News blamed for Ansett collapse
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On a sunny afternoon at Breakfast Creek..
Ralph and Kapn M are at a table in beer garden. 15 empty schooner glasses await collection by the barkeep on the table in front of them. The usual topics for this sort of afternoon have been covered; footy, politics, lies about how many hosties we've bedded.. The topic of recent pprune topics comes up:
Ralph: "look, mate, I dont know why you persist in calling me a scab. I was'n' even there!'
Kapn: "Well, you always contradic' (hic) everything I say and call me a liar"
Ralph:"I wouldn't say you're actually a liar but somtimes I(burp) think your slant on things differs from wha' happ'ned"
Kapn: "F#$% you"
Ralph:" Well F3$%^& you too"
Kap: "Scab"
Ralph:"Liar"
Kapn M punches Ralph in the nose and knocks him off his chair. Ralph gets up and smashes a bar-stool accoss Ms' teeth and then laughs "Ha! that teach ya". M gets up yelling "Muthaf$%^a" then kicks Ralph in the balls and the two of them fall thru a glass panel locked in a fist flailing embrace into the bar. 2 VB hosties gush with delight. When the police arrive, Ralph is strangling M with the pool-ball triangle as M tries to stuff the broken end of a cue up Ralphs' ar5e..
At the courthouse..
Police Prosecutor: ".. affray, assault, indecent language, wilful destruction of propery.. Your worship, these two were as drunk as judges".
His Worship: "Don't you mean as drunk as Lords?"
Prosecutor:"Yes m'lord"
His worship(hopefully):"So what is this pea prune thing where you met? Is it some kind of dietary health club?"
Prosecutor: "Your worship, it is an internet message and chat board where aviation related topics are discussed".
His Worship:"Internet?"
Prosecutor:" Your Honour, a recent invention utilising a computer and telephone.."
His Worship(curtly):" Yes, quite! Well, what do you two have to say?"
Ralph(squeeking slightly): "Sorry"
M: "Sorry"
Magistrate: "Now kiss and make up".
Ralph and M together: "NO WAY"
M: "You expect me to kiss the face only a Mother could love?"
Ralph:"Cruel and unusual punishment, Sir! He looks like he's been trying to eat a chair!"
His lordship: "50 pounds in the poor box, each and throw them out. Case dismissed"
Prosecutor: "Pounds, Sir? We've had decimal currency since 1966".
His Worship: "Eh?.. Hmm. court adjorned for lunch and my afternoon nap" (bangs gavel and shuffles out).
Outside..
Ralph: "well see ya tomorrow on pprune"
Kapn M : "Yeah see ya mate"
(Curtain falls, pprune theme song cuts in, lights fade..)
Ralph: "look, mate, I dont know why you persist in calling me a scab. I was'n' even there!'
Kapn: "Well, you always contradic' (hic) everything I say and call me a liar"
Ralph:"I wouldn't say you're actually a liar but somtimes I(burp) think your slant on things differs from wha' happ'ned"
Kapn: "F#$% you"
Ralph:" Well F3$%^& you too"
Kap: "Scab"
Ralph:"Liar"
Kapn M punches Ralph in the nose and knocks him off his chair. Ralph gets up and smashes a bar-stool accoss Ms' teeth and then laughs "Ha! that teach ya". M gets up yelling "Muthaf$%^a" then kicks Ralph in the balls and the two of them fall thru a glass panel locked in a fist flailing embrace into the bar. 2 VB hosties gush with delight. When the police arrive, Ralph is strangling M with the pool-ball triangle as M tries to stuff the broken end of a cue up Ralphs' ar5e..
At the courthouse..
Police Prosecutor: ".. affray, assault, indecent language, wilful destruction of propery.. Your worship, these two were as drunk as judges".
His Worship: "Don't you mean as drunk as Lords?"
Prosecutor:"Yes m'lord"
His worship(hopefully):"So what is this pea prune thing where you met? Is it some kind of dietary health club?"
Prosecutor: "Your worship, it is an internet message and chat board where aviation related topics are discussed".
His Worship:"Internet?"
Prosecutor:" Your Honour, a recent invention utilising a computer and telephone.."
His Worship(curtly):" Yes, quite! Well, what do you two have to say?"
Ralph(squeeking slightly): "Sorry"
M: "Sorry"
Magistrate: "Now kiss and make up".
