Dick threatens to sue AsA
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Brighton-le-Sands
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh dear, Atlas Shrugged,
You have been busy. Looks like you studied a little law. Too bad it has no relevance.
See if you can find anywhere in those fancy law books where it says that the priorities written in MATS have any head of power. I think you’ll find the only lawful priorities are in Sydney noise sharing legislation.
Nice try, anyway.
Oh, and I’m really impressed with your quote about complying with ATC instructions. Isn’t this putting the cart before the horse. Having the ability to be big brother doesn’t mean you should use it as an excuse for not providing a service when you can.
Wake up.
Now, me old mate ****su,
Show me any controller in Sydney that earns $62,500 a year, other than maybe some wet behind the ears fresh out of college kid.
Average base salary in Sydney must be around $110,000, and another $30k in O/T and E/D. And one Team Leader for every two controllers – so add T/L allowance. And I guess everyone in Sydney does OJTI. And then there’s the nice little rostered E/D scams you’ve been running for years.
And Statman.
Love the stats – I just love the stats.
Let’s see:
Number of VFR clearance requests in SY TMA for May, 2004: 592
Number of VFR clearances delayed in excess of five minutes awaiting clearance in SY TMA for May, 2004: 2
Number of VFR clearances refused in SY TMA for May, 2004: 3
But wait – you forgot the most important one: Number of VFR flights too scared to even ask for a VFR clearance, in case they wake up with a horse’s head – thousands.
And Ferris, maaaaate!
3 VFR clearances refused. How many IFR clearances refused. Bet the answer is, wait for it, getting close, just another second. I was right - none!
You guys are pathetic.
Sydney Approach. The world’s worst air traffic controllers.
You have been busy. Looks like you studied a little law. Too bad it has no relevance.
See if you can find anywhere in those fancy law books where it says that the priorities written in MATS have any head of power. I think you’ll find the only lawful priorities are in Sydney noise sharing legislation.
Nice try, anyway.
Oh, and I’m really impressed with your quote about complying with ATC instructions. Isn’t this putting the cart before the horse. Having the ability to be big brother doesn’t mean you should use it as an excuse for not providing a service when you can.
Wake up.
Now, me old mate ****su,
Show me any controller in Sydney that earns $62,500 a year, other than maybe some wet behind the ears fresh out of college kid.
Average base salary in Sydney must be around $110,000, and another $30k in O/T and E/D. And one Team Leader for every two controllers – so add T/L allowance. And I guess everyone in Sydney does OJTI. And then there’s the nice little rostered E/D scams you’ve been running for years.
And Statman.
Love the stats – I just love the stats.
Let’s see:
Number of VFR clearance requests in SY TMA for May, 2004: 592
Number of VFR clearances delayed in excess of five minutes awaiting clearance in SY TMA for May, 2004: 2
Number of VFR clearances refused in SY TMA for May, 2004: 3
But wait – you forgot the most important one: Number of VFR flights too scared to even ask for a VFR clearance, in case they wake up with a horse’s head – thousands.
And Ferris, maaaaate!
3 VFR clearances refused. How many IFR clearances refused. Bet the answer is, wait for it, getting close, just another second. I was right - none!
You guys are pathetic.
Sydney Approach. The world’s worst air traffic controllers.
"But wait – you forgot the most important one: Number of VFR flights too scared to even ask for a VFR clearance, in case they wake up with a horse’s head – thousands."
Too scared !?!?!?!?!?!?! scared of what ??
Too scared perhaps, because they really don't know what they are doing, where they are, or how to put together a request with approximately correct phraseology !
Too scared !?!?!?!?!?!?! scared of what ??
Too scared perhaps, because they really don't know what they are doing, where they are, or how to put together a request with approximately correct phraseology !
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Brighton-le-Sands
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ah, Slice,
Nice try. Refuse a clearance because the poor guy’s nervous. What happened to the SERVICE in Airservices Australia.
“Sorry mate, since you got one word wrong in the call, can’t give you a clearance – return to Bankstown, study a little harder, and come back in a few weeks”. Or “what do you mean you’re over the Sydney Harbour Bridge. Is that the Milson’s Point Side, or Circular Quay side? So, really you’re unsure of position. Sorry mate, due inability to navigate, clearance not available”.
Now, where was I:
28 across (6,8) Apples without your Chairman. Add it to shaken orchy on Wednesday but don’t get married. Mixed together, you get the world’s worst controllers.
Oh, nearly forgot you, Hempy.
No, I didn’t actually fail as a controller, though I know a few who should’ve. I actually work closer to you than you think. Just never felt like playing before.
