B757 Crews for "Australian Challenge Airways"
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You know some of you guys are an embarrassment to your profession. What was once a relatively unique and informative web-site has now become a cheap and nasty chat room - but I guess you all know that now. Some of you might take the time to read the forums in other parts of the world - at least they handle themselves with some sense of professionalism.
I suppose it's hard enough to keep every subscriber in check, but when the so-called moderator, charged with trying to maintain some sort of order, also involves himself in the innuendo and bad-mouthing then quite frankly its time for the rats to leave the sinking ship.
For the record, and it took me maybe 30 minutes and 3 phonecalls, this is what I have gleaned on Mr Neil Hansford.
"He was the Executive Director-Ansett Air Freight Divisions and introduced the first 727-200 freighter RMX to Australia and increased AAF turnover by 240%.
Further he was the Managing Director of TNT International Aviation Services and launched the TNT overnight network across Europe where today it is the largest road and air freight network and TNT are the market leaders and operate a fleet of over 50 heavy jet aircraft."
..and this from an industry association on the letters after Hansford's name.." They aren't bought but awarded by Industry professional bodies for "eminance" and having very senior positions in major corporations and having made very significant contributions to industry. Whilst a person can apply (and pay a fee) for such accreditation these institutions assess the individual's deservedness to hold such titles."
But at the very bottom of it all the biggest issue is that here is an airline that has gone about its business quietly, and diligently (according to CASA comment in yesterday's AFR), not once bad-mouthed another organisation, not once used the media, and yet you round on it like it is the enemy. If any of you knew anything about the freight industry in Australia you would know that the business has been crying out for a domestic competitor for years, and internationally Australia has been unrepresented for over 30 years, save the freight carried on passenger aircraft.
Open your eyes fella's - your dancing like nobody's watching - for God's sake grow up.
I suppose it's hard enough to keep every subscriber in check, but when the so-called moderator, charged with trying to maintain some sort of order, also involves himself in the innuendo and bad-mouthing then quite frankly its time for the rats to leave the sinking ship.
For the record, and it took me maybe 30 minutes and 3 phonecalls, this is what I have gleaned on Mr Neil Hansford.
"He was the Executive Director-Ansett Air Freight Divisions and introduced the first 727-200 freighter RMX to Australia and increased AAF turnover by 240%.
Further he was the Managing Director of TNT International Aviation Services and launched the TNT overnight network across Europe where today it is the largest road and air freight network and TNT are the market leaders and operate a fleet of over 50 heavy jet aircraft."
..and this from an industry association on the letters after Hansford's name.." They aren't bought but awarded by Industry professional bodies for "eminance" and having very senior positions in major corporations and having made very significant contributions to industry. Whilst a person can apply (and pay a fee) for such accreditation these institutions assess the individual's deservedness to hold such titles."
But at the very bottom of it all the biggest issue is that here is an airline that has gone about its business quietly, and diligently (according to CASA comment in yesterday's AFR), not once bad-mouthed another organisation, not once used the media, and yet you round on it like it is the enemy. If any of you knew anything about the freight industry in Australia you would know that the business has been crying out for a domestic competitor for years, and internationally Australia has been unrepresented for over 30 years, save the freight carried on passenger aircraft.
Open your eyes fella's - your dancing like nobody's watching - for God's sake grow up.
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Have to agree ...
PO - well said mate. You have D&G summed up.
Wish the saddo tossers who write drivel on this site, would sod off and leave the informed comment to people that take pride in their work and can contribute positively to the industry, this website and particularly newcomers like ACA.
----
Shaker One
Wish the saddo tossers who write drivel on this site, would sod off and leave the informed comment to people that take pride in their work and can contribute positively to the industry, this website and particularly newcomers like ACA.
----
Shaker One
In defence of the moderator, the information about registered business and company names etc which he posted, is freely available in the public domain.
If this is what was objectionable to the new company (I don't recall any other comment, but I may be wrong here) then that is a bit odd.
Good luck to them! The more airlines and aircraft, the more jobs.
CS BA(Melb) ATPL (Aus) ATPL (NZ) MECIR
If this is what was objectionable to the new company (I don't recall any other comment, but I may be wrong here) then that is a bit odd.
Good luck to them! The more airlines and aircraft, the more jobs.
CS BA(Melb) ATPL (Aus) ATPL (NZ) MECIR
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With 805,554 "hits" on PPRuNe forums yesterday, 153,706 "hits" from the Australian and Pacific region (136,562 "hits" from Australia alone), PPRuNe is arguably the world's largest, most successful and most informative airline/aviation specific forum and, within Australia, probably attracts greater patronage than the major aviation magazines and newspaper supplements, combined.
