Qantas pilots charged over 'reckless' takeoff
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I believe ther eis only one senario
They began the take off roll and somewhere just from say 80 knots above the lights went out. It would have been safer to continue the take off roll. Period. End of story.
Hang on. Wait. I hear something. It's a muffled non comprehendable sound. Was that a fart? No hang on I think Petey Conrod just thought of something. No. Hang on. um. Maybe. Wait for it. Peteeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!
You stink Petey!!!
They began the take off roll and somewhere just from say 80 knots above the lights went out. It would have been safer to continue the take off roll. Period. End of story.
Hang on. Wait. I hear something. It's a muffled non comprehendable sound. Was that a fart? No hang on I think Petey Conrod just thought of something. No. Hang on. um. Maybe. Wait for it. Peteeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!
You stink Petey!!!
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The Capt is now over 60, so I would guess he is not flying anymore anyway ....
Karrank, heres another possibility.
Late night, last sector of a 'big day' doing your best to get back towards schedule. Your parked on a foodlit ramp facing towards the terminal when you briefed(and glanced out of the window at the lights and sock) the lights were on at the time. There is a stuff up on the 'trim sheet' and your waiting an extra 10 mintues, there are some other distractions. Eventually your away, it's an MBZ and this is different but the aerodrome is fairly familiar. As your turning off the ramp for the parallel taxiway you switch the taxi lights on, there aren't many buildings or other lights in the area and all the markings and lights are reflecting from the taxi lighting, your concentration is on keeping the centreline, tonight is a bit harder but you still haven't realised. Remember it's late, it's been a long day and you can't wait to get back. The FO suddenly gets busy talking to and sorting out traffic/clearance on the radio his eyes are 'in' the cockpit as he writes this down, the Captain is thinking about the crappy wx in ML. As they enter the runway the rest of the aircraft lighting is switched on, now it's really bright, they can see lights down the centreline and along the edge all reflecting no worries as they commence the rolling take-off. Everything looks in place so far, tracking the runway centreline, PNF has eyes on the engine instruments and ASI, 'V1....rotate'. As PF rotates and looks outside as part of the scan he now realises something different. The 'big picture' isn't what he expects, ooooops no runway lights in the corner of his eye. Oh well too late now, 'gear up', keep climbing.
I very much doubt they would have gone 'knowingly' without runway lighting. (I like your defence, swh)
Now, if they did. I would have loved to have heard the brief for a return to land, although there is an ILS
.
No one is perfect, human error, lessons learn't, FCOM ammendment on it's way, case closed.
Safe flying, hoss
Late night, last sector of a 'big day' doing your best to get back towards schedule. Your parked on a foodlit ramp facing towards the terminal when you briefed(and glanced out of the window at the lights and sock) the lights were on at the time. There is a stuff up on the 'trim sheet' and your waiting an extra 10 mintues, there are some other distractions. Eventually your away, it's an MBZ and this is different but the aerodrome is fairly familiar. As your turning off the ramp for the parallel taxiway you switch the taxi lights on, there aren't many buildings or other lights in the area and all the markings and lights are reflecting from the taxi lighting, your concentration is on keeping the centreline, tonight is a bit harder but you still haven't realised. Remember it's late, it's been a long day and you can't wait to get back. The FO suddenly gets busy talking to and sorting out traffic/clearance on the radio his eyes are 'in' the cockpit as he writes this down, the Captain is thinking about the crappy wx in ML. As they enter the runway the rest of the aircraft lighting is switched on, now it's really bright, they can see lights down the centreline and along the edge all reflecting no worries as they commence the rolling take-off. Everything looks in place so far, tracking the runway centreline, PNF has eyes on the engine instruments and ASI, 'V1....rotate'. As PF rotates and looks outside as part of the scan he now realises something different. The 'big picture' isn't what he expects, ooooops no runway lights in the corner of his eye. Oh well too late now, 'gear up', keep climbing.
I very much doubt they would have gone 'knowingly' without runway lighting. (I like your defence, swh)
Now, if they did. I would have loved to have heard the brief for a return to land, although there is an ILS
.No one is perfect, human error, lessons learn't, FCOM ammendment on it's way, case closed.
Safe flying, hoss
Last edited by hoss; 8th Jun 2004 at 21:55.
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Launceston has no centre line lights or reflectors. Just runway edge and the vasis. The cockpit is dark or at least should be. I can not see how you could line up and not notice how bloody dark it would be without runway edge lighting. The lights must have gone off during take off.
There is no way an airline crew would take off with no aerodrome lighting. There is no reason to.
There is no way an airline crew would take off with no aerodrome lighting. There is no reason to.
Last edited by commander adama; 8th Jun 2004 at 20:27.
The_Cutest_of_Borg,
My apologies, I thought that since Qantas terminated Capt. Christie for turning 60 years of age, and won the appeal against the Workplace Relations Act for terminating the individual’s employment as a result of his age, it was common practice in Qantas.
Got to love the level playing field.
My apologies, I thought that since Qantas terminated Capt. Christie for turning 60 years of age, and won the appeal against the Workplace Relations Act for terminating the individual’s employment as a result of his age, it was common practice in Qantas.
Got to love the level playing field.
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There is no way an airline crew would take off with no aerodrome lighting.
