Impulse Pilots - What A Deal!
Thread Starter
Impulse Pilots - What A Deal!
A "friend" divulged the following.
LCC was always going to be Impulse and QF management massaged them into a realiasation it was theirs. At times it was tough competiton with mainline but a sacrificing of a rise in conditions and pay for concrete seniority the benefit.
The deal also outmanoeuvred the possible threat from former AN 320 drivers.
Included in the deal the following-
1) Senoirity 1-130 to Impulse drivers including those retrenched.
2) The inevitable Direct Entry Captains will be asked to shift seats after a few years when junior Impulse pilots gain experience.
3) Qantas will pay for the conversion of all Impulse drivers' onto the 320( well done ).
4) Impulse Check & Training will be responsible for this role and not the rumoured exAN.
5) The LCC will be able to compete with other QF business, such as mainline & Australian, for new and expanded operations. My "friend" believed this to be Trans-Tasman.
6) If widebodies can eventually work there will be no restrictions.
7) Current over 60 Impulse pilots WILL be converted.
8) Overtime and efficiency will be renumerated bringing their pay above VB-just.
Opinions?
Here is mine anyway. These guys have stitched up a deal that has put their security ahead of conditions. I felt they could have gone for current pay plus 5% or 10%. QF Management played them beautifully and offered security etc.
I understand the Impulse guys a bit better now in consideration of the pretty solid long term security package for ALL THEIR MEMBERS. AIPA food for thought?
Considering an un-employed Impulse driver will now be a 320 skipper in 3 years! I would feel warm and fuzzy if I were in that group.
I have witnessed the expedience and self-serving nature of the Ansett Pilot Association and anecdotal of AIPA and long haul etc. So that is the nature of my positive sentiments.
Hopes!
Jetstar will provide an opportunity to Empire build for the Impulse pilots. Don't ignore the market as the QF/VB pilots have done.
It can bite.
Impulse pilots have their 320 training paid for. So now absorb some of the market! The 320 qualified is drying up real quick and doing this will stabilise/improve conditions abroad and in an abstract way at home! There will be Impulse attrition to better paid overseas jobs and consequential crew replacing pressures, which help in EBA's - SO LOOK AFTER THAT MARKET!
Think laterally! Management wont want this as to have you proven and replacable, by the inexperienced, a powerful weapon-89, VB etc.
Good luck and NO I don't want to work for you! Realise the market!
LCC was always going to be Impulse and QF management massaged them into a realiasation it was theirs. At times it was tough competiton with mainline but a sacrificing of a rise in conditions and pay for concrete seniority the benefit.
The deal also outmanoeuvred the possible threat from former AN 320 drivers.
Included in the deal the following-
1) Senoirity 1-130 to Impulse drivers including those retrenched.
2) The inevitable Direct Entry Captains will be asked to shift seats after a few years when junior Impulse pilots gain experience.
3) Qantas will pay for the conversion of all Impulse drivers' onto the 320( well done ).
4) Impulse Check & Training will be responsible for this role and not the rumoured exAN.
5) The LCC will be able to compete with other QF business, such as mainline & Australian, for new and expanded operations. My "friend" believed this to be Trans-Tasman.
6) If widebodies can eventually work there will be no restrictions.
7) Current over 60 Impulse pilots WILL be converted.
8) Overtime and efficiency will be renumerated bringing their pay above VB-just.
Opinions?
Here is mine anyway. These guys have stitched up a deal that has put their security ahead of conditions. I felt they could have gone for current pay plus 5% or 10%. QF Management played them beautifully and offered security etc.
I understand the Impulse guys a bit better now in consideration of the pretty solid long term security package for ALL THEIR MEMBERS. AIPA food for thought?
Considering an un-employed Impulse driver will now be a 320 skipper in 3 years! I would feel warm and fuzzy if I were in that group.
I have witnessed the expedience and self-serving nature of the Ansett Pilot Association and anecdotal of AIPA and long haul etc. So that is the nature of my positive sentiments.
Hopes!
Jetstar will provide an opportunity to Empire build for the Impulse pilots. Don't ignore the market as the QF/VB pilots have done.
It can bite.
Impulse pilots have their 320 training paid for. So now absorb some of the market! The 320 qualified is drying up real quick and doing this will stabilise/improve conditions abroad and in an abstract way at home! There will be Impulse attrition to better paid overseas jobs and consequential crew replacing pressures, which help in EBA's - SO LOOK AFTER THAT MARKET!
