QF 737 AKL-SYD Turn Back (Insufficient Gas)
Guest
Posts: n/a
Sorry to contradict you on this one Stiffwing, but there WAS a B767 (Kap correct 1st time) that auto-landed in Perth.
The Learmonth incident was a different issue and to my mind was competently handled. There have been many similar events such as the YPLM incident that many carriers over the years have faced.
The crux of the matter is that sometimes the WX can change without warning and that crews must select alternatives that will result in a safe outcome.
However, the Autoland option in the the Perth incident was suggested by an individual who was not an operating crew member.
The Learmonth incident was a different issue and to my mind was competently handled. There have been many similar events such as the YPLM incident that many carriers over the years have faced.
The crux of the matter is that sometimes the WX can change without warning and that crews must select alternatives that will result in a safe outcome.
However, the Autoland option in the the Perth incident was suggested by an individual who was not an operating crew member.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
But amazingly 
the "sprogs" in the QF system - Yorik Crunt and his mate, Pete Conrad, are ignorant of these events.
WHY?
Isn't the idea SUPPOSED to be one of openly admitting and DISCUSSING past events, and trying to LEARN from them, rather than committing them over and over again, because they've been shoved under the carpet to save face??
the "sprogs" in the QF system - Yorik Crunt and his mate, Pete Conrad, are ignorant of these events.WHY?
Isn't the idea SUPPOSED to be one of openly admitting and DISCUSSING past events, and trying to LEARN from them, rather than committing them over and over again, because they've been shoved under the carpet to save face??
Kaptin,
whilst these guys CLAIM to be QF drivers, I wouldn't be taking such as gospel. Maturity levels shown by these two, and others, on this forum suggest otherwise.
I'd be very surprised if all QF drivers don't know about such, and maybe even discuss same in CRM courses.
whilst these guys CLAIM to be QF drivers, I wouldn't be taking such as gospel. Maturity levels shown by these two, and others, on this forum suggest otherwise.
I'd be very surprised if all QF drivers don't know about such, and maybe even discuss same in CRM courses.
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Skylab
Posts: 441
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Kap, I'm not ignorant of any event that I could learn about, and has safety issues that can be applied in day to day operations. I am well aware of the events being discussed here Kap, I don't feel an obligation to put my slant on it, I know the facts as I've read them, along with QF1 etc etc.
I gain info and discuss issues with people that I have respect for in this industry, and from people in the know. Many issues, and safety aspects, are, as you would know openely discussed on flightdecks in CRM, EP courses etc.
I don't feel that debating issues like this on pprune with you, a confirmed QF basher, is worthwhile.
Watchdog you don't even deserve a mention.
I gain info and discuss issues with people that I have respect for in this industry, and from people in the know. Many issues, and safety aspects, are, as you would know openely discussed on flightdecks in CRM, EP courses etc.
I don't feel that debating issues like this on pprune with you, a confirmed QF basher, is worthwhile.
Watchdog you don't even deserve a mention.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Sydney
Posts: 731
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ralph, there seems to be some confusion over the Perth incident. The 747 I alluded to happened over 20 years ago, and followed the events that stiffwing mentioned right up till he said it landed in LM. As far as I was aware they landed, autocoupled in PER.
I have never heard of a 767 having a similiar incident. What time frame are you talking of?
I have never heard of a 767 having a similiar incident. What time frame are you talking of?
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Usually Oz
Posts: 732
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Guys,
There have been multiple "sudden unforecast fog" incidents in PER involving QF over the years. Until they are able to better forecast [try a 44degC day with almost zero humidity to 50m in fog at 0400 the next day!!
how do you forecast that??
] fog in PER, it will continue!
To my certain knowledge there have been the B707 mention by me, the LM diversion and [ahem?!] letdown [aren't radio altimeters wonderful!], and a B747 autoland [happened but no ASIR by any party] at PER itself. No doubt more by QF and other operators [AN at BNE; sorry - don't mention the war!
]
Install Cat III and the debate is over. Equally, one supervisory chap from the old days [well known for his fuel conservation philosophies] said on the QF network PER is the one place we should ALWAYS carry an ALTN.
