too much angst on this forum
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Yeah lot of angst out there. Hard for the average punter to sort it all out. Dick said this, Dick said that. Who's Dick these days anyway?
How about someone putting together a very basic summary of the whole NAS thing in a factual non-emotive manner so we can see what'e been going down.
Obviously not ****su tonka because he's given up in disgust and gone.
One question: What does a guy with an electronics shop and his own spaghetti sauce recipe have to do with aviation? Or an eye-doctor's wife and all the rest of them on the board?
How about someone putting together a very basic summary of the whole NAS thing in a factual non-emotive manner so we can see what'e been going down.
Obviously not ****su tonka because he's given up in disgust and gone.
One question: What does a guy with an electronics shop and his own spaghetti sauce recipe have to do with aviation? Or an eye-doctor's wife and all the rest of them on the board?
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angst....
There may be a bit of angst about all the changes to the airspace, but at least its generally constructive.
It could be worse...
Everyone could be talking about '89 again......
(pulls on flak jacket)
It could be worse...
Everyone could be talking about '89 again......
(pulls on flak jacket)
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Druglord.
In relation to the NAS/Dick Smith thing.
Loads of people are professionally castrated from saying what they really want to, so they vent on pprune.
Phat Boy.
Basic Summary of NAS;
Dick Smith has long had a dream.
He threatens the Member for Gwydir that he will run in his seat, and unseat him.
The Member for Gwydir (John Anderson) suddenly decides to appoint Dick Smith to 'reform' oz airspace.
Dick Smith suddenly announces that JA is a good bloke after all, and he won't be running against him. fill in the blanks at your liesure
Dick Smith tells the public that he is going to introduce the 'US system' to oz.
Dick Smith tells politicians/aviation managers that he will be able to cut loads off their budget, because he will really be slashing and burning air traffic services. He tells each segment of the industry what they want to hear. GA: Less costs and restraints, better service. Pollies: Less cost. Airlines: Cheaper avcharges. The Public: Safer, more jobs, worlds best practice etc.
Reality: Less restriction for VFR. Cost-not addressed. More dangerous. Less service.
Dick Smith begins implementing staggered introduction of some parts of the 'US system'. This involves a 'steamroller approach', because by this time some people in aviation have wised up that this is a service reduction exercise that will make the airspace a whole lot more dangerous, with no benefit for anyone except wealthy individuals who own planes. No opposition will be tolerated. No suggestion, no matter how sensible, will be given an audience. In fact, Dick orders that no safety cases even be conducted, lest they show up flaws and delay 'the dream'.
Many professionals from all walks of aviation start howling, including the fact that it isn't the 'US system'.
The 'incidents' begin happening.
The truth about what is happening starts getting out.
CASA, ASA etc start arse-covering.
Public pressure on the minister allows un-winding of 'the dream'.
And here we are. At the finger-pointing stage.
How's that? Copied?
In relation to the NAS/Dick Smith thing.
Loads of people are professionally castrated from saying what they really want to, so they vent on pprune.
Phat Boy.
Basic Summary of NAS;
Dick Smith has long had a dream.
He threatens the Member for Gwydir that he will run in his seat, and unseat him.
The Member for Gwydir (John Anderson) suddenly decides to appoint Dick Smith to 'reform' oz airspace.
Dick Smith suddenly announces that JA is a good bloke after all, and he won't be running against him. fill in the blanks at your liesure
Dick Smith tells the public that he is going to introduce the 'US system' to oz.
Dick Smith tells politicians/aviation managers that he will be able to cut loads off their budget, because he will really be slashing and burning air traffic services. He tells each segment of the industry what they want to hear. GA: Less costs and restraints, better service. Pollies: Less cost. Airlines: Cheaper avcharges. The Public: Safer, more jobs, worlds best practice etc.
Reality: Less restriction for VFR. Cost-not addressed. More dangerous. Less service.
Dick Smith begins implementing staggered introduction of some parts of the 'US system'. This involves a 'steamroller approach', because by this time some people in aviation have wised up that this is a service reduction exercise that will make the airspace a whole lot more dangerous, with no benefit for anyone except wealthy individuals who own planes. No opposition will be tolerated. No suggestion, no matter how sensible, will be given an audience. In fact, Dick orders that no safety cases even be conducted, lest they show up flaws and delay 'the dream'.
Many professionals from all walks of aviation start howling, including the fact that it isn't the 'US system'.
The 'incidents' begin happening.
The truth about what is happening starts getting out.
CASA, ASA etc start arse-covering.
Public pressure on the minister allows un-winding of 'the dream'.
And here we are. At the finger-pointing stage.
How's that? Copied?
Evertonian
too much angst on this forum
Too much angst? TOO MUCH ANGST???