Ralph and M together: "NO WAY"
M: "You expect me to kiss the face only a Mother could love?"
Ralph:"Cruel and unusual punishment, Sir! He looks like he's been trying to eat a chair!"
His lordship: "50 pounds in the poor box, each and throw them out. Case dismissed"
Prosecutor: "Pounds, Sir? We've had decimal currency since 1966".
His Worship: "Eh?.. Hmm. court adjorned for lunch and my afternoon nap" (bangs gavel and shuffles out).
Outside..
Ralph: "well see ya tomorrow on pprune"
Kapn M : "Yeah see ya mate"
(Curtain falls, pprune theme song cuts in, lights fade..)
then?
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TNO We have all tollerated your slant and crap to long, this time you went to far. If you pulled your head out of your backside long enough to look around you would realise that the world has moved on, unfortunately someone like you who has a Dinosaur type brain is still with us, instead of extinct.
That quote of your's belongs to your "hero mates" so I personally am affronted by the assertion as above.
Your memory if you have one is obviously feeble for as I recall the ambiet claim of 29% was made up of "catch up" for all the "screwing of higher income earners" BY HAWKES BLOODY ACCORD
Snot noses like yourself no doubt were very smug in the fact that you were quietly eroding away the gap and IN MOST CASES TAKING HOME HIGHER SALARIES THAN PILOTS thanks to a corrupt wages determination system the AFAP found themselves in.
So before you and your "hero mates like Ralph the Bong and Wizfoz start slagging off GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT
I only hope you and your '89 cohorts are satisfied with the outcome of your greed and intransigence
Your memory if you have one is obviously feeble for as I recall the ambiet claim of 29% was made up of "catch up" for all the "screwing of higher income earners" BY HAWKES BLOODY ACCORD
Snot noses like yourself no doubt were very smug in the fact that you were quietly eroding away the gap and IN MOST CASES TAKING HOME HIGHER SALARIES THAN PILOTS thanks to a corrupt wages determination system the AFAP found themselves in.
So before you and your "hero mates like Ralph the Bong and Wizfoz start slagging off GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT
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FarQ2...says it all really and whilst you near another sad aniversary you may want to give some thought to the "others" that your actions affected. CSO's, Ramp Loaders and Res Clerks etc. Perhaps if you pulled your head out of your backside and recognised that it takes more than Pilots to make an airline work, you may get another perspective on past events. Perhaps even enjoy life instead of shortening it through negative and puerile emotional outbursts.
Yarra
Yarra
Evertonian
Now, I've stayed out of this, for reasons known to the Kaptin, but I find the need to question part of your "aggressive" post FarQ2.
In my recollection, Hawke went after you blokes because you wanted no part of his Accord. So, if I'm reading the above quote from you correctly, the pilots body didn't stay out of the Accord & chose strike action to compensate??? Now I'm totally confused...assuming your statement is correct...
the ambiet claim of 29% was made up of "catch up" for all the "screwing of higher income earners" BY HAWKES BLOODY ACCORD
May I suggest that recriminations are pointless.
I'm afraid that all of you fell for Peter Abeles often used tactic, apart from a simple murder threat, he used to give people enough rope to hang themselves, and let them do just that.
The pilots union fell for it hook line and sinker. He used the same tactic to sack a certain Director of Engineering. As far as I was concerned, I knew very little of his history at the time and I thought of him as "Uncle Peter" who was very good to me when I was at Ansett.
I'm afraid that all of you fell for Peter Abeles often used tactic, apart from a simple murder threat, he used to give people enough rope to hang themselves, and let them do just that.
The pilots union fell for it hook line and sinker. He used the same tactic to sack a certain Director of Engineering. As far as I was concerned, I knew very little of his history at the time and I thought of him as "Uncle Peter" who was very good to me when I was at Ansett.
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I thank you for your post, FQ2, as ill-thought and vitriolic as it was! Why is it, I wonder, that you are still possessed of such vehemence?
Yarra has it right, there were more than just the pilot body who lost out as a result of '89, as I said before the airline was severely damaged and your collective action most certainly played its part in the downfall of AN, although it was not the singular cause.
Your affront is of no concern to me, my belief is not predicated on your goodwill, get over it!