I think we - PPRuNers and Moderators - must be doing something right!!
It is inevitable and natural that when PPRuNers get a "sniff" of new aviation operations and employment opportunities, they will ask questions. I can understand the scepticism of some, considering the rather parlous Australian aviation/airline industry growth (or lack of) and significant airline failures over the past decade or so, Compass I and II and Ansett being the more obvious. I accept too, there have been successes as evidenced by Qantas's fiscal performance in recent years and the outstanding success of Virgin Blue. These successful operations have been well capitalised and agressively managed.
Many Australian airline employees have been hurt financially or their careers severely disrupted and even prematurely terminated, often through no fault of their own.
The details Woomera posted were freely available in the public domain and were in response to legitimate questions asked in this thread.
This thread, like all PPRuNe forums, is being constantly monitored and moderated to ensure posts are in accordance with PPRuNe rules.
Woomera
I think we - PPRuNers and Moderators - must be doing something right!!
It is inevitable and natural that when PPRuNers get a "sniff" of new aviation operations and employment opportunities, they will ask questions. I can understand the scepticism of some, considering the rather parlous Australian aviation/airline industry growth (or lack of) and significant airline failures over the past decade or so, Compass I and II and Ansett being the more obvious. I accept too, there have been successes as evidenced by Qantas's fiscal performance in recent years and the outstanding success of Virgin Blue. These successful operations have been well capitalised and agressively managed.
Many Australian airline employees have been hurt financially or their careers severely disrupted and even prematurely terminated, often through no fault of their own.
The details Woomera posted were freely available in the public domain and were in response to legitimate questions asked in this thread.
This thread, like all PPRuNe forums, is being constantly monitored and moderated to ensure posts are in accordance with PPRuNe rules.
Woomera
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Woomera - before you claim the higher ground here, the number of hits on the D&G forum is exactly why the moderators need to maintain some objectivity, otherwise you will de-value your role and could be accused of maintaining double-standards. There has been much said about this issue on PPRUNE lately, particularly with regard to censorship. You can't censor with one hand, and then participate in innuendo with the other.
What your fellow moderator did yesterday was infer/allege/insinuate that Mr Hansford "purchased" the titles after his name. Mr Hansford is "fair game" to subscribers but not to moderators. Before your fellow moderator, or any PPRUNE moderator offers an opinion, particularly if it is of the negative, then he is more compelled to verify his facts than normal contributors - would you not agree? I would ask you this - would a Woomera make a derogatory comment about Godfrey or Dixon? I think not.
Everyone may be entitled to be sceptical, and not all new ventures succeed, but they don't deserve to be undermined by the uninformed comments of bitter spectators who know nothing of the facts (including Woomera). Oh and by the way, Australia is far from unique in its commercial aviation collapses, nor is it the worst - try reading the history of aviation in Europe and the USA.
You will note that the only contributions that were removed yesterday were Woomera's. I would suspect that if the airline had issue with the tone of the thread then the whole thread would have been locked out.
What your fellow moderator did yesterday was infer/allege/insinuate that Mr Hansford "purchased" the titles after his name. Mr Hansford is "fair game" to subscribers but not to moderators. Before your fellow moderator, or any PPRUNE moderator offers an opinion, particularly if it is of the negative, then he is more compelled to verify his facts than normal contributors - would you not agree? I would ask you this - would a Woomera make a derogatory comment about Godfrey or Dixon? I think not.
Everyone may be entitled to be sceptical, and not all new ventures succeed, but they don't deserve to be undermined by the uninformed comments of bitter spectators who know nothing of the facts (including Woomera). Oh and by the way, Australia is far from unique in its commercial aviation collapses, nor is it the worst - try reading the history of aviation in Europe and the USA.
You will note that the only contributions that were removed yesterday were Woomera's. I would suspect that if the airline had issue with the tone of the thread then the whole thread would have been locked out.
Last edited by Patriot One; 20th Feb 2004 at 10:42.
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Patriot One you imply the bulk of this topic is
Let me impart to you the facts as I see them:
Fact 1. An advertisement seeking EOI (Expressions of Interest) from qualified B757 / B767 aircrew is placed in Friday 13th Australian newspaper.
Fact 2. I tender an opinion (which I am entitled to ) stating a fact – the Airline has no AOC (which is still true to date).
Fact 3. I am then accused of being a “boofhead”.
Fact 4. Woomera provides information (which is freely available to the public) about the Company.