Think laterally! Management wont want this as to have you proven and replacable, by the inexperienced, a powerful weapon-89, VB etc.
Good luck and NO I don't want to work for you! Realise the market!
Last edited by Gnadenburg; 5th Dec 2003 at 15:43.
Impulse guys should print off the above post and frame it. VERY wise words indeed.
To me, the mainline guys were typified by Jake-the-muss coming on here with "It will be mainline because no-one else is good enough". COMPLETE head in the sand stuff. (I notice he's become VERY quiet).
The way forward is to stich up the deal, then go for incremental improvements. Management is by nature short sighted. If a moderate rise in pay and conditions will keep industrial harmony and ensure a profit THIS year, they will do it THIS year, and then again NEXT year. Little at a time, and don't price yourself out of the market.
Oh, and DON'T start an agressive campaign for a 29.7% pay rise in one go. It don't work.
I would add one thing though. If Jetstar is paying for it's pilots type ratings, and is instilling a seniority list, it is ALREADY breaking the low cost model. Ditto if it even CONSIDERING a second type and long haul ops. Interesting times...
To me, the mainline guys were typified by Jake-the-muss coming on here with "It will be mainline because no-one else is good enough". COMPLETE head in the sand stuff. (I notice he's become VERY quiet).
The way forward is to stich up the deal, then go for incremental improvements. Management is by nature short sighted. If a moderate rise in pay and conditions will keep industrial harmony and ensure a profit THIS year, they will do it THIS year, and then again NEXT year. Little at a time, and don't price yourself out of the market.
Oh, and DON'T start an agressive campaign for a 29.7% pay rise in one go. It don't work.
I would add one thing though. If Jetstar is paying for it's pilots type ratings, and is instilling a seniority list, it is ALREADY breaking the low cost model. Ditto if it even CONSIDERING a second type and long haul ops. Interesting times...
Thread Starter
Wiz
IMHO the seniority a masterstroke by Impulse pilots.
It has ensured a united pilot body, as all Impulse pilots have been looked after, aswell as outmanoeuvring the already Airbus qualified-whether they ex-AN or wherever.
QF would receive Airbus training credits so why not endorse Impulse crew?
QF is happy-super competitive wage structure.
Impulse pilots happy- it is their baby and no one elses. With the masterstroke of seniority!
Senior Impulse pilots may have been able to afford better conditions in negotiations. Am I a romantic and does it look as though they have looked after their entire pilot group? With the sacrifice of pay for seniority.
IMHO the seniority a masterstroke by Impulse pilots.
It has ensured a united pilot body, as all Impulse pilots have been looked after, aswell as outmanoeuvring the already Airbus qualified-whether they ex-AN or wherever.
QF would receive Airbus training credits so why not endorse Impulse crew?
QF is happy-super competitive wage structure.
Impulse pilots happy- it is their baby and no one elses. With the masterstroke of seniority!
Senior Impulse pilots may have been able to afford better conditions in negotiations. Am I a romantic and does it look as though they have looked after their entire pilot group? With the sacrifice of pay for seniority.
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Sorry to disappoint...but there isn't a chance in hell that QF will pay for Impulse Pilots to be trained on the A320.
Even if you ignore the obvious issues around cost, ask yourselves when was QF ever this generous.
I would say your "friend" is in dreamland - probably works for that other epitome of airline excellence for pilot conditions - VB.
Even if you ignore the obvious issues around cost, ask yourselves when was QF ever this generous.
I would say your "friend" is in dreamland - probably works for that other epitome of airline excellence for pilot conditions - VB.
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Patriot One
I will take your info the same as all the others that said it would be QF mainline pilots only. Uninformed dribble.
I can understand why the Impulse pilots signed up for Jetstar when you get spat on by their QF pilot buddies.
Who is laughing now you pompous gits.
I will take your info the same as all the others that said it would be QF mainline pilots only. Uninformed dribble.
I can understand why the Impulse pilots signed up for Jetstar when you get spat on by their QF pilot buddies.
Who is laughing now you pompous gits.
Patriot,
By choosing to go with Impulse as a vehicle, they committed themselves to training the existing crew. They can't sack them and employ rated pilots under industrial law.
Had they gone green fields they could have made a type rating a pre-requisite.