I love the comment re "...screwing higher income earners..", what nonsense! The primary reason for the 29.47% demand was, from my memory, however feeble, "to restore the salaries of pilots to those of comparable professionals, e.g. doctors, lawyers, etc., (my words). If you can show me a pilot who spends 6 years at Uni to qualify for his profession, then spends more years as an intern working hours that your representative body would simply not permit, then I might begin to listen to your original case, NOT BEFORE!
"...snot noses like yourself"..."quietly eroding away the gap" - is that what is upsetting you, FQ2? Is it beyound the pale that someone as lowly as myself or my ilk could begin to earn an income that approaching that of deities like your good self? Good Lord, and you accuse ME of having MY head in my backside!!
I say again, MY perception of the facts differ from yours by virtue of my interpretation of them, and I lived and worked at AN throughout and after '89, that does NOT make them wrong.
Kind regards,
TheNightOwl.
Yarra has it right, there were more than just the pilot body who lost out as a result of '89, as I said before the airline was severely damaged and your collective action most certainly played its part in the downfall of AN, although it was not the singular cause.
Your affront is of no concern to me, my belief is not predicated on your goodwill, get over it!
I love the comment re "...screwing higher income earners..", what nonsense! The primary reason for the 29.47% demand was, from my memory, however feeble, "to restore the salaries of pilots to those of comparable professionals, e.g. doctors, lawyers, etc., (my words). If you can show me a pilot who spends 6 years at Uni to qualify for his profession, then spends more years as an intern working hours that your representative body would simply not permit, then I might begin to listen to your original case, NOT BEFORE!
"...snot noses like yourself"..."quietly eroding away the gap" - is that what is upsetting you, FQ2? Is it beyound the pale that someone as lowly as myself or my ilk could begin to earn an income that approaching that of deities like your good self? Good Lord, and you accuse ME of having MY head in my backside!!
I say again, MY perception of the facts differ from yours by virtue of my interpretation of them, and I lived and worked at AN throughout and after '89, that does NOT make them wrong.
Kind regards,
TheNightOwl.
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TNO,
Don't try to lump pilots against Lawyers, Doctors etc.
Pilots have to do perhaps 2 years of hard study, with flying training interspersed, then say 4 to 5 years of "internship" as you describe to earn the usual requisite 1500 hours experience.
Then we get jobs in an airline, where we start as FO's, and learn MORE from our Captains and others. That includes:
1. Life preservation - how to bring customers from A to B without a scratch on them. That's USUALLY about 200 lives we need to worry about, plus our own.
2. Hospitality - how to be NICE and CHARMING to our customers (and FA's
)
3. Engineering: we get to learn the ins and outs, the rights and wrongs, the electrics, fuel, hydraulics, pneumatics, thrust generation etc etc of a VERY complex high performance machine.
4. Aerodynamicist: we have to learn how the aircraft performs, and it's performance under varying, and sometimes critical situations. We have to be mathemeticians, and interpolate, extrapolate, and interpret results of performance alterations, that can change in an INSTANT of time. We have to be physicists, and apply sometimes complex formulae.
5. Navigator: we have to know how to navigate the aircraft safely and PROPERLY around the sky. IN the better aircraft, we have to be computer programmers and analysts and enter and interpret the data displayed to us, and apply that to the situations.
And so on. Doctors usually SPECIALISE in an area, as do most professionals (spelt that right Air-Hag). Pilots must don the hat of MANY specialists.
You see, and I know you didn't say so, but Piloting is a SPECIALTY; one that encompasses MANY faculties of specialisation! To lump us against others as you did is incomporable.
That is why so many of us took umbrage to Hawke's statement of "They are nothing but glorified bus drivers".
So, please, unless you actually have gone through the process of becoming an ATPL from Student pilot to Captain of an aircraft with 200+ souls on board, please do not try to lump us against "specialists". It won't fly.
Do you ever wonder why so many full age retired pilots simply die within a couple years (or less) of retiring? Think about that one, and then you may know the "stress" (HATE that word) involved in our chosen careers.
Oh, do pilots do a 6 year or so internship? Nope - we usually do about 30 years internship!
Don't try to lump pilots against Lawyers, Doctors etc.
Pilots have to do perhaps 2 years of hard study, with flying training interspersed, then say 4 to 5 years of "internship" as you describe to earn the usual requisite 1500 hours experience.
Then we get jobs in an airline, where we start as FO's, and learn MORE from our Captains and others. That includes:
1. Life preservation - how to bring customers from A to B without a scratch on them. That's USUALLY about 200 lives we need to worry about, plus our own.
