Stoush royale coming in Qantas
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Stoush royale coming in Qantas
Well, it had to happen some time and the mainline Q list pilots are finding themselves under assault from a predictable source….the 89 returnees from Australian/TAA.
Under the integration agreement in QF we have the A list and the Q list (not to mention the Y) and without getting too technical a situation has arisen whereby the two have met with the introduction of the A330.
So who gets the best cut of meat? The datally senior Q list pilots or the A list scabs. The very vocal scabs believe they are entitled to essentially infiltrate the Q list and enjoy artificially advantaged seniority. Amazingly, due to the wording of the agreement they may have a case.If the Q list pilots end up with the short end of the stick then the bitterness will last as long as that from 89.
Leopards never change their spots and the Q list pilots are now finding how true this is.
Under the integration agreement in QF we have the A list and the Q list (not to mention the Y) and without getting too technical a situation has arisen whereby the two have met with the introduction of the A330.
So who gets the best cut of meat? The datally senior Q list pilots or the A list scabs. The very vocal scabs believe they are entitled to essentially infiltrate the Q list and enjoy artificially advantaged seniority. Amazingly, due to the wording of the agreement they may have a case.If the Q list pilots end up with the short end of the stick then the bitterness will last as long as that from 89.
Leopards never change their spots and the Q list pilots are now finding how true this is.
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Personally I reckon the shorthaulers who are now flying the 330, can have their system on it, I'd love to seem them cry out when a 7 day 50 hour trip is taken off them and they have no pattern protection, and no time to make it up, and then have the rest of their line "destroyed". it should be a real Hoot!
bonvol,
A very well written piece of half truth and vitriol.
As you are well aware, at the time the 100% government owned Qantas "bought" the 100% government owned Australian Airlines, Qantas was pure international and Australian pure domestic. The integration meant QF pilots had first shot at all "International" types whilst the AA guys got any expantion in "Domestic" types. All fair, right? Except, of course, that the major source of expantion for the next decade was the "International" B767 taking over the burgening domestic capacity, whilst the domestic A300s were got rid of. In other words the long-haul guys did very well out of the deal thank you very much.
Now, of course, a new "domestic" type appears, and what do we have? Long haulers squealing like stuck pigs and trying to reneg on the deal.
And before you go dragging out the "S" word, ask the average long-term AFAP member how much they appreciated your staunch support during the dispute (NOT!!)
A very well written piece of half truth and vitriol.
As you are well aware, at the time the 100% government owned Qantas "bought" the 100% government owned Australian Airlines, Qantas was pure international and Australian pure domestic. The integration meant QF pilots had first shot at all "International" types whilst the AA guys got any expantion in "Domestic" types. All fair, right? Except, of course, that the major source of expantion for the next decade was the "International" B767 taking over the burgening domestic capacity, whilst the domestic A300s were got rid of. In other words the long-haul guys did very well out of the deal thank you very much.
Now, of course, a new "domestic" type appears, and what do we have? Long haulers squealing like stuck pigs and trying to reneg on the deal.
And before you go dragging out the "S" word, ask the average long-term AFAP member how much they appreciated your staunch support during the dispute (NOT!!)
Last edited by Wizofoz; 9th Jul 2004 at 18:46.
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a 7 day 50 hour trip
And why would you derive pleasure from the misfortunes of others? I'm sure you're not serious.
Last edited by itchybum; 10th Jul 2004 at 11:47.
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Wizofoz
Your post also contains half truths.
Yes a new "domestic" type did appear in the form of the A330. However there is an itergration document that basically says that when a new type is introduced, it will be flown as a percentage by each "haul" in accordance to the type of flying it is going to do. (domestic/ international) This percentage also governs whether it was operated under SH or LH award.
When the A330 was introduced it did 100% domestic and about 90% of the Captains were SH, it is also operated under the SH award. The rest came from LH as Qantas had a small amount of domestic before the purchase of Australian.
Now the trigger has taken place that within the next 12 months it will be doing more than 50% international flying, it will come under LH's award.
The SH Captains got onto the A330 with their seniority and operated under the SH award, now that it is about to change awards they are not too happy about seniority on the LH award, mainly rostering. They say seniority was not discussed and that it should be "something else" or "we" will take it to the industrial court.
I certainly believe that which ever award the aircraft is operated under, it should be just that and not "something else".
I agree that LH pilots did do well out of the 767 being introduced to domestic flying. The 737s have also done well and has also expanded since then. There is also nothing to stop Qantas putting 737s international or 747s domestic, this does in fact happen.
We now have a new type and also an integration agreement which covers the crewing of it..........it has nothing to do with "stuck pigs" etc!
Your post also contains half truths.
