this may be debated until the cows come home, but the facts are that you left the company bereft of the capability to fulfil its obligations, thereby putting the rest of us at risk of losing our jobs. I understand all the arguments put forward by your group, I've heard them for the past 15 years, I simply disagree with your slant on the situation.
Kap - I thank you for your comments, over the time of this debate I have mostly experienced at least courtesy from you, and for that I'm grateful. We will never resolve our differences wrt the '89 AFAP, but we can, at least, be civil on here. Yes, I well remember the 60 Minutes program, and again I remember what transpired, but I still say that you, through your representatives, brought the wrath of the AN management and the government on yourselves. YOU provided them with the means to metaphorically knock seven bells out of you by your stance and approach, and for the intervening 15 years you have tried to maintain the moral high ground wrt the "sc***" as you refer to them.
As for ys120fz, that is a matter between you and him, I want no part of it. I will say, though, that anyone who enjoys a couple of rum 'n' cokes can't be ALL bad!! That's my favoured tipple, when a White Burgundy isn't available!
Kind regards,
TheNightOwl.
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So, just to summarise, for those who don't know the Owl as well as I and others do...
what he's saying is ...I hate all ex Ansett pilots except the scabs! And, of course, the scabs consist of local as well as foreign imports that has an affinity with.
Just keep that in mind when you read his sick, biassed rantings that amuse most of us who know him.
Best regards
amos2
what he's saying is ...I hate all ex Ansett pilots except the scabs! And, of course, the scabs consist of local as well as foreign imports that has an affinity with.
Just keep that in mind when you read his sick, biassed rantings that amuse most of us who know him.
Best regards
amos2
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No, amos, I don't hate anyone, not even you, although I have to admit you push me close to it at times. Hate is a futile emotion which achieves nothing for either side in any argument. What I dislike, since you will never achieve the level of discernment to understand my posts, is the continuing attitude of people like yourself who propagate the hatred of the "scabs", under the guise of the righteousness of your cause. In my view, once again, it was an unworthy and unworkable cause, an exorbitant demand and NOT, despite the protestations of KapM, et al, an "ambit claim" in any way. It was a confrontation between the AFAP and AN management, engendered by your representatives for, supposedly, the reason of restoration of the status and salary-levels of pilots in the Aus aviation industry. You didn't care who got hurt in the process, then played into the unscrupulous hands of Hawke/Abeles/Kelty and painted yourselves into a corner from which they refused to let you escape. You have only yourselves to blame, in my view, "as ye sow, so shall ye reap"!!!
As for bias, of course I am, biased against stupidity and selfish thoughlessness in any form. Idealistic, I accept, but that's how I feel.
For the elucidation of other readers of this, I should make clear the reason for the antipathy between us - it stems from a discussion we had at the AN Sim Centre during the time the Centre was being picketed by the Engine Shop people at Garden Drive. Amos believes that we at the Centre should have been on strike as well, supporting the Engine Shop people in their picketing. He does not accept that we had a valid reason for continuing to work, in that we were the only department still bringing in earnings for what was left of the company, but believes that solidarity should have been paramount.
We will NEVER agree, amos, that I accept, but I will not descend to your level of vitriol, nor shall I respond to you again.
TheNightOwl.
As for bias, of course I am, biased against stupidity and selfish thoughlessness in any form. Idealistic, I accept, but that's how I feel.
For the elucidation of other readers of this, I should make clear the reason for the antipathy between us - it stems from a discussion we had at the AN Sim Centre during the time the Centre was being picketed by the Engine Shop people at Garden Drive. Amos believes that we at the Centre should have been on strike as well, supporting the Engine Shop people in their picketing. He does not accept that we had a valid reason for continuing to work, in that we were the only department still bringing in earnings for what was left of the company, but believes that solidarity should have been paramount.
We will NEVER agree, amos, that I accept, but I will not descend to your level of vitriol, nor shall I respond to you again.
TheNightOwl.
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So, once again, just to summarise, the owl is still saying he hates all ex Ansett pilots, except the scabs, even tho he says this is not so!
He is, and always has been, known as a "scab lover". Which is why we have no respect for his opinions on this pilots forum.
Most of us have moved on in recent years to bigger and better things. Since Owl's beloved Ansett folded he seems to have "not moved on" as others have done. Why is this so?
Why does he continue to attempt to denigrate the profession of airline pilots? Perhaps we have left him behind?
The sooner Owl joins his ex engineer mates on another forum and stops trying to mix it with us, the better it will be!
Kind regards
amos2
He is, and always has been, known as a "scab lover". Which is why we have no respect for his opinions on this pilots forum.
Most of us have moved on in recent years to bigger and better things. Since Owl's beloved Ansett folded he seems to have "not moved on" as others have done. Why is this so?
Why does he continue to attempt to denigrate the profession of airline pilots? Perhaps we have left him behind?
The sooner Owl joins his ex engineer mates on another forum and stops trying to mix it with us, the better it will be!
Kind regards
amos2
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anos and nutowl
You two "butches"* should just get married and be done with it instead of bitching constantly.
It's like listening to Felix and Oscar moaning at each other but never moving apart.
* I use the word "b!tches" in the rhetorical sense, of course, not as an insult.
instead of bitching constantly.It's like listening to Felix and Oscar moaning at each other but never moving apart.
* I use the word "b!tches" in the rhetorical sense, of course, not as an insult.
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I go away for 3 days, and look at all the fun I missed.
I don't think ys120fz (BTW - that's a small radio controlled aircraft engine for those who need to know - maybe that is all he/she/it flies these days?) understands. As expected he/she/it seems to dwell in his/her/its own compunction about the action he/she/it took during 1989. He/she/it lives up to character as expected.
Whilst (ah, is that correct grammar?) I do not always agree with TNO, his view is HIS view, and he is not frightened to have his say, no matter who (correct?) it seems to offend or titilate. He doesn't need to sink to critisizing one's grammar.
I don't think ys120fz (BTW - that's a small radio controlled aircraft engine for those who need to know - maybe that is all he/she/it flies these days?) understands. As expected he/she/it seems to dwell in his/her/its own compunction about the action he/she/it took during 1989. He/she/it lives up to character as expected.
Whilst (ah, is that correct grammar?) I do not always agree with TNO, his view is HIS view, and he is not frightened to have his say, no matter who (correct?) it seems to offend or titilate. He doesn't need to sink to critisizing one's grammar.