2. Hospitality - how to be NICE and CHARMING to our customers (and FA's
)3. Engineering: we get to learn the ins and outs, the rights and wrongs, the electrics, fuel, hydraulics, pneumatics, thrust generation etc etc of a VERY complex high performance machine.
4. Aerodynamicist: we have to learn how the aircraft performs, and it's performance under varying, and sometimes critical situations. We have to be mathemeticians, and interpolate, extrapolate, and interpret results of performance alterations, that can change in an INSTANT of time. We have to be physicists, and apply sometimes complex formulae.
5. Navigator: we have to know how to navigate the aircraft safely and PROPERLY around the sky. IN the better aircraft, we have to be computer programmers and analysts and enter and interpret the data displayed to us, and apply that to the situations.
And so on. Doctors usually SPECIALISE in an area, as do most professionals (spelt that right Air-Hag). Pilots must don the hat of MANY specialists.
You see, and I know you didn't say so, but Piloting is a SPECIALTY; one that encompasses MANY faculties of specialisation! To lump us against others as you did is incomporable.
That is why so many of us took umbrage to Hawke's statement of "They are nothing but glorified bus drivers".
So, please, unless you actually have gone through the process of becoming an ATPL from Student pilot to Captain of an aircraft with 200+ souls on board, please do not try to lump us against "specialists". It won't fly.
Do you ever wonder why so many full age retired pilots simply die within a couple years (or less) of retiring? Think about that one, and then you may know the "stress" (HATE that word) involved in our chosen careers.
Oh, do pilots do a 6 year or so internship? Nope - we usually do about 30 years internship!
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Thanks for the reply, RTA, but pleaase go back and read what I said, not what you THINK I said!
I did not claim the comparison between pilots and doctors, etc., your ex-AFAP did.
Let me present my bona fides - I was employed in aviation from 1961 until 2002, most of that time in aircrew training, so I am WELL aware of the levels of multitudinous skills required to become a pilot. Many of the posters on here know me and, I am sure, would assure you that I have always had the highest regard for your occupation. As for your claims as to the LEVELS of knowledge required of aircraft systems to become a pilot, I might have a heated discussion with you there!
I might even claim to have had a higher level of knowledge, considering my occupation for the 41 years I spent around aeroplanes, if you PM me I'd be delighted to clear up any doubts you may have.
It has NEVER been my intent to denigrate the profession, my antipathy has always been to the part played by the '89 debacle in AN's downfall. The pilot body has, IN MY OPINION, a great deal to answer for, and that is not to say that you were not badly treated by the management and government of the day. They were/are an unprincipled lot of rogues, self-interested to the 'n'th degree, but who used the ammunition handed to them on a plate by the AFAP to beat you into submission. You will, no doubt, disagree, that is your perception and right, but allow me to have my own view, however jaundiced you might perceive it to be.
Kind regards,
TheNightOwl.
I did not claim the comparison between pilots and doctors, etc., your ex-AFAP did.
Let me present my bona fides - I was employed in aviation from 1961 until 2002, most of that time in aircrew training, so I am WELL aware of the levels of multitudinous skills required to become a pilot. Many of the posters on here know me and, I am sure, would assure you that I have always had the highest regard for your occupation. As for your claims as to the LEVELS of knowledge required of aircraft systems to become a pilot, I might have a heated discussion with you there!
I might even claim to have had a higher level of knowledge, considering my occupation for the 41 years I spent around aeroplanes, if you PM me I'd be delighted to clear up any doubts you may have.
It has NEVER been my intent to denigrate the profession, my antipathy has always been to the part played by the '89 debacle in AN's downfall. The pilot body has, IN MY OPINION, a great deal to answer for, and that is not to say that you were not badly treated by the management and government of the day. They were/are an unprincipled lot of rogues, self-interested to the 'n'th degree, but who used the ammunition handed to them on a plate by the AFAP to beat you into submission. You will, no doubt, disagree, that is your perception and right, but allow me to have my own view, however jaundiced you might perceive it to be.
Kind regards,
TheNightOwl.
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Is it true that AN and QF had a list of all striking pilots who did not re-apply for their positions with a "Never Recruit Under Any Circumstances" tag attached to each name?
I've heard the rumours but I have always wondered how they could possibly get away with it.
I've heard the rumours but I have always wondered how they could possibly get away with it.