Yes a new "domestic" type did appear in the form of the A330. However there is an itergration document that basically says that when a new type is introduced, it will be flown as a percentage by each "haul" in accordance to the type of flying it is going to do. (domestic/ international) This percentage also governs whether it was operated under SH or LH award.
When the A330 was introduced it did 100% domestic and about 90% of the Captains were SH, it is also operated under the SH award. The rest came from LH as Qantas had a small amount of domestic before the purchase of Australian.
Now the trigger has taken place that within the next 12 months it will be doing more than 50% international flying, it will come under LH's award.
The SH Captains got onto the A330 with their seniority and operated under the SH award, now that it is about to change awards they are not too happy about seniority on the LH award, mainly rostering. They say seniority was not discussed and that it should be "something else" or "we" will take it to the industrial court.
I certainly believe that which ever award the aircraft is operated under, it should be just that and not "something else".
I agree that LH pilots did do well out of the 767 being introduced to domestic flying. The 737s have also done well and has also expanded since then. There is also nothing to stop Qantas putting 737s international or 747s domestic, this does in fact happen.
We now have a new type and also an integration agreement which covers the crewing of it..........it has nothing to do with "stuck pigs" etc!
Last edited by bombshell; 10th Jul 2004 at 00:11.
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Just a note to remember… When Qantas and Australian merged…
Australian Airlines owned Eastern Airlines etc (who by the request of the AFAP were not involved in the 89 dispute) and were not given the opportunity to integrate at all…
What would happen if the two lists (A & Q) were merged on date of joining, surely the earliest date for an Australian Airlines pilot would be 89….
Australian Airlines owned Eastern Airlines etc (who by the request of the AFAP were not involved in the 89 dispute) and were not given the opportunity to integrate at all…
What would happen if the two lists (A & Q) were merged on date of joining, surely the earliest date for an Australian Airlines pilot would be 89….
bonvol,
If the A330 can "Change" from being an SH type to a 50% LH type, why wasn't the 767 "Changed" to a 50% SH type?
Sauce for the goose?
If the A330 can "Change" from being an SH type to a 50% LH type, why wasn't the 767 "Changed" to a 50% SH type?
Sauce for the goose?
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Based on the history of these guys Wiz I don't believe they are even entitled to a job.
They got in after stabbing their peers in the back and now want to advantage their position even further.
They got in after stabbing their peers in the back and now want to advantage their position even further.
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Wizofoz as far as QF support goes in '89, we were in a different union and company. We did support you in as much as we refused to carry, at least knowingly, any purely domestic pax. We did carry pax who were ticketed on a domestic sector with us and that sector was part of an international trip. e.g. SYD-MEL-SIN or PER-SYD-LAX etc.
I remember at the time, I and many others were hoping you guys were going to come out of it okay, unfortunately this did not happen.
I remember at the time, I and many others were hoping you guys were going to come out of it okay, unfortunately this did not happen.
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I probably wouldn't be as vitreolic as bonvol, but the reality is that the A330 captains who are now bleating like stuck pigs on seniority are the same ones who voted in the 'b' scale forF/O's transferring from longhaul.
Regardless of your position on the '89 dispute - this is dispicable, and leads me and other 'Q' listers to be less than charatable towards this group.
Another interesting fact is that statittically at present, the A330 has the highest command training failure rate of any of the QF fleets.
All these failures are ex B737 captains employed in the aftermath of 89.
Pilots who have been protected on the B737 up until now - but for the first time are now exposed to the wider QF training system.
None of these individuals have ever done the QF selection process, but have been inherited as a result of the merger.
One individual was so hopeless that not only was he sent back to the B737, he was sent back as an F/O.
The point is this. If I was a 'A' list captain on the A330, I would be gratefull that I have a position on an aircraft massively out of seniority and would shut my mouth.
Idiots like 'Harald' on Qrewroom do nothing but reopen wounds that are best left closed
Regardless of your position on the '89 dispute - this is dispicable, and leads me and other 'Q' listers to be less than charatable towards this group.
Another interesting fact is that statittically at present, the A330 has the highest command training failure rate of any of the QF fleets.
All these failures are ex B737 captains employed in the aftermath of 89.
Pilots who have been protected on the B737 up until now - but for the first time are now exposed to the wider QF training system.
None of these individuals have ever done the QF selection process, but have been inherited as a result of the merger.
One individual was so hopeless that not only was he sent back to the B737, he was sent back as an F/O.
The point is this. If I was a 'A' list captain on the A330, I would be gratefull that I have a position on an aircraft massively out of seniority and would shut my mouth.
Idiots like 'Harald' on Qrewroom do nothing but reopen wounds that are best left closed
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And we all know the origin there. Couldn't agree with you more.