By choosing to go with Impulse as a vehicle, they committed themselves to training the existing crew. They can't sack them and employ rated pilots under industrial law.
Had they gone green fields they could have made a type rating a pre-requisite.
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QF will be doing all in its power to ensure as little training and seatswapping occurs.
Many commands will come from off the street and will be hesitant to leave the jobs they presently have (vietnam,dragon,silk etc) unless they stay LHS.
I am sure many inpulse drivers will be ready to jump up to the LHS of the bus - its not difficult to fly - but many will be short on experience.
Many commands will come from off the street and will be hesitant to leave the jobs they presently have (vietnam,dragon,silk etc) unless they stay LHS.
I am sure many inpulse drivers will be ready to jump up to the LHS of the bus - its not difficult to fly - but many will be short on experience.
You may have noticed on another thread that Emirates is having some difficulty attracting Direct Entry Captains, due mainly to the woeful pay and conditions being offered.
Emirates
It is good to see people finally digging their heels in. It's a pity it's not happening here!
RIP the salary & conditions of all pilots in Australia.
A short term gain by the greedy few at the expense of everyone who follows.
Has a familar ring to it!
Emirates
It is good to see people finally digging their heels in. It's a pity it's not happening here!
RIP the salary & conditions of all pilots in Australia.
A short term gain by the greedy few at the expense of everyone who follows.
Has a familar ring to it!
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QF will pay for it. It'll be part of the aircraft deal with Airbus, you can bet on that
Do you really think that just because QF gets it for free that they will pass it on to the "public" when the COULD make money out of it " ?
When a body such as the IPG say "hey... here we are.. we are bending over, do to us what you will...is this far enuff?" .. do you honestly think that QF will say "... no, that's ok, stand up, put your trousers back on, we will pay for your endorsement because it wont COST us ! ... ?????????"
The IPG has , once again, screwed the industry, taken pilots wages back 10 years, and overridden any gains the QF pilots union may have made just to secure the conditions of a select few.
See what happens when you have no backbone from the outset ???....
Had IMPULSE pilots stood up for FAIR wages and conditions from the beginning, then they probably would be getting paid 30-50% more than what they will be shortly.... AND not F**king it up for every wannabe in the future!!!!
and all this to drive a 1900 for 27K!!!!!!!
good one guys!.. what next ???? Cadets to work at Macca's wages???? F/O's to drive toilet trucks as part of the award ???? F/A's to wash planes on their days off ?
the word "SPINELESS" jumps to the forefront of my mnd! as well as "BROWN-NOSE", "CRAWLER" , "GIT" , etc etc.......
please please PLEASE... do yourselves and the industry a favor and DEMAND to be paid what you are worth/entitled to!!!!
Thread Starter
Bunch of schoolgirls-especially you Patriot. Doesn't QF pay for endorsements now?
Impulse has blown all out of the water. Some serious competition too. QF & AIPA and the remnants of the AN A320 community.
The overtime rate will bring Captains up to the 160K mark. Looking at base rates two dimensional.
I think Impulse pilots will stay put for a few years. Then some attrition to well paid jobs abroad. The exodus out of QF the overqualified and highly experienced S/O's.
The sums for the bottom 200 at QF Mainline cruel. Time to Command and what will the state of aviation affairs be at this time? In this case and ambitiously, say around 10 years. Big gamble for the motivated type that make the QF grade!
FatEric
I don't think you realise the ramifications of the stitch up of seniority and the A320 timeframe of introduction. Impulse may not need that many DE Commands. Did AirNZ with it's recent introduction? Sure the numbers different but..
Seat swapping is very cheap for QF considering the deal they have got.
Impulse pilots- either very smart with the above stitch up or, once again, the most fortunate pilots in Australian aviation!
Impulse has blown all out of the water. Some serious competition too. QF & AIPA and the remnants of the AN A320 community.
The overtime rate will bring Captains up to the 160K mark. Looking at base rates two dimensional.
I think Impulse pilots will stay put for a few years. Then some attrition to well paid jobs abroad. The exodus out of QF the overqualified and highly experienced S/O's.
The sums for the bottom 200 at QF Mainline cruel. Time to Command and what will the state of aviation affairs be at this time? In this case and ambitiously, say around 10 years. Big gamble for the motivated type that make the QF grade!