Look behind you!
Nice try. Refuse a clearance because the poor guy’s nervous. What happened to the SERVICE in Airservices Australia.
“Sorry mate, since you got one word wrong in the call, can’t give you a clearance – return to Bankstown, study a little harder, and come back in a few weeks”. Or “what do you mean you’re over the Sydney Harbour Bridge. Is that the Milson’s Point Side, or Circular Quay side? So, really you’re unsure of position. Sorry mate, due inability to navigate, clearance not available”.
Now, where was I:
28 across (6,8) Apples without your Chairman. Add it to shaken orchy on Wednesday but don’t get married. Mixed together, you get the world’s worst controllers.
Oh, nearly forgot you, Hempy.
No, I didn’t actually fail as a controller, though I know a few who should’ve. I actually work closer to you than you think. Just never felt like playing before.
Look behind you!
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Back again.
Posts: 1,140
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
With the demise of NAS, the same old airspace problems are back. Despite the concerns that killed it, NAS had its good points and access by VFR aircraft over busy radar airspace was one of them. One of my concerns about Australian airspace as it stands is that we are progressing inexorably towards airspace that isolates RPT from all other traffic. Understandably, this would be ideal for the ATC services and the airline pilots, but it will be a huge log across the path of charter, private flying and other operations. If we continue on this path, we may as well just make Class C restricted airspace. By saying this, I mean that while some aircraft maybe refused clearance, many others are radar vectored to the extent that it is not worth the bother of asking for clearance in the first place.
Some people may think differently, but I don’t believe VFR aircraft should be procedurally locked out of certain areas of the country on the basis that they can’t compete with the presence and finances of the big boys; might get in their way of the jets; or controllers can’t handle the additional workload and the VFR pilot is the easiest one to bump off the list or vector out of the way.
The argument to fix the situation shouldn’t degenerate to finger pointing between controllers, airline pilots, biscuit makers and VFR backers. The discussion should be directed towards improvements. VFR aircraft need to be better accommodated over these populated areas.
Like the thinking behind the issuance of pilot licences, many people appear to believe airspace access is a privilege...I don’t! I believe both license issuance and airspace access are rights available to me as a citizen. (There’s a big difference between right and privelege.) If I meet certain criteria and obey the necessary rules and responsibilities, then there should be no reason why I cannot be allowed to utilize those rights. To be effectively locked out of a big swath of airspace because I happen to be VFR, or have a flight path different to those of the airlines, or might not be quite correct with my phraseology is just not fair. It is my airspace too and it appears the only way I might be able to utilize that airspace in the future is to purchase a ticket with an airline.
So where are the shortfalls such that ATC have difficulty handling VFR traffic? Flight plans, staffing levels, processes, TAAATS, noise sharing flight paths, airspace procedures, all of the above???? Submitting a flight plan certainly helps, but this is not always possible for VFR aircraft. VFR flying by its nature is fun and flexible. It seems to me that flight planning lodgment procedures are significantly more complicated than they should be for VFR aircraft. Would a separate ATC freq from the sector controller help where VFR pilots can call to have radtags allocated? Perhaps a form of flight following would help. I realize that additional costs might be involved, but it is not acceptable either that controllers continue to blow off VFR traffic because it is seen as a continual nuisance to RPT jets or is seen as the lowest rung on the ladder; either actual or perceived. Neither is it acceptable for people to argue that VFR pilots don’t pay and AsA needs to look after its paying customers. AsA is a guardian of a national resource. Historically, controlled airspace was implemented solely for IFR aircraft traffic services. AsA CTA services are provided for the benefit of IFR aircraft. This should not be an excuse to exclude or hinder access to VFR traffic.
I’m not blaming controllers, airline pilots or anyone in particular. Procedures need to be updated to include VFR traffic as much as safely possible. Some exclusion on safety grounds is acceptable, but people need to keep in mind that the inclusion of VFR traffic is an important and necessary part of any future change. It will be to the benefit of everyone in aviation. The USA does it well. It has its issues still, but it does provide a model towards which Australia can look.
Some people may think differently, but I don’t believe VFR aircraft should be procedurally locked out of certain areas of the country on the basis that they can’t compete with the presence and finances of the big boys; might get in their way of the jets; or controllers can’t handle the additional workload and the VFR pilot is the easiest one to bump off the list or vector out of the way.
The argument to fix the situation shouldn’t degenerate to finger pointing between controllers, airline pilots, biscuit makers and VFR backers. The discussion should be directed towards improvements. VFR aircraft need to be better accommodated over these populated areas.