These guys just can't help themselves and should be grateful that post 89 they are the only ones who haven't had some sort of massive displacement and are in a position they don't deserve.
These guys just can't help themselves and should be grateful that post 89 they are the only ones who haven't had some sort of massive displacement and are in a position they don't deserve.
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Pollution and bonvol. I dont really have an opinion either way on these blokes, but I wonder if you two, and others like you, will be so vocal in ten years time about the Jetscab people whining that they are entitled to a level playing field on the '7E7' (or another new qf type for instance).
Because the jetscab people today, are doing just what the 'a' list pilots did in '89. The scabs in 89 also complained that they needed a job, just like the Jetscab people are whining today. They think they will be entitled to a qf career path, just like the 'a' list pilots agreement.
It amazes me that you can be so vocal about seniority on the A330, and yet you can't see what is happenning right under your noses. We have scabs here in 2004, just like we had in 1989. Just the rules have changed.....
Because the jetscab people today, are doing just what the 'a' list pilots did in '89. The scabs in 89 also complained that they needed a job, just like the Jetscab people are whining today. They think they will be entitled to a qf career path, just like the 'a' list pilots agreement.
It amazes me that you can be so vocal about seniority on the A330, and yet you can't see what is happenning right under your noses. We have scabs here in 2004, just like we had in 1989. Just the rules have changed.....
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pollution,
Nice first post.
A bit rich rolling out the command failure rate stats mate.
I seem to remember not so long ago the B767 well and truly held the failure rate record and they had ALL done the much lauded "QF selection process" and had been widely exposed to the "wider QF training system".
Nice first post.
A bit rich rolling out the command failure rate stats mate.
I seem to remember not so long ago the B767 well and truly held the failure rate record and they had ALL done the much lauded "QF selection process" and had been widely exposed to the "wider QF training system".
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Yorik, I don't see the Jetstar people as scabs. They were not involved in an industrial dispute and AIPA gave them the cold shoulder when it counted.
It could have been much different if AIPA took a more pro-active stance but they put their head in the sand. Now they are trying to cobble together a bit of a broken down face saver that will appeal to no one.
That the Jetstar agreement may result bad things appearing down the trail look no further than AIPA. No scope clause guys....dumb.. dumb.. dumb.
It could have been much different if AIPA took a more pro-active stance but they put their head in the sand. Now they are trying to cobble together a bit of a broken down face saver that will appeal to no one.
That the Jetstar agreement may result bad things appearing down the trail look no further than AIPA. No scope clause guys....dumb.. dumb.. dumb.
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Pollution,
No pilot has been demoted to F/O on any type after failure of the A330 command course, exaggerating just confirms any suspicions that you are a fool.
As others have alluded to the failure rate of the A330 is nowhere near the levels of the 767 some years ago. All of these 767 candidates were “Real” Qantas pilots, yet that didn’t help them.
There are also a number of Q Captains who have had trouble on the Bus, and are now regularly failing their recurrent sims.
Some Q pilots have even managed to fail the 737 command course, despite the excellent training (not checking) and the willingness to help anyone who needs it with extra sectors (a willingness that seems to be missing on the 330, unless you are a Q pilot!) etc…
I don’t make assumptions as to why these guys fail, just observe that it does happen. It might be best if you do the same.
Enough about that…
Regarding the integration. The agreement makes it quite clear.
With a “NEW” type ALL conditions are up for grabs. Seriously you should read it. There is no clause which says it will be on the SH award during the Domestic phase and then the LH award for international. That was something that was agreed between the parties (Q and A) and resulted in the Letter of Agreement. This is proven by the FACT that the 330 is NOT on the SH award and NEVER has been.
Now that we have that established, the next item is what should happen now.
Well the agreed LOA says that when trigger 2 happens then AIPA can elect to change to the LH Pay and Rostering system (It is not a switch to the LH award because the 330 is already on the LH award).
Now the key phrase here is the “LH Pay and Rostering system”. If you refer to the award you will see that Pay relates to the PAY section, and Rostering relates to the ROSTERING section, there is no mention of seniority in EITHER of these sections. You will find this in an entirely separate section of the award called SENIORITY, which IS NOT referred to in the LOA for a very good reason, because it was not agreed to at any stage.
If you refer back to the integration agreement you will see that it is quite specific that seniority for the allocation of flying will be decided between the parties (Q and A) and if it cannot be decided then it will go to the commissioner. So what is the problem? Why not just take it straight to Palmer? I think you know that answer to that.
Whilst it has been an ‘A’ aeroplane (for want of a better term) you have enjoyed rotating seniority. In other words, despite being more senior to you on the A list, the A pilots have had no more or less advantages than you have had. But as soon as the change takes place you can’t wait to relegate them to the depths of the Q datal system for years to come, I see this as a just a little self serving.
