Origin Pacific survives (for now)
Join Date: Feb 1999
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stillalbatross:
At last, you are starting to make sense. Compare that with what you wrote earlier, and you can understand why I questioned your intelligence. Now that you have posted facts (at least as you see them) we can make progress.
I have just had a look at the Rules of the Union. If you are like 90% of the membership and don’t realise they exist, rule 5 (3) (b) refers. It says, in part: “...members ... entitled to ... representation in employment matters TO AN EXTENT DETERMINED BY THE BOARD OF MANAGEMENT ... " (my emphasis).
This means the lawyers, or anyone else, cannot say to you that you don’t have a case, (which is what I am presuming you are meaning in your post) they can only make representations to that effect to the Board of Management. The Board is then required to determine the extent to which assistance is given.
It is unclear as to whether this has happened, but it sounds to me like it didn’t happen.
Therefore, by your statement, the union is in breach of its own rules.
There is a prescribed procedure for dealing with this sort of thing - it is called a COMPLAINT.
The procedure is the same as making a COMPLAINT anywhere, with whoever. You call the number and say "I wish to make a COMPLAINT."
Naturally you may get shunted from pillar to post, but eventually you will be referred to someone who can DEAL with your COMPLAINT. Like the President. You do have the power (like any member) to be referred to the President. If you (as a member) ask to be referred to an elected official, the office staff are OBLIGED to refer you. They cannot deny you. Obviously, elected officials won't be in the office all the time, but they will receive your referral. I’m not just talking about any “ALPA Committee member” either.
Alternatively, you could WRITE to the President. In fact, I suggest you do JUST THAT. It is what he is there for.
Of course, all this takes time and effort, and the natural reaction is "well, I pay my fees; I should not have to do this, and be subjected to this cr@p." And you'd be right.
Problem is, it happens with the phone company, the electricity/gas company, your gym, that bast@rd at the garage who tried to charge $400 for a brake repair (as happened to me recently) - it goes on and on.
Do you then do nothing except whinge on the consumers' equivalent of PPRuNe and leave it at that? No. You fight the bast@rds that p!ss you off, you don't whinge about them.
But that's what you did, just whinged on PPRuNe.
Sitting around “9-5 for 3 days waiting”, while abhorrent, doesn’t qualify as fighting. That only increases your chances of developing haemorrhoids. That's called terrorism.
Making a formal complaint, however, does.
That is why I got p!ssed off at you.
Your story is still incomplete. At least that is better than your previous effort, which so completely lacked substance that I was forced, in turn, to p!ss you off in order to have a chance at getting at what was REALLY on your mind.
PPRuNers are entitled to get both sides of the story, and that is what I was doing (or attempting to do). I see there is still more work to do on that, because, if your story is true, and I have no reason to doubt it, then it must be investigated further. I will do that by firstly emailing your posts – the sensible bits of them – to the Principal Officers.
Now, are you able to give me an approximate month/year your problem occurred? You can PM me with that if you wish. I will not need any other details at this stage. It sounds recent, which is of some concern.
In future, and this goes for everybody, if this happens to you, and you are (rightly so) p!ssed off, then treat the matter as for how you would make a complaint to anyone. Verbal messages are subject to all sorts of corruption, most of it accidental. Our brains/memories are the worst offenders. So get it in writing.
If the reply you get, in writing, is horseh!t, then feel free to post that so we can REALLY get to see if you were justified in your mindless vilification.
Only then would it not be mindless. Are you with me?
Because I’m with you.
dh
At last, you are starting to make sense. Compare that with what you wrote earlier, and you can understand why I questioned your intelligence. Now that you have posted facts (at least as you see them) we can make progress.
I have just had a look at the Rules of the Union. If you are like 90% of the membership and don’t realise they exist, rule 5 (3) (b) refers. It says, in part: “...members ... entitled to ... representation in employment matters TO AN EXTENT DETERMINED BY THE BOARD OF MANAGEMENT ... " (my emphasis).
This means the lawyers, or anyone else, cannot say to you that you don’t have a case, (which is what I am presuming you are meaning in your post) they can only make representations to that effect to the Board of Management. The Board is then required to determine the extent to which assistance is given.
It is unclear as to whether this has happened, but it sounds to me like it didn’t happen.
Therefore, by your statement, the union is in breach of its own rules.
There is a prescribed procedure for dealing with this sort of thing - it is called a COMPLAINT.
The procedure is the same as making a COMPLAINT anywhere, with whoever. You call the number and say "I wish to make a COMPLAINT."
Naturally you may get shunted from pillar to post, but eventually you will be referred to someone who can DEAL with your COMPLAINT. Like the President. You do have the power (like any member) to be referred to the President. If you (as a member) ask to be referred to an elected official, the office staff are OBLIGED to refer you. They cannot deny you. Obviously, elected officials won't be in the office all the time, but they will receive your referral. I’m not just talking about any “ALPA Committee member” either.
Alternatively, you could WRITE to the President. In fact, I suggest you do JUST THAT. It is what he is there for.
Of course, all this takes time and effort, and the natural reaction is "well, I pay my fees; I should not have to do this, and be subjected to this cr@p." And you'd be right.
Problem is, it happens with the phone company, the electricity/gas company, your gym, that bast@rd at the garage who tried to charge $400 for a brake repair (as happened to me recently) - it goes on and on.