FatEric
I don't think you realise the ramifications of the stitch up of seniority and the A320 timeframe of introduction. Impulse may not need that many DE Commands. Did AirNZ with it's recent introduction? Sure the numbers different but..
Seat swapping is very cheap for QF considering the deal they have got.
Impulse pilots- either very smart with the above stitch up or, once again, the most fortunate pilots in Australian aviation!
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Impulse pilots will get A320 rating free of charge. New pilots will have to pay I think $20000. It would be great if they didn't have to pay. Yes pay is low but what choice did we have, NONE.
Only 9 months ago 10 pilots were having a drink together. We all said we should be with AIPA so the next day we rung them up. What did they say, well its only Qantas mainline because the I in AIPA stands for International and we don't fly international. They told us to join AFAP, some did. I still think most of the pilots would join AIPA if they would let us and the IPG is talking to them to see what they offer.
Only 9 months ago 10 pilots were having a drink together. We all said we should be with AIPA so the next day we rung them up. What did they say, well its only Qantas mainline because the I in AIPA stands for International and we don't fly international. They told us to join AFAP, some did. I still think most of the pilots would join AIPA if they would let us and the IPG is talking to them to see what they offer.
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"Doesn’t Qantas pay for endorsements now”?
Why - because industrially they have little choice. When AN folded and QF expanded rapidly to fill the void, only a small % of Ansett pilots were employed by QF. Type rated/experienced and ready to go but because of dinosaur like industrial baggage, 737 checkies were employed as 744 S/O's. Seniority as a result of strong unions effectively requires QF to pay for endorsements This is madness that only pervades the airline scene in Oz.
This is one benefit QF will get from LCC – employ type rated people to fill left or right seat as the need dictates. Waste little money on training - its already done.
Strong-arm unions have had their day in the Oz airline scene.
Why - because industrially they have little choice. When AN folded and QF expanded rapidly to fill the void, only a small % of Ansett pilots were employed by QF. Type rated/experienced and ready to go but because of dinosaur like industrial baggage, 737 checkies were employed as 744 S/O's. Seniority as a result of strong unions effectively requires QF to pay for endorsements This is madness that only pervades the airline scene in Oz.
This is one benefit QF will get from LCC – employ type rated people to fill left or right seat as the need dictates. Waste little money on training - its already done.
Strong-arm unions have had their day in the Oz airline scene.
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Z force,
I don’t think pilots should have to pay for their own endorsements. Jetstar will easily find type rated guys on the street – Ex AN,Dragon,Gulf, Qatar etc. That’s my whole point – Jetstar could introduce the A320 without having to type rate anybody. Makes a lot of business sense to me.
I don’t think pilots should have to pay for their own endorsements. Jetstar will easily find type rated guys on the street – Ex AN,Dragon,Gulf, Qatar etc. That’s my whole point – Jetstar could introduce the A320 without having to type rate anybody. Makes a lot of business sense to me.
Thread Starter
Eric
QF will get a lot of free training with their order. Why not qualify Impulse drivers for free?
And they will so that leaves 70 Airbus slots.
75% ex-AN 320 F/O's content. So 25 or so interested in Jetstar. I would suggest most ex-AN Captains interested so that number roughly 75ish.
Australians in CX, EK and many others may pay for CCQ to come home.
70 slots and hundreds of takers. I predict a handful of our former AN colleagues employed on the Flight Deck but many elsewhere- Ground Staff, F/A's ect.
Strong arm unions have had their day. Remember though, you can only vote with your feet for so long, somebody will have to draw a line in the sand. We can't, jail here, but the guys at home can.
golow
It is a shame there was little help from AIPA. Learn from their mistakes.
One day a few Impulse guys will wake up on a dreary Victorian day, look at the window over the wind swept Sunbury plains, not be able to face another 4 sector day(no overnights) and think there a better life .
There is and the Airbus pilot market abroad is strengthening.
Strengthenen it further! Suck up some of the demand. Fill the slots with qualified Airbus drivers from abroad. Not just ex-AN but CX, EK etc.
In a small way you will help pilot conditions.
AN collapsed and QF replaced the displaced AN drivers from elsewhere. Just look at this in the context of pilot market forces and no other way. A pool of highly qualified pilots allowed crappy outfits like Jetconnect flourish.
All of a sudden QF pilots uncompetitive! Jetconnect-VB the benchmark and Impulse the resultant.
The market will serve you but you must serve the market. Recruit the qualified Airbus drivers slots 130 onward!