As an experiment, officially sanctioned by AFAP Brisbane, my sister applied to AN during the dispute as an FA. She sent in a resume under her GENUINE name, address, details, etc, AS WELL as a SEPERATE one with merely the SURNAME and ADDRESS CHANGED - NOTHING else altered.
She got the two replies - the one under her GENUINE details said the usual "We are sorry, we are not interviewing" etc spiel. The name and address letter came back, offering her an interview on such and such a date.
Discrimination via a blacklist? UNDOUBTEDLY!
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ANSETT COLLAPSE
THE REAL CULPRITS ARE THE MEMBERS OF THE F.I.R.B.WHO APPROVED THE SHARE PURCHASE.WHO MUST HAVE BEEN DECEIVED BY THE ANZ MANAGEMENT,BRIBED OR JUST PLAIN STUPID.ASIDE FROM NOT HAVING THE EXPERTISE TO MANAGE A LARGE COMPANY,THEY WERE HOPELESSLY UNDER CAPITLISED.IT TAKES A LOT OF "MANAGEMENT EXPERTISE"TO LOSE OVER HALF A BILLION DOLLARS IN SIX MONTHS.
I BELIEVE TWOMEY WAS DECEIVED WHEN GIVEN THE POISONED CHALICE AND FED A LOT OF BULL**** BY ANZ,AFTER ALL THE TREASURY WAS IN AUCKLAND TO WHICH ALL TICKET PAYMENTS BURNT THEIR WAY.
THE SITUATION WOULD HAVE BEEN STILL RECOVERABLE BY A SCHEME OF ARRANGEMENT WITH THE CREDITORS,HOWEVER I GUESS A LIQUIDATION YIELDED MORE MONEY FOR THE LIQUIDATOR'S.
I BELIEVE TWOMEY WAS DECEIVED WHEN GIVEN THE POISONED CHALICE AND FED A LOT OF BULL**** BY ANZ,AFTER ALL THE TREASURY WAS IN AUCKLAND TO WHICH ALL TICKET PAYMENTS BURNT THEIR WAY.
THE SITUATION WOULD HAVE BEEN STILL RECOVERABLE BY A SCHEME OF ARRANGEMENT WITH THE CREDITORS,HOWEVER I GUESS A LIQUIDATION YIELDED MORE MONEY FOR THE LIQUIDATOR'S.
THERE ARE NONE SO BLIND AS THOSE WHO DON'T WISH TO SEE !!
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Amusing Ralph - but that's about all. As anyone who knows me will vouch, (i) I'm not a great lover of beer, (ii) I don't bother calling "scabs", "scabs" any more [ask the Sky Net Asia guy who shared the elevator with me a week or so ago]...they got their "just desserts" in my opinion, and they have to live with the consequences of their actions for the rest of their lives, (iii) I learnt many years ago (around 1973, in fact) how to control and channel my physical violence, and (iv) if I thought you WERE a scab, I wouldn't be drinking with you in any case..for starters!
Thank you also, TNO. Just as 1989 had a monumental affect on the lives of ALL pilots involved - +ve and -ve - so did the collapse of Ansett on its employees.
I recommend to you, some of your own profferings of the panacea that you suggest to the pilots of the Dispute, when it comes to Air N.Z's involvement.
Just as you see the AFAP pilots in a bad light over the events of 1989 - and I do not - I similarly do NOT believe that Air New Zealand were responsible for Ansett's downfall, and for the life of me cannot see WHY you are so focused on blaming them.
Personally - as an outsider looking in - I believe that Air New Zealand could hardly believe their good fortune when they found themselves in a position to control one of Australia's major airlines...Kiwis controlling Ansett!!
BTW, TNO - the comparison between pilots, lawyers, etc, was based on relative INCOME - not necessarily on academic equality. And I agree that you and I will probably have to "agree to disagree" on some issues - until we have the pleasure of a "face-to-face"...should be an interesting couple of hours!!
This topic is moving on - and in slightly different directions to past ones, I believe, Woomera - however the roots of the tree planted 15 years ago still had a bearing on how the future branches and leaves developed.
Sometimes we need to go back to the roots....dig up a little bit of dirt....to determine if the issue was a "root cause" or something that sprouted later.
In my opinion, Ansett served as a vehicle for many political changes once Murdoch (and anyone who is not aware of it should investigate Ruoert Murdoch's role in the Wapping dispuite, his affiliation with Maggie Thatcher, and his grooming of Bob Hawke from Hawke's university days), and Abeles (also check out Abeles' influence over Hawke) took control.