What this has to do with the subject of the thread is beyond me.
G'day
Beyond me too!!!
Woomera
There have been multiple "sudden unforecast fog" incidents in PER involving QF over the years. Until they are able to better forecast [try a 44degC day with almost zero humidity to 50m in fog at 0400 the next day!!
how do you forecast that?? ] fog in PER, it will continue!To my certain knowledge there have been the B707 mention by me, the LM diversion and [ahem?!] letdown [aren't radio altimeters wonderful!], and a B747 autoland [happened but no ASIR by any party] at PER itself. No doubt more by QF and other operators [AN at BNE; sorry - don't mention the war!
]Install Cat III and the debate is over. Equally, one supervisory chap from the old days [well known for his fuel conservation philosophies] said on the QF network PER is the one place we should ALWAYS carry an ALTN.
What this has to do with the subject of the thread is beyond me.
G'day
Beyond me too!!!
Woomera
Last edited by Woomera; 6th Jul 2004 at 02:14.
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Skylab
Posts: 441
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have no doubt that if it was a Polynesian aircraft in this thread, Kap would of been quiet.
Like his mate assdama, they can sit back and type one liners heckling others, but can't handle it in return.
Never let the facts stand in the way of a good story hey boys?
Like his mate assdama, they can sit back and type one liners heckling others, but can't handle it in return.
Never let the facts stand in the way of a good story hey boys?
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Wood's Hole (N4131.0 W07041.5)
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Woomera
Correct me please but aren't those verses you quoted (2 July) from "The Port Moresby Gliding Club", which goes back to 1979 when Kumul 2 (a BE200) was turned into a glider (I think Wes Guy was the glider captain)?
Maybe someone like Chimbu C might be able to post the entire poem (with the appropriate background information).
Correct me please but aren't those verses you quoted (2 July) from "The Port Moresby Gliding Club", which goes back to 1979 when Kumul 2 (a BE200) was turned into a glider (I think Wes Guy was the glider captain)?
Maybe someone like Chimbu C might be able to post the entire poem (with the appropriate background information).
Weapons_Hot
You obviously have fine taste in aviation literature. My apologies for pre-empting Woomera and Chimbu Chuck but you shouldn't be denied this classic any longer:
The Port Moresby Gliding Club
A group of young enthusiasts
Met at a local pub
To talk about a common love
The Port Moresby Gliding Club.
Their membership was very low
The running costs were high,
They needed some dramatic act
To catch the public's eye.
"I've got a good idea" said one
"Been planning it all day,
I'll try it out tomorrow
When coming back from Lae."
The flight to Lae was wonderful
The aircraft right on track,
They had no reason to suspect
The drama coming back.
Their business done, they climbed aboard
One had a bulging bilum
The Captain chuckled to himself,
"The last ten miles will thrill 'em".
This trick will have no impact
If I fill her up with fuel,
I'll take enough for top of climb
And glide in from Mount Yule.
They flew along as smooth as silk
With not a single jolt,
But as they got to Galley Reach
Both donks groaned to a halt.
The Captain said "Thank Christ they've stopped
They make a dreadful din,
I'll now complete this exercise
And glide the begger in."
A glider is a lovely thing
You see them everywhere,
Some metal, others wood and glue
But never a King Air!
With noses flat against the glass
The victims watched in horror,
And none of them had any doubt
They'd all be dead tomorra.
He held her on the centre line
He called the tower and said,
"For Christ's sake make me number one
I'm landing straight ahead."
He put it down right on the keys
and made sure he was clear,
Then smilingly he turned and said,
"I think we need a beer."
The Aero Club looks very nice
Looks like its just been painted,
But there was no-one to answer him
The bloody lot had fainted!
Wes turned and looked him in the eye
He said "Thank Christ that's ended!
It really won't surprise me
If your licence is suspended!
Those passengers we've got on board
Look like they're in a trance,
But now you must excuse me
'Cos I think I've shat my pants!"
When Joe Wal heard it on the 'phone
His hands flew to his head,
His eyes stood out like organ stops
"Damn me" was all he said.
But when heard the details
Of this history making flight,
His eyes lit up with interest
And he thought of it all night.