Don't have a long haul view of the world.
QF will get a lot of free training with their order. Why not qualify Impulse drivers for free?
And they will so that leaves 70 Airbus slots.
75% ex-AN 320 F/O's content. So 25 or so interested in Jetstar. I would suggest most ex-AN Captains interested so that number roughly 75ish.
Australians in CX, EK and many others may pay for CCQ to come home.
70 slots and hundreds of takers. I predict a handful of our former AN colleagues employed on the Flight Deck but many elsewhere- Ground Staff, F/A's ect.
Strong arm unions have had their day. Remember though, you can only vote with your feet for so long, somebody will have to draw a line in the sand. We can't, jail here, but the guys at home can.
golow
It is a shame there was little help from AIPA. Learn from their mistakes.
One day a few Impulse guys will wake up on a dreary Victorian day, look at the window over the wind swept Sunbury plains, not be able to face another 4 sector day(no overnights) and think there a better life .
There is and the Airbus pilot market abroad is strengthening.
Strengthenen it further! Suck up some of the demand. Fill the slots with qualified Airbus drivers from abroad. Not just ex-AN but CX, EK etc.
In a small way you will help pilot conditions.
AN collapsed and QF replaced the displaced AN drivers from elsewhere. Just look at this in the context of pilot market forces and no other way. A pool of highly qualified pilots allowed crappy outfits like Jetconnect flourish.
All of a sudden QF pilots uncompetitive! Jetconnect-VB the benchmark and Impulse the resultant.
The market will serve you but you must serve the market. Recruit the qualified Airbus drivers slots 130 onward!
Don't have a long haul view of the world.
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AS much as I hate to pay out for an endorcement can you really blame the companies?
If JetStar, VB, JetConnect etc were to pay you for your endorcement is it an investment or an expense for the company or the pilot?
I would argue that it is an investment for a pilot to gain an endorcement as it can lead to a job with a high wage, better security or lifestyle (particularly if it is paid back over three years VB style).
For a company it is just wasted cashflow because at the moment there is no way of protecting their investment. And most importantly, the pilot can take the endorcemnt with him/her to another airline but an airline cannot tranfer the training to another employee.
The reason I say this is that JetStar could endorce you on an Airbus and the next day you could leave for another airline (Brunei, Dragon etc) and the company has just seen $40,000 walk out the door with no recourse. How many pilots have untaken training with regional airlines only to walk out the door a month latter when QF or CX have called.
If the bond system was enforceable, and enforceable not just in Australia but worldwide, then it would be a different agrument but at the moment this is the only way companies can protect their investment/cashflow.
Pilots who have undertaken training only to leave for greener pastures would have to shoulder a lot of the blame for the attitude of airline companies around the world.
Can you really blame them?
If JetStar, VB, JetConnect etc were to pay you for your endorcement is it an investment or an expense for the company or the pilot?
I would argue that it is an investment for a pilot to gain an endorcement as it can lead to a job with a high wage, better security or lifestyle (particularly if it is paid back over three years VB style).
For a company it is just wasted cashflow because at the moment there is no way of protecting their investment. And most importantly, the pilot can take the endorcemnt with him/her to another airline but an airline cannot tranfer the training to another employee.
The reason I say this is that JetStar could endorce you on an Airbus and the next day you could leave for another airline (Brunei, Dragon etc) and the company has just seen $40,000 walk out the door with no recourse. How many pilots have untaken training with regional airlines only to walk out the door a month latter when QF or CX have called.
If the bond system was enforceable, and enforceable not just in Australia but worldwide, then it would be a different agrument but at the moment this is the only way companies can protect their investment/cashflow.
Pilots who have undertaken training only to leave for greener pastures would have to shoulder a lot of the blame for the attitude of airline companies around the world.
Can you really blame them?
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The way forward is to stich up the deal, then go for incremental improvements. Management is by nature short sighted. If a moderate rise in pay and conditions will keep industrial harmony and ensure a profit THIS year, they will do it THIS year, and then again NEXT year. Little at a time, and don't price yourself out of the market.
QF staff will be very lucky to keep pace with CPI, let alone make "incremental improvements" as you wrote.They achieve this by keeping the employee groups within the different business units fragmented and competitive against each other. Quite brilliant when you sit back and think about it...
Last edited by Hugh Jarse; 7th Dec 2003 at 07:07.