I have in the past few years witnessed two RPT aircraft depart without the runways lights on. In both cases the crews did not know they were not on when subsequently questioned by their CP. Good landing lights these days and often plenty of distractions as mentioned in a previous post. I suspect it occurs more often than we might care to believe and does not get reported (to CASA) because the crew are unaware or there was no witness on the ground that thought it worth it.... Self reporting thru CAIR used to be an option.....but??
Believe it or not (last time I looked), there is no Reg that says you have to depart with runway lights on....!
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They probably did switch the lights on prior to taxy but because of the pace that they seem to taxy at the lights would have timed out.
Pretend you have schedule to keep guys....pleeeeeeze
Ahab
Pretend you have schedule to keep guys....pleeeeeeze
Ahab
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commander assdama, your scenarios are interesting, pity you have no knowledge about the event. Here's an idea, why don't you wait till it's all over and find out the real story instead of speculating on a forum you know certain media look at.
Your comments are like your lower intestine assdama - stinking and loaded with danger.
assdama - "you lost that lovin feelin"?
Your comments are like your lower intestine assdama - stinking and loaded with danger.
assdama - "you lost that lovin feelin"?
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Anyone checked their Jepps to see what the take-off mins are for no REIL and no HIRL and no CL?
What a great idea if they'd had an efato - or an uncontrollable engine fire - and HAD to return!
What a great idea if they'd had an efato - or an uncontrollable engine fire - and HAD to return!
CAIR System
This system was used and abused by many so when ATSB was challenged to also admininister a self reporting system with no additional funding there was a strong reason to drop it.
https://www.atsb.gov.au/aviation/asrs/index.cfm
Seems resources weren't a problem for the other section of ATSB:
http://www.atsb.gov.au/marine/cmrs/index.cfm
Try and figure a bureacracy. How much has the former BASI functions been diluted and resources removed since it became a part of ATSB????????????
Frank Burden
The attainment of wisdom is a life long pursuit
Following an amendment to the Civil Aviation Act 1988 and associated regulations, a new voluntary and confidential aviation reporting system introduced by the Government, entitled the Aviation Self Reporting Scheme (ASRS), commences operation on 21 February 2004. Within the ATSB the ASRS replaces the Confidential Aviation Incident Reporting (CAIR) scheme. CAIR has been in place in BASI and the ATSB since 1988 and has served the industry well. However, there is an excellent level of mandatory incident reporting to the ATSB and operators have developed new confidential reporting schemes as part of their safety management systems. CAIR resources have been redirected within the ATSB to the new ASRS.
Seems resources weren't a problem for the other section of ATSB:
On 20 May 2004, the Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB) will start operating a Confidential Marine Reporting Scheme (CMRS) under the Navigation (Confidential Marine Reporting Scheme) Regulations 2004 (the Regulations). The aim of the scheme is to improve safety in Australian waters by enabling the ATSB to receive, assess and act on confidential reports to prevent or reduce the risks of marine accidents.
Try and figure a bureacracy. How much has the former BASI functions been diluted and resources removed since it became a part of ATSB????????????
Frank Burden
The attainment of wisdom is a life long pursuit
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Considering this is an ongoing criminal court proceeding, it's probably best not to comment or speculate too much on what occurred... Speculation may be interesting, but there is a chance it could damage the defence.
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sub judice
It should be remembered that this forum is published - or broadcast in the public domain.
Some comments are close to "sub judice" - under which a court can find those who publish comments which could be seen to influence a court case, can be found in contempt of court.
Timmeeee - that was quite an attack on the media.
But, you should remember that all journalists are not members of the "gutter press", most are responsible and are only trying to print/broadcast the truth - in the public interest.
Yes ... there are those "ambulance chasers" who sensationalise stories for the sake of it - most from cheap TV current affairs programs or tabloid newspapers.
But, please don't tar all journo's with the same brush.
Remember, when your union/ association wants to air a grievance or dispute regarding airline management - the conduit they use is the media.
Good guys one day - bad guys another - you can't have it both ways ...
Some comments are close to "sub judice" - under which a court can find those who publish comments which could be seen to influence a court case, can be found in contempt of court.
Timmeeee - that was quite an attack on the media.
But, you should remember that all journalists are not members of the "gutter press", most are responsible and are only trying to print/broadcast the truth - in the public interest.
Yes ... there are those "ambulance chasers" who sensationalise stories for the sake of it - most from cheap TV current affairs programs or tabloid newspapers.
But, please don't tar all journo's with the same brush.
Remember, when your union/ association wants to air a grievance or dispute regarding airline management - the conduit they use is the media.
Good guys one day - bad guys another - you can't have it both ways ...
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The statement regarding no reg requiring the lights is correct. This incident is, however, an example of appalling airmanship (with a jet carrying paying passengers who are entitled to better), as noted by Kaptin M. Probably, the only means of bringing charges is via the total lack of due diligence under the Act.
Alidad - point noted.
Alidad - point noted.
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Casper, you're making assumptions. Unless you were there and saw it allegedly occur, or have spoken to the two pilots involved, you are completely unqualified to make such statements.
Again, this is a current criminal proceding, it would be best if Woomera locked the thread.
Again, this is a current criminal proceding, it would be best if Woomera locked the thread.