Fact 5. A link is provided to this Company’s website. Amongst a lot of incomplete information in the “Client highlights” :
LAUNCH OF A “WET LEASING” AIRLINE IN BAHRAIN TO SERVE THE REGION AND NORTH/WEST AFRICA
On behalf of European investors I have negotiate d the issue on an Air Operators Certificate and launch of a full maintenance facility to JAR 145 standards. This has involved the full supervision of the corporate structure, all statutory paperwork and tfull operational and engineering manuals in addition to the recruitment of key post holders. Additionally we have been involved in the presentation to potential client airlines plus attracting new opportunities for the company.
What Company would that be?
MANAGEMENT AND SUPERVISION OF A HEAVY EXECUTIVE JET ON BEHALF OF AN OFFSHORE FINANCIAL INSTITUTION
We were involved in the supervision of the acquisition and attachment to an AOC of a 10 seat near new Executive Jet for an offshore financial institution. Additionally we provide ongoing supervision of all contractors to ensure safe, secure operations.
Which Insititution would that be?
LAUNCH OF NEW AVIATION RELATED IT PROJECTS
Involved in the attraction of finance and equity partners for two major aviation related technology projects that are now being rolled out to the market. Serving as a Director of both companies.
What projects would they be?
there is also listed after the CEO’s name a number of letters. It was correctly pointed out that these letters were not achievements in the area of acadamia. No one implied they were insignificant or irrelevant, just they were not academic degrees.
Fact 6. You then select quotes about Mr Hansford from an article in the AFR by Tansy Harcourt. That’s fair enough but you left out a very important paragraph in that article:
I am not bitter Patriot One but I have been in this industry a very long time and have seen many Pilot’s get their hopes up over new start Airlines. There are plenty of rogues in this industry and thank God forums like Pprune and it’s subscribers can eventually weed out the “goodies” from the “baddies”.
Hopefully, ACA and Mr Neil Hansford are one of the “goodies”.
“uninformed comments of bitter spectators who know nothing of the facts”
Fact 1. An advertisement seeking EOI (Expressions of Interest) from qualified B757 / B767 aircrew is placed in Friday 13th Australian newspaper.
Fact 2. I tender an opinion (which I am entitled to ) stating a fact – the Airline has no AOC (which is still true to date).
Fact 3. I am then accused of being a “boofhead”.
Fact 4. Woomera provides information (which is freely available to the public) about the Company.
Fact 5. A link is provided to this Company’s website. Amongst a lot of incomplete information in the “Client highlights” :
LAUNCH OF A “WET LEASING” AIRLINE IN BAHRAIN TO SERVE THE REGION AND NORTH/WEST AFRICA
On behalf of European investors I have negotiate d the issue on an Air Operators Certificate and launch of a full maintenance facility to JAR 145 standards. This has involved the full supervision of the corporate structure, all statutory paperwork and tfull operational and engineering manuals in addition to the recruitment of key post holders. Additionally we have been involved in the presentation to potential client airlines plus attracting new opportunities for the company.
What Company would that be?
MANAGEMENT AND SUPERVISION OF A HEAVY EXECUTIVE JET ON BEHALF OF AN OFFSHORE FINANCIAL INSTITUTION
We were involved in the supervision of the acquisition and attachment to an AOC of a 10 seat near new Executive Jet for an offshore financial institution. Additionally we provide ongoing supervision of all contractors to ensure safe, secure operations.
Which Insititution would that be?
LAUNCH OF NEW AVIATION RELATED IT PROJECTS
Involved in the attraction of finance and equity partners for two major aviation related technology projects that are now being rolled out to the market. Serving as a Director of both companies.
What projects would they be?
there is also listed after the CEO’s name a number of letters. It was correctly pointed out that these letters were not achievements in the area of acadamia. No one implied they were insignificant or irrelevant, just they were not academic degrees.
Fact 6. You then select quotes about Mr Hansford from an article in the AFR by Tansy Harcourt. That’s fair enough but you left out a very important paragraph in that article:
“ In the aviation industry, it seems to be wise to be sceptical about people said to be on the verge of starting an airline, so it remains to be seen whether this one will get off the ground”
Hopefully, ACA and Mr Neil Hansford are one of the “goodies”.
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Partriot One:
I believe my comments yesterday, subsequently deleted by myself, were to the extent that the letters to which you refer are the result of paid membership of associations, rather than reflect academic achievement, gallantry or community service. This Woomera did not in any way, infer/allege/insinuate the titles were "purchased", merely responded factually to questions posted in this thread. I do not deny that a pre requisite to membership of those associations requires demonstrated achievement within their field of endeavour.
How do I know the meaning of the letters? Because for some years (until I allowed my membership to lapse), I was a financial member of the Chartered Institute of Transport and the Institute of Management. Undeniably, I benefited from that association.