Who the hell gave you the right to say there's too much angst on Dunnunda??? How dare you say such a thing!!!
(Only kidding :P)
Who the hell gave you the right to say there's too much angst on Dunnunda??? How dare you say such a thing!!!
(Only kidding :P)
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Druglord. As an "unbiased observer", the NAS debate on PPRuNe has been most informative, with all opinions, options and philosphies, from Dick Smith and the pro-NAS lobby, to Voices of Reason and the CivilAir perspective, canvassed and enthusiastically debated.
May I suggest that the debate on PPRuNe has been more wide ranging, involving more professionals and canvassing more issues and opinions, than the Government dedicated to the task?
Indeed, at the end of the day, PPRuNe and you, the PPRuNe users, may well have greater impact on the future of Australia's air space management, than any other single entity or group.
More power to PPRuNe!!!
Woomera
May I suggest that the debate on PPRuNe has been more wide ranging, involving more professionals and canvassing more issues and opinions, than the Government dedicated to the task?
Indeed, at the end of the day, PPRuNe and you, the PPRuNe users, may well have greater impact on the future of Australia's air space management, than any other single entity or group.
More power to PPRuNe!!!
Woomera
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At the risk of incurring the wrath of the Woom's.
I sincerely hope that opinions expressed in any forum (including this one) are actually listened to and considered. Those opinions are not the only ones around and the final decision rests elsewhere. Certainly try to inflence policy etc but in the end we have to accept the "umpires decision", even if we think it wrong in some cases.
There are lots of experts here, or so they would like to think, there are also a considerable number of manure purveyors as well.
But that's our society for you.
I'm a little deaf, which wall did you want me to stand in front of Mr Woomera?
Disco Stu
Stu
Yes, indeed, the entire spectrum of opinion was aired on NAS. By very varying levels of professional competance. Or lack of.
You can lead a horse to water but can't make him drink. Unless it's Election Day.
Woomera
I sincerely hope that opinions expressed in any forum (including this one) are actually listened to and considered. Those opinions are not the only ones around and the final decision rests elsewhere. Certainly try to inflence policy etc but in the end we have to accept the "umpires decision", even if we think it wrong in some cases.
There are lots of experts here, or so they would like to think, there are also a considerable number of manure purveyors as well.
But that's our society for you.
I'm a little deaf, which wall did you want me to stand in front of Mr Woomera?
Disco Stu
Stu
Yes, indeed, the entire spectrum of opinion was aired on NAS. By very varying levels of professional competance. Or lack of.
You can lead a horse to water but can't make him drink. Unless it's Election Day.
Woomera
Last edited by Woomera; 7th Jun 2004 at 04:51.
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Yeah lot of angst out there. Hard for the average punter to sort it all out. Dick said this, Dick said that. Who's Dick these days anyway?
The professional pilots amongst us manage to keep up.
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yeah yeah well done. Now how about some facts on the changes. I mean a summary of before and after airspace conditions and ramifications of changes to.
The saga's been going on so long some people (like me) have forgotten how the whole thing started.
The saga's been going on so long some people (like me) have forgotten how the whole thing started.
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yeah righto......... 
So I'm lazy 
You expected........??
Anyway have you had a look at all that NAS crap? It's like my pile of amendments. It's grown WA-AAAY beyond what a mortal could ever hope to deal with.
So I'm lazy You expected........??
Anyway have you had a look at all that NAS crap? It's like my pile of amendments. It's grown WA-AAAY beyond what a mortal could ever hope to deal with.
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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I'm afraid that for my comprehension of NAS and all that has been said on these pages of Pprune re the subject, a phrase from the Goon Show springs to mind.....
"It's all rather confusing really"
You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.
"It's all rather confusing really"
You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.
Seasonally Adjusted
Ferris, good summary.
However you missed the bit about Dick blaming ATC for the Brisbane incident, then the VB crew, before labelling the ATSB a 'boys club'.
However you missed the bit about Dick blaming ATC for the Brisbane incident, then the VB crew, before labelling the ATSB a 'boys club'.
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Towering Q
All very well Towering Q, but your contributions to a succesful resolve to the issue of a poorly administered NAS is/are what, exactly?
Oh...that's right you've had a bad day at work again. It's time to kick the Dick Smith dog again! How productive.
Oh...that's right you've had a bad day at work again. It's time to kick the Dick Smith dog again! How productive.
Seasonally Adjusted
Wrong....I had a good day at work today. Everyday is a good day in GA. It's only going to get better when the NAS savings flow down to us.
My 'contribution' will come during the next Federal Election when I play my small part in relocating the Member for Gwydir to the opposition benches.
My 'contribution' will come during the next Federal Election when I play my small part in relocating the Member for Gwydir to the opposition benches.