Under a Hawke led Labor Government, Ansett - in conjunction with the Federal Government owned Australian Airlines (aka TAA) was used to smash a union..the AFAP...that had resisted joining the ACTU/TWU (previously Hawke-led)...and that refused to be part of "The Accord".
Some 11 years later, a Liberal Government stood back and watched Ansett and 10,000 (approx) Australian workers collapse, taking with it, and them, disputably the singlular biggest representation of ACTU/TWU unionised labour in Australian aviation.
Thank you also, TNO. Just as 1989 had a monumental affect on the lives of ALL pilots involved - +ve and -ve - so did the collapse of Ansett on its employees.
I recommend to you, some of your own profferings of the panacea that you suggest to the pilots of the Dispute, when it comes to Air N.Z's involvement.
Just as you see the AFAP pilots in a bad light over the events of 1989 - and I do not - I similarly do NOT believe that Air New Zealand were responsible for Ansett's downfall, and for the life of me cannot see WHY you are so focused on blaming them.
Personally - as an outsider looking in - I believe that Air New Zealand could hardly believe their good fortune when they found themselves in a position to control one of Australia's major airlines...Kiwis controlling Ansett!!
BTW, TNO - the comparison between pilots, lawyers, etc, was based on relative INCOME - not necessarily on academic equality. And I agree that you and I will probably have to "agree to disagree" on some issues - until we have the pleasure of a "face-to-face"...should be an interesting couple of hours!!
This topic is moving on - and in slightly different directions to past ones, I believe, Woomera - however the roots of the tree planted 15 years ago still had a bearing on how the future branches and leaves developed.
Sometimes we need to go back to the roots....dig up a little bit of dirt....to determine if the issue was a "root cause" or something that sprouted later.
In my opinion, Ansett served as a vehicle for many political changes once Murdoch (and anyone who is not aware of it should investigate Ruoert Murdoch's role in the Wapping dispuite, his affiliation with Maggie Thatcher, and his grooming of Bob Hawke from Hawke's university days), and Abeles (also check out Abeles' influence over Hawke) took control.
Under a Hawke led Labor Government, Ansett - in conjunction with the Federal Government owned Australian Airlines (aka TAA) was used to smash a union..the AFAP...that had resisted joining the ACTU/TWU (previously Hawke-led)...and that refused to be part of "The Accord".
Some 11 years later, a Liberal Government stood back and watched Ansett and 10,000 (approx) Australian workers collapse, taking with it, and them, disputably the singlular biggest representation of ACTU/TWU unionised labour in Australian aviation.
And if Ansett was based in Sydney it would have been rescued.
Maybe Ansett should have had Trevor Kennedy, Graem Richardson, Jamie Packer or Nick Griener on the Board. The Sydney Mafia always get theri own way - no matter which party is in power.
Maybe Ansett should have had Trevor Kennedy, Graem Richardson, Jamie Packer or Nick Griener on the Board. The Sydney Mafia always get theri own way - no matter which party is in power.
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This will never do, Kap, we're approaching mutual tolerance, what will I do for my occasional stoush? 
AirNZ's acquisition of the second 50% of AN was, I firmly believe, intended to ensure that the REPORTED $US2.2 billion available in the SQ coffers for investment was diverted to ANZ rather than AN. This would have allowed ANZ access to Aus domestic markets, while keeping SQ out of them, as well as limiting any AN/SQ alliances internationally and funding of AN expansion plans. The fact that they nearly beggared themselves in the acquisition, to the point of cutting us adrift to sink, was a direct consequence of their greed. Even their own government had to bail them out to save the national airline, what about that do you not follow? I have no idea as to the veracity of reports about AirNZ's conduct following their abandonment of AN, e.g. removing funds daily to NZ; removing a 737 full of AN's avionics kit to Wellington/Helengrad for their own aircraft use, but I am quite prepared to believe it, my view of them is so jaundiced.
As for "...believe their good fortune....Australia's major airlines", good fortune didn't come into it - their greedy panic was so great that they could not help themselves in their anxiety to access SQ's development funds and either failed, or didn't carry out, their "due diligence" requirements. Either way, their management ineptitude was as staggeringly bad as the previous AN management's, just over a considerably shorter timescale!!