For Joe has always longed to fly
Although it made him dizzy,
But this bloke here could show him how
On days he wasn't busy.
So Joe signed up on the spot
They headed for the pub,
Now Joe's the latest member
Of the Moresby Gliding Club.
Sir Julius picked up his 'phone and heard
A voice known far and wide,
"This Grumman that arrives next month
- I wonder how that glides?"
PS. I suspect there is another version. I came by a copy not long after the incident but subsequently lost it. This version isn't exactly as I remember it!
You obviously have fine taste in aviation literature. My apologies for pre-empting Woomera and Chimbu Chuck but you shouldn't be denied this classic any longer:
The Port Moresby Gliding Club
A group of young enthusiasts
Met at a local pub
To talk about a common love
The Port Moresby Gliding Club.
Their membership was very low
The running costs were high,
They needed some dramatic act
To catch the public's eye.
"I've got a good idea" said one
"Been planning it all day,
I'll try it out tomorrow
When coming back from Lae."
The flight to Lae was wonderful
The aircraft right on track,
They had no reason to suspect
The drama coming back.
Their business done, they climbed aboard
One had a bulging bilum
The Captain chuckled to himself,
"The last ten miles will thrill 'em".
This trick will have no impact
If I fill her up with fuel,
I'll take enough for top of climb
And glide in from Mount Yule.
They flew along as smooth as silk
With not a single jolt,
But as they got to Galley Reach
Both donks groaned to a halt.
The Captain said "Thank Christ they've stopped
They make a dreadful din,
I'll now complete this exercise
And glide the begger in."
A glider is a lovely thing
You see them everywhere,
Some metal, others wood and glue
But never a King Air!
With noses flat against the glass
The victims watched in horror,
And none of them had any doubt
They'd all be dead tomorra.
He held her on the centre line
He called the tower and said,
"For Christ's sake make me number one
I'm landing straight ahead."
He put it down right on the keys
and made sure he was clear,
Then smilingly he turned and said,
"I think we need a beer."
The Aero Club looks very nice
Looks like its just been painted,
But there was no-one to answer him
The bloody lot had fainted!
Wes turned and looked him in the eye
He said "Thank Christ that's ended!
It really won't surprise me
If your licence is suspended!
Those passengers we've got on board
Look like they're in a trance,
But now you must excuse me
'Cos I think I've shat my pants!"
When Joe Wal heard it on the 'phone
His hands flew to his head,
His eyes stood out like organ stops
"Damn me" was all he said.
But when heard the details
Of this history making flight,
His eyes lit up with interest
And he thought of it all night.
For Joe has always longed to fly
Although it made him dizzy,
But this bloke here could show him how
On days he wasn't busy.
So Joe signed up on the spot
They headed for the pub,
Now Joe's the latest member
Of the Moresby Gliding Club.
Sir Julius picked up his 'phone and heard
A voice known far and wide,
"This Grumman that arrives next month
- I wonder how that glides?"
PS. I suspect there is another version. I came by a copy not long after the incident but subsequently lost it. This version isn't exactly as I remember it!
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Aus
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Back to the thread itself for any of you so called experts there are may variaions to any fuel load ordered by the captain but there is only two that really count, legal and flight fuel. Does the fuel load meet legal requirements prior to engine start because after start all variable reserve is considered to be used. Planning under most airlne SOPS will impose additional restrictions maybe not found in azzie regs. Note that it is not unusual to depart an airport and not meet the legal requirements to the destination(this does happen on the 737) by flying to a DPA and having a nominated alternate at this point, using infligt replanning to make destination legally.No one would or should (unless they are a complete moron)leave the gate without flight fuel plus reserves as the FMC would bring up a warning to this effect. This said the person that returns because he/she does not have enough fuel for whatever reason sould be applauded as should the person that makes a missed approach because they are not stable etc etc. Professionalism is about the safe operation of any aircraft, recognizing that we are all fallible. To be able to admit that we make mistakes withoout fear of loosing our jobs (as it is in QF) is good policy and can only lead to a better pilot as it allows others to learn from our mistakes
Rember to err is human
Rember to err is human
we read here!