Do you then do nothing except whinge on the consumers' equivalent of PPRuNe and leave it at that? No. You fight the bast@rds that p!ss you off, you don't whinge about them.
But that's what you did, just whinged on PPRuNe.
Sitting around “9-5 for 3 days waiting”, while abhorrent, doesn’t qualify as fighting. That only increases your chances of developing haemorrhoids. That's called terrorism.
Making a formal complaint, however, does.
That is why I got p!ssed off at you.
Your story is still incomplete. At least that is better than your previous effort, which so completely lacked substance that I was forced, in turn, to p!ss you off in order to have a chance at getting at what was REALLY on your mind.
PPRuNers are entitled to get both sides of the story, and that is what I was doing (or attempting to do). I see there is still more work to do on that, because, if your story is true, and I have no reason to doubt it, then it must be investigated further. I will do that by firstly emailing your posts – the sensible bits of them – to the Principal Officers.
Now, are you able to give me an approximate month/year your problem occurred? You can PM me with that if you wish. I will not need any other details at this stage. It sounds recent, which is of some concern.
In future, and this goes for everybody, if this happens to you, and you are (rightly so) p!ssed off, then treat the matter as for how you would make a complaint to anyone. Verbal messages are subject to all sorts of corruption, most of it accidental. Our brains/memories are the worst offenders. So get it in writing.
If the reply you get, in writing, is horseh!t, then feel free to post that so we can REALLY get to see if you were justified in your mindless vilification.
Only then would it not be mindless. Are you with me?
Because I’m with you.
dh
Last edited by deadhead; 23rd May 2004 at 21:14.
Join Date: May 2003
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Deadhead, I will take it up with the union myself when I have a bit of spare time on my hands and Pm you or post here the results. It isn't recent enough to really matter any more and nothing that they do now is going to alter what or where I am now with my career. My point in first posting was to try to ensure that the same treatment wasn't dished out to the OP guys and girls, some of whom have been through redundancy more than once. Sorry I had to hijack the thread and drag it through three pages in order to do it.
Crack, taking on your employer in the tiny world that is NZ aviation is bad enough without thinking about the consequences of taking on the union as well. Irrespective of whether I had a valid complaint or not it is easy to see from some of the replies here that I would have been vilified.
MOR good on you. You obviously understood your terms of employment better than I understood mine.
Crack, taking on your employer in the tiny world that is NZ aviation is bad enough without thinking about the consequences of taking on the union as well. Irrespective of whether I had a valid complaint or not it is easy to see from some of the replies here that I would have been vilified.
MOR good on you. You obviously understood your terms of employment better than I understood mine.
Join Date: Feb 1999
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Thank you stillalbatross, and good luck with it. I always knew we were on the same side, it is good to get an affirmation of that though. As for the troops at OPAL, make no mistake - they will be catered for to the fullest extent possible - or if not, call ALPA for a set of rules!
dh
dh
Join Date: Mar 2004
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What's happened to the conair J41 guy's? are they just be waiting for other J41 driver's to leave, herd that the 41 feet was running fairly lean even before the QF code share deal went sour, diden't OPAL recently run a couple ground course's? maybe wont be to long till the guy's will be getten the call up from the g/c
Read in the paper the other day that origin may have investors any news on that,and then there's the DHL/NZ Post (Origin/Airwork) tie up wonder what's happening there...........
Read in the paper the other day that origin may have investors any news on that,and then there's the DHL/NZ Post (Origin/Airwork) tie up wonder what's happening there...........
Join Date: Jan 2004
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The conair J41 guys have had their conair contracts cancelled/ not renewed, no job offers from origin at all. I beleive 2 have gone to eagle and a few others had already had a yes letter from Mt Cook. The Boys who did the course's shortly before it went bad will just have to wait.
Join Date: Mar 2003
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Ohhhh... Eagle won't like that!!!! Serves them right!!!! 
Don't suppose that these two were any of the ones offered Mt. Cook interviews? One would assume they would have had something lined up.... If not... GOOD ON YA!!!!!!! Don't know of too many people that would be keen on stepping down from an ATR or J41 (whatever they were on) to a B1900 and another 18 month bond! (Could be 12... I have no idea)
Don't suppose that these two were any of the ones offered Mt. Cook interviews? One would assume they would have had something lined up.... If not... GOOD ON YA!!!!!!! Don't know of too many people that would be keen on stepping down from an ATR or J41 (whatever they were on) to a B1900 and another 18 month bond! (Could be 12... I have no idea)
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I know 2 capt's who went for eagle course's, If eagle turned any of them down then well it's eagle's loss. I beleive the bulk of the guys going to Mt cook had been on the ATR and all those going to eagle are from the J41 fleet.
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Captains from a J41... to a Co position on a B1900? 
Shorely Origin would eventually hire them back under the Origin banner instead of Conair? Keep the command that way, instead of jumping at the end of a long FO list... Or does it not work like my simple mind does? What about moving to the J31 fleet for these guys? Anything's gotta be better than going back to a Co... well unless it's a bigger/better machine... which a B1900 is not... (in my opinion)
Shorely Origin would eventually hire them back under the Origin banner instead of Conair? Keep the command that way, instead of jumping at the end of a long FO list... Or does it not work like my simple mind does? What about moving to the J31 fleet for these guys? Anything's gotta be better than going back to a Co... well unless it's a bigger/better machine... which a B1900 is not... (in my opinion)