Yes, I understand the point about comparable salaries, but that is, once again, a matter of perception, and I was left in no doubt by the AFAP reps that, in their eyes at least, restoration of the status of the pilot body was as important to them as the restoration of the salary levels. THAT was the crux of my point.
Your points about the results of the debacle are well made, and I must heartily agree wrt the Thatcher woman (if that is what she really is)! A more appalling person to be in her position would be difficult to imagine, she was a harridan of the first water, IMHO.
The industrial die is long cast, Kap, and the future direction of IR in this country has been well and truly shaped by business and politicians, to the detriment of the bargaining power of ANY union body. It will take a strong, and not necessarily militant, leader to re-shape the blue-collar working population into a cohesive force and, quite frankly, I can't envisage it happening in my remaining lifetime.
I note your reply to RTB, and also your dislike of beer, but, should you choose, I'd be delighted to buy you a drink over an animated "discussion" one of these fine days. I'll stick to beer, to my undying shame I'm a Scot who can't stand the taste of whisky!!
Kind regards,
TheNightOwl
AirNZ's acquisition of the second 50% of AN was, I firmly believe, intended to ensure that the REPORTED $US2.2 billion available in the SQ coffers for investment was diverted to ANZ rather than AN. This would have allowed ANZ access to Aus domestic markets, while keeping SQ out of them, as well as limiting any AN/SQ alliances internationally and funding of AN expansion plans. The fact that they nearly beggared themselves in the acquisition, to the point of cutting us adrift to sink, was a direct consequence of their greed. Even their own government had to bail them out to save the national airline, what about that do you not follow? I have no idea as to the veracity of reports about AirNZ's conduct following their abandonment of AN, e.g. removing funds daily to NZ; removing a 737 full of AN's avionics kit to Wellington/Helengrad for their own aircraft use, but I am quite prepared to believe it, my view of them is so jaundiced.
As for "...believe their good fortune....Australia's major airlines", good fortune didn't come into it - their greedy panic was so great that they could not help themselves in their anxiety to access SQ's development funds and either failed, or didn't carry out, their "due diligence" requirements. Either way, their management ineptitude was as staggeringly bad as the previous AN management's, just over a considerably shorter timescale!!
Yes, I understand the point about comparable salaries, but that is, once again, a matter of perception, and I was left in no doubt by the AFAP reps that, in their eyes at least, restoration of the status of the pilot body was as important to them as the restoration of the salary levels. THAT was the crux of my point.
Your points about the results of the debacle are well made, and I must heartily agree wrt the Thatcher woman (if that is what she really is)! A more appalling person to be in her position would be difficult to imagine, she was a harridan of the first water, IMHO.
The industrial die is long cast, Kap, and the future direction of IR in this country has been well and truly shaped by business and politicians, to the detriment of the bargaining power of ANY union body. It will take a strong, and not necessarily militant, leader to re-shape the blue-collar working population into a cohesive force and, quite frankly, I can't envisage it happening in my remaining lifetime.
I note your reply to RTB, and also your dislike of beer, but, should you choose, I'd be delighted to buy you a drink over an animated "discussion" one of these fine days. I'll stick to beer, to my undying shame I'm a Scot who can't stand the taste of whisky!!
Kind regards,
TheNightOwl
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: 5 miles up
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Buster I am appalled - a pox on you my boy ! 
I am not a Scot however I do claim some Scottish heritage, unlike TNO I do like more than a wee dram of the finest highland liquid.
IT IS SACRILEGE TO ADD ANYTHING OTHER THAN A FEW DROPS OF SPRING WATER TO THE WORLDS FINEST ELIXER
maybe a drop of maidens water!
I am not a Scot however I do claim some Scottish heritage, unlike TNO I do like more than a wee dram of the finest highland liquid.
IT IS SACRILEGE TO ADD ANYTHING OTHER THAN A FEW DROPS OF SPRING WATER TO THE WORLDS FINEST ELIXER
maybe a drop of maidens water!
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Age: 84
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For the further education of Buster, FQ2, and any other adulterers of "The Craitur", let me advise you - the ONLY permissible additive to a single malt of quality is a little more of the same! I have that on the very good authority of my maternal grandfather, who was a distiller all his working life. Unlike me, he was partial to a "wee drop, for my health, you understand"!!!
Kind regards,
TheNightOwl.
Kind regards,
TheNightOwl.