The corporate registration details for Australian Challenge Airways are freely available in the public domain from the ASIC web site. Again, I posted those details in response to a specific question.
Moderators are subject to the same rules as any other subscriber to these forums.
“…..then he is more compelled to verify his facts than normal contributors - would you not agree?” As a moderator should lead by example, a prudent moderator would ensure the integrity of his facts – which I did. Would you care to advise where my post regarding the company registration or meaning of the letters FCIT and FAIM differed in any way from fact?
I did not suggest aviation in Australia had a better or worse record of failure than Europe or the USA. I correctly suggested many Australian aviation employees had suffered from aviation business failures beyond their control and were thus likely to be sceptical of new ventures – their own “due diligence”, if you wish.
Woomeri are drawn from a broad cross section of aviation and would, collectively, have many, many decades aviation experience. This Woomera is very familiar with the TNT Europe, Transcorp and PEAC operations. I agree, very successful freight linehaul operations were established.
Patriot, these forums do not permit unreasonable derogatory comments about any individual, however I can assure you Qantas, Virgin, CASA, ATSB, their management, the odd Minister and biscuit maker have all come in for their fair share of honest brick bats and bouquets over the years, without fear or favour.
Threads are moderated to the rules of PPRuNe, laws of libel and common decency; they have never been “censored” and definitely not for any commercial reason or consideration.
And there’s something I learnt very quickly and very early in my aviation career – all those who really succeeded had thick skins!
I am happy to close this thread if it offends you, but I see no justification in removing the thread from public view.
I wish Australian Challenge Airways every success in the future.
Woomera
I believe my comments yesterday, subsequently deleted by myself, were to the extent that the letters to which you refer are the result of paid membership of associations, rather than reflect academic achievement, gallantry or community service. This Woomera did not in any way, infer/allege/insinuate the titles were "purchased", merely responded factually to questions posted in this thread. I do not deny that a pre requisite to membership of those associations requires demonstrated achievement within their field of endeavour.
How do I know the meaning of the letters? Because for some years (until I allowed my membership to lapse), I was a financial member of the Chartered Institute of Transport and the Institute of Management. Undeniably, I benefited from that association.
The corporate registration details for Australian Challenge Airways are freely available in the public domain from the ASIC web site. Again, I posted those details in response to a specific question.
Moderators are subject to the same rules as any other subscriber to these forums.
“…..then he is more compelled to verify his facts than normal contributors - would you not agree?” As a moderator should lead by example, a prudent moderator would ensure the integrity of his facts – which I did. Would you care to advise where my post regarding the company registration or meaning of the letters FCIT and FAIM differed in any way from fact?
I did not suggest aviation in Australia had a better or worse record of failure than Europe or the USA. I correctly suggested many Australian aviation employees had suffered from aviation business failures beyond their control and were thus likely to be sceptical of new ventures – their own “due diligence”, if you wish.
Woomeri are drawn from a broad cross section of aviation and would, collectively, have many, many decades aviation experience. This Woomera is very familiar with the TNT Europe, Transcorp and PEAC operations. I agree, very successful freight linehaul operations were established.
Patriot, these forums do not permit unreasonable derogatory comments about any individual, however I can assure you Qantas, Virgin, CASA, ATSB, their management, the odd Minister and biscuit maker have all come in for their fair share of honest brick bats and bouquets over the years, without fear or favour.
Threads are moderated to the rules of PPRuNe, laws of libel and common decency; they have never been “censored” and definitely not for any commercial reason or consideration.
And there’s something I learnt very quickly and very early in my aviation career – all those who really succeeded had thick skins!
I am happy to close this thread if it offends you, but I see no justification in removing the thread from public view.
I wish Australian Challenge Airways every success in the future.
Woomera
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Woomera - nice response. Whether you believe it or not your comments (to use 146's words) imparted a derogatory opinion. I saw it, others saw it, and obviously the powers that be at PPRUNE saw it as they obviously told you to remove it. Your comments on the company status by way of ASIC were, I thought, well put and well intentioned. Subsequent postings were not, and given your response I believe now that you deserve the benefit of doubt. Done - now lets get on with the thread.
Bae146 - mate, I'm talking with the organ-grinder not the monkey. Your comments are ridiculous. You have had nothing but smart arse comments to say since you started posting on the thread, so please don't try to educate us on your righteousness.
As the saying goes "better to shut your mouth and be thought a fool, rather than open your mouth and leave no doubt". Remember, 156,000 plus Aussies a day a reading your ridiculous drivel.