Like the thinking behind the issuance of pilot licences, many people appear to believe airspace access is a privilege...I don’t! I believe both license issuance and airspace access are rights available to me as a citizen. (There’s a big difference between right and privelege.) If I meet certain criteria and obey the necessary rules and responsibilities, then there should be no reason why I cannot be allowed to utilize those rights. To be effectively locked out of a big swath of airspace because I happen to be VFR, or have a flight path different to those of the airlines, or might not be quite correct with my phraseology is just not fair. It is my airspace too and it appears the only way I might be able to utilize that airspace in the future is to purchase a ticket with an airline.
So where are the shortfalls such that ATC have difficulty handling VFR traffic? Flight plans, staffing levels, processes, TAAATS, noise sharing flight paths, airspace procedures, all of the above???? Submitting a flight plan certainly helps, but this is not always possible for VFR aircraft. VFR flying by its nature is fun and flexible. It seems to me that flight planning lodgment procedures are significantly more complicated than they should be for VFR aircraft. Would a separate ATC freq from the sector controller help where VFR pilots can call to have radtags allocated? Perhaps a form of flight following would help. I realize that additional costs might be involved, but it is not acceptable either that controllers continue to blow off VFR traffic because it is seen as a continual nuisance to RPT jets or is seen as the lowest rung on the ladder; either actual or perceived. Neither is it acceptable for people to argue that VFR pilots don’t pay and AsA needs to look after its paying customers. AsA is a guardian of a national resource. Historically, controlled airspace was implemented solely for IFR aircraft traffic services. AsA CTA services are provided for the benefit of IFR aircraft. This should not be an excuse to exclude or hinder access to VFR traffic.
I’m not blaming controllers, airline pilots or anyone in particular. Procedures need to be updated to include VFR traffic as much as safely possible. Some exclusion on safety grounds is acceptable, but people need to keep in mind that the inclusion of VFR traffic is an important and necessary part of any future change. It will be to the benefit of everyone in aviation. The USA does it well. It has its issues still, but it does provide a model towards which Australia can look.
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lowdown has hit the nail on the head. The airspace is a national assett, and as such should not be run as a quasi business enterprise in a vain hope of getting a few dollars and in the process shafting all the low volume users.
The real issue is about getting Airservices back to being a service provider for everyone - revenue neutral.
The real issue is about getting Airservices back to being a service provider for everyone - revenue neutral.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Back again.
Posts: 1,140
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No, the 'airspace' should not be run as a business. I have little problem with AsA running its activities as a business, provided they maintain a distinction between their services, the customers who require those services and the airspace in general and its access. Many people both within and outside AsA seem to get the boundaries between these items confuddled.
Edited in response to Tower of Terror.
Edited in response to Tower of Terror.
Last edited by Lodown; 10th Jul 2004 at 00:54.
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
While this business culture for essential service provision continues those who spend a dollar will always be listened to far more than those who spend 1 cent!! -
"Thats business son nothin' personal!"
"Thats business son nothin' personal!"
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Paradise
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Conspiracy theory #1
On the VOR versus dick smith forum dick accused the VOR representative of actually being a former Head ATC. In fact World's Worst is actually dick smith continuing to push his failed arguement in another guise. The pseudonym World's Worst is a reflection of the writers sad view of his own inadequacies - but why inflict them on the rest of us by continuing to present perceptions as facts, probably solicited from some disgruntled loser. Perhaps a visit to SY ATC would assist in clarifying some of your misconceptions. I believe that they welcome visitors - it probably means that they have nothing to hide.
On the VOR versus dick smith forum dick accused the VOR representative of actually being a former Head ATC. In fact World's Worst is actually dick smith continuing to push his failed arguement in another guise. The pseudonym World's Worst is a reflection of the writers sad view of his own inadequacies - but why inflict them on the rest of us by continuing to present perceptions as facts, probably solicited from some disgruntled loser. Perhaps a visit to SY ATC would assist in clarifying some of your misconceptions. I believe that they welcome visitors - it probably means that they have nothing to hide.
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀
Posts: 1,994
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In fact World's Worst is actually dick smith continuing to push his failed arguement in another guise
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 743
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Perhaps Worlds Worst could explain to us how much money has been saved since the November with this present system. Could he also explain why AirServices put a temporary radar in Launceston, but not in Alice Springs.
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀
Posts: 1,994
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good point Dog,
Funny thing about Launceston, they put in a temporary radar, but they don't put a screen in the tower
Or the Tea lady ....
Funny thing about Launceston, they put in a temporary radar, but they don't put a screen in the tower
Yeah, the way you're carrying on, you've got to be one of the cleaners!