Do A pilots “deserve” the 330?
Did the Q pilots “deserve” the rapid expansion resulting from 767 domestic flying?
Did the A300 pilots “deserve” to be forced back to the 737?
The answer to all these questions, and many more, is – WHO CARES! The rules are applied as written, not imagined, so stop being so childish and just get on with it.
Old Pollution had a farm E - I - E - I - O
No pilot has been demoted to F/O on any type after failure of the A330 command course, exaggerating just confirms any suspicions that you are a fool.
As others have alluded to the failure rate of the A330 is nowhere near the levels of the 767 some years ago. All of these 767 candidates were “Real” Qantas pilots, yet that didn’t help them.
There are also a number of Q Captains who have had trouble on the Bus, and are now regularly failing their recurrent sims.
Some Q pilots have even managed to fail the 737 command course, despite the excellent training (not checking) and the willingness to help anyone who needs it with extra sectors (a willingness that seems to be missing on the 330, unless you are a Q pilot!) etc…
I don’t make assumptions as to why these guys fail, just observe that it does happen. It might be best if you do the same.
Enough about that…
Regarding the integration. The agreement makes it quite clear.
With a “NEW” type ALL conditions are up for grabs. Seriously you should read it. There is no clause which says it will be on the SH award during the Domestic phase and then the LH award for international. That was something that was agreed between the parties (Q and A) and resulted in the Letter of Agreement. This is proven by the FACT that the 330 is NOT on the SH award and NEVER has been.
Now that we have that established, the next item is what should happen now.
Well the agreed LOA says that when trigger 2 happens then AIPA can elect to change to the LH Pay and Rostering system (It is not a switch to the LH award because the 330 is already on the LH award).
Now the key phrase here is the “LH Pay and Rostering system”. If you refer to the award you will see that Pay relates to the PAY section, and Rostering relates to the ROSTERING section, there is no mention of seniority in EITHER of these sections. You will find this in an entirely separate section of the award called SENIORITY, which IS NOT referred to in the LOA for a very good reason, because it was not agreed to at any stage.
If you refer back to the integration agreement you will see that it is quite specific that seniority for the allocation of flying will be decided between the parties (Q and A) and if it cannot be decided then it will go to the commissioner. So what is the problem? Why not just take it straight to Palmer? I think you know that answer to that.
Whilst it has been an ‘A’ aeroplane (for want of a better term) you have enjoyed rotating seniority. In other words, despite being more senior to you on the A list, the A pilots have had no more or less advantages than you have had. But as soon as the change takes place you can’t wait to relegate them to the depths of the Q datal system for years to come, I see this as a just a little self serving.
Do A pilots “deserve” the 330?
Did the Q pilots “deserve” the rapid expansion resulting from 767 domestic flying?
Did the A300 pilots “deserve” to be forced back to the 737?
The answer to all these questions, and many more, is – WHO CARES! The rules are applied as written, not imagined, so stop being so childish and just get on with it.
Old Pollution had a farm E - I - E - I - O
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Gday, Bon. You may see the Jetscab pilots as you wish, but let me tell you, they (along with Jitcinnict) are a significantly greater threat to you and I as 'Q' pilots than the 'A' pilots are.
Yet we are doing ZERO to counter the threat. And there is the stoush from hell about this?
Just doesnt make sense...
Yorik is having a couple of days R&R whilst he learns the phase "JetStar" rather than the offensive term he has been using.
Woomera
Yet we are doing ZERO to counter the threat. And there is the stoush from hell about this?
Just doesnt make sense...Yorik is having a couple of days R&R whilst he learns the phase "JetStar" rather than the offensive term he has been using.
Woomera
Last edited by Woomera; 12th Jul 2004 at 11:12.
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I gave up after Jetconnect.
Subsequently at the Brighton RSL meeting the membership clapped the nice management chappie that helped to do us up the derriere. Never could figure that out. I can just imagine what he said when he reported back to Geoff how he was received.
"They clapped me Geoff!"
"Ah good says Geoff...continue the beatings"
Lets face it, the management treat AIPA (aka us) as pussies who will NEVER take a stand. The rely on us keeling over....and we do.
The A330 issue is one we just may??? be able to win.
Subsequently at the Brighton RSL meeting the membership clapped the nice management chappie that helped to do us up the derriere. Never could figure that out. I can just imagine what he said when he reported back to Geoff how he was received.
"They clapped me Geoff!"
"Ah good says Geoff...continue the beatings"
Lets face it, the management treat AIPA (aka us) as pussies who will NEVER take a stand. The rely on us keeling over....and we do.
The A330 issue is one we just may??? be able to win.