By the way you can't "impart" "facts as you see them"...as you see them, given your absolute lack of knowledge, they are simply uninformed opinions. Geezus - and you fly planes!?!
Finally, I have yet to see anything in their pilot ad, the AFR article, the AIP release, or anything else that ever claimed that the referred web-site is that of Australian Challenge Airways - it has links to the CEO but it does not represent itself as that airline. Secondly, none of what I quoted was from the AFR article - read it again, but more importantly, if you had access to the AFR article maybe you should have used that to validate your comments instead of sounding like a kid in a playground.
God help us all if they day ever comes where we need people like you to "weed out" the goodies from the baddies ( they were the words you used weren't they?)
Bae146 - mate, I'm talking with the organ-grinder not the monkey. Your comments are ridiculous. You have had nothing but smart arse comments to say since you started posting on the thread, so please don't try to educate us on your righteousness.
As the saying goes "better to shut your mouth and be thought a fool, rather than open your mouth and leave no doubt". Remember, 156,000 plus Aussies a day a reading your ridiculous drivel.
By the way you can't "impart" "facts as you see them"...as you see them, given your absolute lack of knowledge, they are simply uninformed opinions. Geezus - and you fly planes!?!
Finally, I have yet to see anything in their pilot ad, the AFR article, the AIP release, or anything else that ever claimed that the referred web-site is that of Australian Challenge Airways - it has links to the CEO but it does not represent itself as that airline. Secondly, none of what I quoted was from the AFR article - read it again, but more importantly, if you had access to the AFR article maybe you should have used that to validate your comments instead of sounding like a kid in a playground.
God help us all if they day ever comes where we need people like you to "weed out" the goodies from the baddies ( they were the words you used weren't they?)
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P1, I do hope you are just an observer and not directly involved with ACA. People who are as sensitive to constructive criticism, as you seem to be, do not go very far in this industry.
Oh, and you can abuse me as much as you like, I have been in this industry a long time and am as tough as nails !
Oh, and you can abuse me as much as you like, I have been in this industry a long time and am as tough as nails !
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P1,
Please spare us your derogatory opinions and righteousness.
If it's too hot for you in the kitchen, then get out. I'm sure H has balls big enough to look after himself on this forum.
Please spare us your derogatory opinions and righteousness.
If it's too hot for you in the kitchen, then get out. I'm sure H has balls big enough to look after himself on this forum.
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“…….and obviously the powers that be at PPRUNE saw it as they obviously told you to remove it.”
Nope! Not correct.
Were you referring to the following details, freely available in the public domain?
Name: Australian Challenge Airways Pty Ltd
ACN: 105 241 227
ABN: 56 105 241 227
Type: Australian Proprietary Company, Limited by Shares
Registration Date: 24/06/2003
Next Review Date: 24/06/2004
Status: Registered
Locality of Registered Office: Sydney NSW 2000
FCIT = Fellow of the Chartered Institute of Transport
FAIM = Fellow of the Australian Institute of Management
I wish Australian Challenge Airlines every success!
Woomera
Nope! Not correct.
Were you referring to the following details, freely available in the public domain?
Name: Australian Challenge Airways Pty Ltd
ACN: 105 241 227
ABN: 56 105 241 227
Type: Australian Proprietary Company, Limited by Shares
Registration Date: 24/06/2003
Next Review Date: 24/06/2004
Status: Registered
Locality of Registered Office: Sydney NSW 2000
FCIT = Fellow of the Chartered Institute of Transport
FAIM = Fellow of the Australian Institute of Management
I wish Australian Challenge Airlines every success!
Woomera
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Speaking to an Air-Freight officianado last night, this individual seems to think that Chris Corrigan is somehow involved and that the company was set up for the carriage of Air-Freight.
Does this sound right? (without insulting someones sensibilities!).
If not just post a reply.
Does this sound right? (without insulting someones sensibilities!).
If not just post a reply.
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Can't see Chris Corrigan employing the services of an aviation consultant and when Patricks do move into the airfreight business they will recruit aircrew not just seek expressions of interest.
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Lame - according to the advert in the Australian newspaper the contact e-mail address is
[email protected]
Patriot
[email protected]
Patriot
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Gents- amazing read, this thread.
ACA will surely thank you for all this free publicity.
How did I get here?
I entered "TNT" in the search function, looking for info on TNT.
Your thread hit the top of a long list, and I decided to have a look.
Enough time waisted.
Max.
ACA will surely thank you for all this free publicity.
How did I get here?
I entered "TNT" in the search function, looking for info on TNT.
Your thread hit the top of a long list, and I decided to have a look.
Enough time waisted.
Max.
